Why you hate Comic Sans | Hacker News Reader

Why you hate Comic Sans

designforhackers.com

The article is really the antithesis of a good critique.

The comparison to Helvetica and Garamond misses the point of Comic Sans, which is to be a casual, friendly and playful (as opposed to professional, austere, serious, business-like) font that looks more handwritten than typographed (like the handwritten captions in pulp comics of yore).

Even the kerning and height issues they point can be explained for that. Perfect kerning and proportions would ruin the illusion of it being handwritten and childlike.

As to why all the hate, it's easy: middle class people with any "artistic" or "creative" inspirations (and I use the term loosely) will jump at the first chance to feel more sophisticated than the great unwashed masses. And designers are the very epitome of that crowd [1].

And most will just jump on any bandwagon related to such a cause (notice the hundreds of anti-Comic Sans blog posts, articles, even t-shirts), without thinking the issue thoroughly and trying to understand neither the original intent nor how and why people actually use the font in practice (which is even more important).

The real question to ask is not why designers and hipsters "hate" it, but why the huge "unwanted masses" adopted it with such eagerness. But that would imply that the average designer also has something to learn from the people, instead of preaching his dictums (which most of the time are not tied to any science or real world observations at all) of "what should work" and what "they should like" to them.

[1] The same people that, in their web incarnation, blathered on and on about "semantic markup", missing the point of both "semantic" -- a word that they repeated as parrots from one another after they learned it from a few misguided trend-setters -- and "markup", which is not supposed to be where you convey semantics). This, now mostly subdued trend, kept the web 5 to 10 years behind -- thank god for SPAs, flex and grid layouts and the like.

To be fair the bandwagon started rolling for good-ish reason. For ages (probably still) Windows lacked any decent headline font, which meant a lot of shit got put into comic sans that shouldn't have. There used to be a blog full of funeral announcements and pink-slips printed in comic sans. You take a crap ____ (font in this case, but word/joke/phrase anything) and over use it and over use it in wildly inappropriate ways and it starts engendering hate real quick.

"For ages (probably still) Windows lacked any decent headline font"

There are lots of decent fonts on Windows suitable for headlines. In fact, a decade ago (2005), Microsoft released their clear type font collection: six fonts designed by well-known type designers (the fonts are Calibri, Cambria, Candara, Consolas, Constantia, Corbel)

So the choice is certainly there, but Comic Sans is popular among non-designers because of it's informal, friendly handwriting appearance.

I think the original article is unfair to compare Comic Sans, an informal script font, to a formal Serif and Sans Serif font. It would be better to choose another informal script font for comparison and to explain why one is better than the other.

I think designers tend to overestimate how much the average end user cares about their font choice. If you can avoid using that old English font or any of the ones that look like cursive handwriting, you're doing well enough for 99% of the audience. The world would get along just fine if all we had were Times New Roman, Consolas, Comic Sans, and maybe a "serious" sans serif one.

Design has a longer history than computers, so it's dangerous to approach things from a pure computer perspective as you have here. It's tempting to think that design is just superfluous puffery, but that is not the case. Design is about improving communication and usability, it differs from art in that it requires some concrete purpose (even if that purpose is aesthetic).

If, as you suggest, we only had four typefaces, yes, we would get along fine. However pretty soon a bored person would create a new typeface, and that new typeface would grab everyone's attention and thus be a huge competitive advantage. So you see, a four-typeface world is just not a stable state.

Another very important thing to recognize about design is that the "user caring about font choice" has absolutely nothing to do with design. Design does its job unconsciously. Of course anyone is free to critique anything, whether or not they know anything about design, they are still free to state their thoughts and preferences. But the designer's goal is not for any sizable chunk of their audience to recognize and applaud their font choice; that's just not what design is about.

Comic sans is a bit less readable but not that much for short passages. It's certainly not enough to justify hatred.

Design is a way of demonstrating social class. Its rules don't have to make sense as long as they're useful for showing that you're a member of the class that cares about design and thinks that certain designs are good. They also don't need to be consciously understood. Font choice demonstrates social class whether or not the audience understands how it works. It's one of the reasons why it's important in business to hire a good designer.

So while certain font choices may be more legible and designers may use legibility to rationalize them, that's less important than demonstrating that you're one of those people who gets design. This causes subtle differences to be magnified since it's about showing allegiance.

So when someone chooses comic sans they may be ignorant, but what are they ignorant about? A well-known social rule. They may also be using it either deliberately or unconsciously as a way of demonstrating they're not a member of the social classes that "get" good design.

So, personally, I've learned to be more forgiving of "bad" design, and also "bad" spelling and grammar, even though I try to get it right myself. I don't want to be that judgmental about social class.

