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Comment by alexgartrell | Hacker News Reader

  > What about the extreme of No Speed Limits on 4 lane 
  > Interstate and rural federal–aid primary two lane highways? 
  > These same fact–based engineers point to the German  > Autobahn, 
  > where, with no speed limits, authorities are consistently
  > reporting lower fatality rates than comparable US highways.

This is an unfair comparison. Getting a driver's license in Germany is much harder than in the US.

http://www.german-way.com/driving.html

(I am not a German, and only have the slightest idea of the actual laws from German class in high school.)

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I also hear that some of the laws are stricter. The Germans apparently heavily enforce things like passing on the correct side, and people going too slow for the lane that they are in (e.g. those people on US highways that immediately go into the far left lane and sit there going under the speed limit forcing everyone to pass them on the right rather than the left).

Very true. Driving the Autobahn from FRA to Bonn in my rental Mercedes A90 (small and weak) was a nerve-wracking introduction to Germany. In my experience, drivers on the right lanes will slam the brakes to let you in if there is a fast driver in the left lane (e.g., a Porsche).

There has also been a lot of talk about adding a speed limit to the Autobahn in order to prevent accidents. However, the very powerful automobile lobby doesn't let it get close to happening.

Speed limits do exist on the Autobahn now. You usually see them in major city interchanges and also when bad weather strikes. They have a very impressive system of automated signals and signs that indicate the (temporary) limits in those cases.

(And I've done the FRA run in rented A-klasse autos as well. You're right...it's an insane experience the first couple of times. But eventually checking the mirrors at the right time becomes habit and you become more comfortable. Coming back to the States is more nerve-wrecking for me now)

> There has also been a lot of talk about adding a speed limit to the Autobahn in order to prevent accidents. However, the very powerful automobile lobby doesn't let it get close to happening.

Yes, the evil lobby, always out to get the little man. Never mind that the Autobahns are safer and have higher capacity than in neighbouring countries with speed limits, and that a majority of the German people are very proud of this.

Try doing the same with seven people + luggage in a ford van (1.8l diesel). It is surreal to be driving 140kph and be passed as if you were standing still.

BTW, if you want a nerve-wracking experience try driving the same setup in Italy.

You don’t drive in the left lane unless you want to pass. You just don’t. When you have passed you immediately switch back to the right or middle lane.

That’s not enforced as such, at least not that I know of, but nobody does it and that largely makes for a pleasant experience all around.

I have no idea why that is the case but it might be that stricter rules have something to do with it. You are not allowed to pass on the right – and that’s definitely strictly enforced. I have actually never seen anybody pass on the right in Germany. It’s consequently in everyone’s best interest to keep the left lane free.

(It’s also not that pleasant to see some lunatic driving 110 miles per hour approaching in the rear view mirror. Another reason to retreat to the right lane as long as you don’t pass.)

It's not enforced because NOBODY does it. I watched a "Cops"-like show where they followed the Autobahn police around and once in a while they did bust someone for not using the lanes properly.

> (It’s also not that pleasant to see some lunatic driving 110 miles per hour approaching in the rear view mirror. Another reason to retreat to the right lane as long as you don’t pass.)

Really? I've witnessed many people in the far left lane that will not move over for someone that is coming up behind them, and grossly exceeding the speed limit. I've personally encountered people that would not move back into the right lane for me even when I flashed my high-beams at them in an attempted to prod them over. (I've even witnessed someone that was so oblivious to the road around him that he stopped at a stop light when there was an ambulance speeding up behind him with sirens going and lights flashing. Needless to say the ambulance hit the brakes and rear-ended him, only for him to get out of the car and look at the ambulance driver with a, "wtf are you doin'?' look on his face.)

My theory is that these people fall into two categories:

* This category: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1147059 . The people that move all the way over into the left lane so that they can feel 'comfortable' and turn off their brain while driving (since they don't have to worry about people merging and other issues).

* The 'vigilantes.' They see you going faster than what they think you should be going, so they are going to be steadfast in denying you passage in your 'lane of choice.' (i.e. I don't like you so I'm not going to do what you want me to) Note that it doesn't matter that you're going within the speed limit, if they think that the speed limit is too high, then they are still going to put up a stink.

[Note: Everything I'm talking about here assumes ideal driving conditions (i.e. no rain, sleet, snow, ice, etc), even my anecdotes all happened in good driving conditions]

I actually think flashing your headlights at someone is going to have the opposite of the intended effect more often than not.

You usually wait for the person to move over on their own. If they don't, you flash your headlamps once or twice.

I'm not talking about speeding up to someone's car within 2 feet of their bumper and flashing your headlamps on and off constantly for 5 minutes before giving up and passing on the right.

This is just a theory about bad left-lane drivers in the U.S. - where I live - but here goes:

Many drivers in the U.S. are uncomfortable driving and using their mirrors, most likely due to how easy it is to get a license and not having to undergo the extensive driver training as is required in Germany.

If you have a 3 lane highway, the middle lane is scary because you have other drivers on both sides of you. The right lane is scary because on-ramps merge with your lane. The left lane is the most comfortable lane because you are buffered on your left side by the median and only have the lane on your right to worry about.

Hence, you switch to the left lane, drive slowly, and stay put. Not to mention - annoy every decent driver stuck behind you.

In Washington State, it is illegal to drive in the left lane on a highway except to pass. They don't enforce it much, but I do know people that have been pulled over for that reason (albeit let off with warnings). As a result, it tends to be the faster lane to travel in. Unfortunately, this isn't the case for all states.

That's exactly my opinion on the matter, I thought my post might be a little long in the tooth if I started going on about that though (since I was only using it as an example).

I've spent quite a bit of time driving in Germany. I have some random observations about German Autobahnen leading to no specific conclusion.

* Autobahns have narrower lanes, and fewer of them relative to US Interstates. The most I've seen is four per side near Berlin. Two is standard, even in fairly high-traffic areas. Three is becoming a little more common than it was a few years ago, but it's still quite rare.

* Lane discipline is usually quite good. Passing on the right is illegal except for in traffic jams, and it's fairly rare that anyone does. Failing to cede the left lane to passing traffic when the right lane in clear is also quite rare.

* Drivers wishing to pass often become impatient with anyone using the left lane to pass at a slightly lower speed than they would prefer.

* Traffic jams are exceedingly common, often due to construction zones, which have even narrower lanes and very low speed limits. During a traffic jam, traffic comes to a stop, and occasionally moves for short periods of time at low speeds. During an extended stop, it is common for drivers to get out of their cars and chat, referred to as an Autobahn party.

* Very slight imperfections in the pavement usually lead to a Straßen shäden (damaged street) sign and soon after, a complete rebuild of that section of highway. It's rare to drive for an hour without encountering a construction zone.

* Most cars drive at speeds between 80 and 90 mph when there is no speed limit. Truck and cars pulling trailers are limited by law to 60 mph. On occasion, a car, usually a high-end German make will drive by in the left lane at around 150 mph.

* I have never seen an accident on an unlimited-speed section of Autobahn.

Compared to the United States (Northern California)

Lane Discipline is almost non-existent. People think nothing of passing on the Right, and it's frequently done (They get used to it during Rush hour Traffic, where you have to pass on the right, and then extend that bad habit to open highway conditions). Most drivers aren't even aware they should cede the left lane to passing traffic - even when the right lane is _completely vacant_. This, by the way, is not an American habit - I understand that drivers from Texas can't stand the poor highway driving habits of Northern Californians (particularly those from the Bay Area)

[Edit - After a few seconds though I realized that the Northern Californians unwillingness to cede the left lane is probably a major contributing factor the frequency of people passing on the right - the two behaviors have probably co-evolved]

I would add that German standards for auto maintenance are much higher than American ones. There are regular inspections (yearly?) to enforce these standards.

I wonder if the authors of the study would be as on-board for intrusive inspections as they are for removing speed limits?

you have to renew your "TÜV" (the vehicle is safe and in good condition) and your "AU" (the pollution nis in certain limits; helps detec engine failures etc)). every two years. i think for every week or two you#re over your due date the fine rises up to a point where they take the vehicle of the road until it passes the inspection.

My experiences are the same as yours, but you've clearly spent more time there than me.

I would say the two greatest differences between German Authobahns and US interstate traffic comes down to two factors: - road condition and maintenance. The Autobahn roads are near perfect in design, drainage, signage and smoothness - driver attitude : as you noted, 'undertaking' or passing on the right is not only illegal, it is considered to be rude. Someone driving faster than you is in a hurry, not throwing down a challenge to you. You let them on their way, not try and impede their progress. A single flash of the lights to a slower vehicle to move right is not considered rude. - I would disagree on the average 80-90 mph on the unrestricted sections. I would estimate that most occupants of the 'fast' lane in ordinary vehicles would be doing 100-120 mph.

Another bonus of the Autobahn system is that 'normal' cars are more popular than SUV's because you just can't drive SUV's that fast, unless you have a high-end Mercedes, Porsche or BMW. Having an artificially lower speed limit encourages oversized vehicles because the speeds are low enough that their mass and frontal area don't affect progress and fuel consumption as much.

While I would say the study probably has some merit, it's very important with these time based studies to allow for the increased driver survival rate in more modern cars. I did not see that with this study, but it can be a crucial factor.

I don't think the Autobahnen are perfect in design and maintenance; in many areas, I think they don't have enough lanes for the amount of traffic they're required to handle. Freeway traffic jams are more common in Germany than in any other country I've spent a significant amount of time driving in. I would also classify the maintenance as excessive; they're so eager to repair minor problems with the road that there are severe delays resulting from road construction on a significant portion of drives over an hour.

WRT speeds in the fast lane: I wasn't talking about the average for the fast lane. I was talking about the average for all lanes. It's common to see economy cars driving at similar speeds to the trucks.

I think fuel prices have more to do with the unpopularity of SUVs than any other factor. Regular gasoline here in Florida costs around $2.50/gallon. In Germany, the price is around $7/gallon.

>During an extended stop, it is common for drivers to get out of their cars and chat, referred to as an Autobahn party.

Awesome! I feel sad and deprived now, given that we don't do that in America.

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