Very interesting perspective you bring, I can't say I disagree with anything you've said. From my perspective, most things people hate don't justify hatred because honestly the emotion of hatred is meant to be deployed in more high stakes scenarios, a good deal of which have been removed from our modern sanitized society (especially—to your point—for the middle to upper classes). People get angry about all kinds of ridiculous nonsense.

That said, I don't think design is primarily a social construct. There is actual meat to design. Design can communicate social constructs, but it's not some kind of insider's club for the upper class. There's a basic barrier to entry, but it's no more exclusive than any other form of higher education, which these days is lower than ever.

I agree with the sentiment of the parent post.

Regarding why Comic Sans is so popular

Try a simple exercise if you are on Windows:

1) Imagine you are writing something that is purposefully not professional or serious looking.

2) Open your text editor and paste/type one headline and some text

3) Format with a font that does not look serious or professional

See the problem? There is simply no alternative to Comic Sans, that's why it's the first choice whenever someone is looking for a font other than the classics, in fact Comic Sans is already a classic...

I love these free comic fonts.

http://www.blambot.com/

Yeah blambot saved me from comic sans a lot back when I need to make club-fliers on a regular basis.

> Even the kerning and height issues they point can be explained for that. Perfect kerning and proportions would ruin the illusion of it being handwritten and childlike.

Added to this, it is often the only font on a computer that has an 'open 4' which is why a grade 2 teacher I know uses and prefers it for worksheets, since it's much easier for kids to replicate and distinguish an open 4 from a hand-printed 9.

You're right, Comic Sans hatred is partially motivated by a designer's desire to advertise their refined taste. And Comic Sans, reeking of diapers and toddler saliva, is also offensive to a freshly urban-outfitted adult.

But the masses also use Times Roman and Helvetica, a lot, which are okay choices, and you don't see hipster movements against them. The above critique is totally solid on the reasons why Comic Sans does have real flaws, even given its design goals.

When desktop publishing met a mass audience, none of the other fonts met these users' needs. Comic Sans has open counters, which is good for legibility. And many home users want signage or communication with a more informal feel.

To their credit, Microsoft figured out that their users needed these things and polished up something that they were already working on. It wasn't a perfect job, but I'm not sure what other options they had used at the time. At the time, I think Adobe and MS were still in a format war, and few fonts could meet Microsoft's demanding requirements for on-screen legibility with low-end computers.

Comic Sans was perfect for Microsoft Comic Chat [1], described in David Kurlander's SIGGRAPH paper [2] and published by Microsoft for Internet Explorer in 1996. It was used to publish a synchronized streaming audio, text and comic strip version of NPR’s CarTalk show [3], and in 1998 to produce a web comic named Jerk City [4]. Jim Woodring drew some of the Comic Chat characters and background artwork! [5]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Comic_Chat

[2] http://kurlander.net/DJ/Pubs/SIGGRAPH96.pdf

[3] http://kurlander.net/DJ/Videos/CarTalkComicChatVideo.shtml

[4] https://www.jerkcity.com/

[5] http://alchetron.com/Jim-Woodring-913512-W

The masses are more likely to use Arial than Helvetica, and that gets almost as much stick as Comic Sans.

Of course the more advanced hipster can be snooty about Helvetica too if need be:

http://www.fontbureau.com/nhg/

You must have worked with some pretty bad designers in the past to have that much contempt for them.

Or just read one too many articles like this one .

Or just read one too many articles like this one.

I don't have "contempt". I just try to understand their behavior, like I do for other fields, including my own (which might also exhibit similar behavior in other issues).

And what I see is often a contempt for the designer-ignorant layman.

All the usual caveats apply: what I say is not applicable to absolutely, no exceptions, 100% of designers, but mostly to the particular subculture/demographic we talk about here: Western/US designers from the young/urban/hipster population (which makes for the majority of those of them posting their opinions on design issues on the web).

This statement is itself a sweeping, unsupported generalization, a stereotype-based bit of elitist snobbery in exactly the fashion that it itself describes. Perfectly self-reflexive. Could it possibly be an accident?

> As to why all the hate, it's easy: middle class people with any "artistic" or "creative" inspirations (and I use the term loosely) will jump at the first chance to feel more sophisticated than the great unwashed masses. And designers are the very epitome of that crowd.

Blaming the overwrought hatred of Comic Sans entirely on the sneering bourgeoisie is just as silly as blaming it on the great unwashed masses. (Which this article did not do.)

I don't see anyone else complaining about it.

You've checked up on every person who doesn't like Comic Sans, and found that every one of them is middle-class with smug artistic pretensions?

It seems more likely that you've circularly defined "sneering bourgeois" as "doesn't like Comic Sans" and vice versa.

We shipped a game called The Sims that used Comic Sans all throughout, that sold pretty well in spite of the font. In case you can't stand to read Comic Sans with your eyes, I also made an external screen scraping utility called Simplifier that reads Comic Sans text off the screen, and catalogs and recites the product descriptions with a speech synthesizer. [1]

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Imu1v3GecB8&feature=youtu.be...

I really don't mind comic sans. I notice it, because it's cool to hate it and it gets a lot of attention. But really I don't find it terrible.

Edit: kerning, small text readability, etc are all stretching it a bit. The main reasons are -- overuse and unprofessional look. I wouldn't use it in a resume, but otherwise I don't hate or even mind it.

This, and the same for papyrus. It is everywhere.

No, no, the cool thing to do now is to defend it. You claim that critics just don't understand its purpose, even if they mention it multiple times and are only criticising misuse. Then you use it ironically in your professional presentations to show that you are above the hoi polloi, both of today and of 15 years ago.

You know what I also hate? Popovers on websites asking for my email address. I get it, you read somewhere that you‘re supposed to build an email list to grow your audience. Just let me read in peace.

I also hate Youtube embeds that won't fullscreen without watching the video on Youtube.

I assumed it was a YouTube embed, but it wouldn't load because I don't have flash. I guess I'll never get to see this guy's amazing presentation.

I simply cannot take anything written on a "design" website seriously when it's filled with 1 full page pop up and another half page pop up.

One of my CS professors had us writing papers, and we got extra points if it was in comic sans. I had to specifically install a ms fonts package for it. Ever since I've liked it, but don't actually use it. I think the whole thing surrounding comic sans is incredibly strange and I'm pretty sure I'm missing some context or something.

It's the same as with Java, PHP, ketchup, strip malls, pop music, professional wrestling, etc. which are usually criticized with minimal mental effort. The opinion is used as a signal that you're not "one of them," that is, a commoner, though to a thinking person they establish you as exactly that, somebody who is incapable of nuanced thinking.

This is too true. Best is when the opinions on these are formed with no previous experience with it. I have to use Perl at work and whenever someone finds out they say "I'm sorry that you have to use that terrible language!" Sure, I would prefer to use Python, but Perl has some useful features that other languages don't do as well which is why I use it. Conveniently, nobody who comments to me about Perl has ever actually used it. Same with when I have used Java in the past.

Designer Craig Rozynski has created a new version of Comic Sans, which fixes many (most?) of the typographical problems pointed out in this article: http://comicneue.com/

There's a good interview with Rozynski on the subject: http://www.creativereview.co.uk/cr-blog/2014/april/the-neue-...

Eh, the bold is alright but I think the regular version loses one of Comic Sans' most important qualities: it doesn't develop weird/anemic proportions when used at large sizes or in all caps.

and personally I think the 'e' is too aggressive.

Hmmm, I think the premise is way off-base here. People don't even hate Comic Sans... they hate how often it's used inappropriately.

The article tries to construct this huge overwrought analysis of the font itself, but the font is fine. It's the tone-deaf way that people use Comic Sans that causes ridicule.

No, lots and lots of people really do hate Comic Sans, independent of use.

In my opinion, the real reason Comic Sans is bad has nothing to do with the actual design of Comic Sans. The simple fact is that it gets annoying to read significant amounts of text if they are in fonts if they deviate too far from the normal standards. Fonts that try to emulate handwritten cursive, for example, are even more annoying.

It's just that of the fonts that most people have pre-installed, Comic Sans may be unique in terms of being in the danger zone where it's almost normal enough that people try to use it for actual documents, but different enough that people forced to read those documents get irritated.

This article is more along the lines of "Arial is bad," which may be true in terms of font design, but isn't the sort of thing normal people are going to go around wearing t-shirts about.

I'd give a simpler answer - because it looks like a kid's handwriting.

We used it quite a bit in the 90's when we ran a 0-3 child/family program for just the reason you gave.

That's the intent though, which completely flew over the "critics" (and I use the term loosely) head...

No, not really. The problem is people using it in places where a kid-handwriting font makes no sense.

That's what you say the problem is, and I could agree, but TFA never makes such a distinction.

Because we're social creatures and we like to belittle out-groups to make ourselves feel special?

Comic Sans is a terrible font, even when used for its intended purpose. It has a really off-kilter awkwardness that doesn't evoke any sense of youth or playfulness.

The perfect argument against Comic Sans is Chalkboard [1], a font created by Apple to have the same look but fixes everything wrong with it. Vincent Connare, the creator of Comic Sans, uses it as an example of how great Comic Sans is, saying "if Comic Sans is bad why make something similar." [2] But they made something similar because it was bad and needed fixing. Chalkboard shows that the concept of a casual handwriting/comic font is valid, it's just that Comic Sans blew the execution.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chalkboard_(typeface) [2] http://www.connare.com/whycomic.htm

I get it, Comic Sans is tacky. But so is the fetishizing of Helvetica.

At least Helvetica has a whole movie about it! [1]

"It's hard to evaluate it. It's like being asked what you think about off-white paint. It's just there. It's hard to get your head around something that's that big."

"And most people who use Helvetica use it because it's ubiquitious. It's like going to McDonalds instead of thinking about food. Because it's there. It's on every street corner. So let's eat crap, because it's on the corner."

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7JkpYgjbYRg

I knew Design[tm] had won the world when a generic fast food joint near me had words like "Burger" and "Chicken" styled in classic designer fonts and sandblasted into frosted glass on its windows.

Definitely no Comic Sans.

And there's the dystopian generic food of Repo Man [1].

[1] http://i.imgur.com/w6ODNaQ.png

The most entertaining bit about the movie The Host (based on the Stephenie Meyer novel) was the fact that in a world ruled by Souls -- alien beings who possess humans and are incapable of dishonesty -- you go to a store marked "store". You pick up a bag of potato chips marked "potato chips", a jug of milk marked "milk" and a can of chicken soup marked "chicken soup". You walk out without paying for anything because the owners of "store" know you won't take more than you need and are providing for everybody.

Oh yeah, all the labels are in Helvetica bold. Anything fanvier might be a way to get a dishonest advantage.

sorry in advance for posting a contrary opinion, but this runs contrary to "both sides" of what I hear in the debate and I feel like it's worth sharing, I can't be the only one...:

if you want to make a "warning" sign, like "Caution: electrical hazard", my claim is that it will get noticed MORE and serve as a better warning if you display it in Comic Sans. Reason, it looks like an actual person went to the trouble to warn you, as opposed to some overly cautious liability dodging corporate (or OSHA or insurance company) warning.

And I'm not saying it's perfect or doesn't have a lot of other fails, but it's my goto font for signage because it's ubiquitous and it gets the message across. I'm mystified by people who only wish to be warned in ... in what, serif or sans, I don't even know?

I don’t hate Comic Sans and never understood all the hate, it a rather nice font actually.

It's my goto font when typesetting speech bubbles for my dank memes. Or when I want to give another designer an aneurism.

People just need to chill out. The more people use Comic Sans, the better a pro-designers work looks against the "corporate-but-also-fun powerpoint" background radiation.

I've never before seen someone making the mistake of saying 'Legos' go so far as to capitalise it and append a registered trademark icon. LEGO is a trademark; 'LEGOS' is not.

Is it just me or is Comic Sans such an easy target that it seems silly to be elitist about it? It's like if a bunch of film critics kept bringing up how bad Batman and Robin was.

Well, the internet critics like to bring up how bad Batman and Robin was as a movie. There's a reason 'Bat Credit Card' became a meme back in the day.

But yeah, it's an easy target.

Meanwhile, over in Lobsters, the OpenBSD devs claim responsibility for the recent wave of Comic Sans attacks:

https://lobste.rs/s/0dxurz/new_hat_request_system/comments/p...

This was a really long, un-needed technical way of saying "it was cool once but it got tired with the times."

Just because this designer thinks that Comic Sans sucks, doesn't mean it didn't have a place all those years ago.

The writer said quite clearly that it did have a place all those years ago.

http://www.mcsweeneys.net/articles/im-comic-sans-asshole

Used it for years for a child care related newsletter - it is a nice readable informal font. Worked well for the audience.

there's nothing funny about comic sans

in my experience, people hate it because it is used so often in places where it is inappropriate.

a lot of the analysis here is authoritative but off the mark as well... that e is the most readable letter when blurred to me, and its the properties which are criticised which make it the case.

that is it, nothing more complicated than that.

I couldn't continue reading this article after the third popup on mobile. Idiotic site design.

I hated it since I knew it was wrong when I used it for an paper in 3rd grade

I love comic sans, I find it very readable.

It's a font.

Comic Sams actually shipped with Internet Explorer 3-5 and Win98+. The font was meant for Comic Chat which came with IE3-5, an IRC chat application. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Comic_Chat

You have to install IE on Win95 to get the font. IE4 included the Win95 shell upgrade which meant it turned Win95 to look like Win98. So a lot of people installed it.

This was the funniest thing to me, CERN released the Higgs boson finding in Comic Sans http://www.theverge.com/2012/7/4/3136652/cern-scientists-com...

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