Apply HN: Eat My Dust - Home testing for dangerous materials | Hacker News Reader

Apply HN: Eat My Dust - Home testing for dangerous materials

96 pointshagope69 comments

Problem: Is our home free of poisons and toxins? Idea: At home testing for dangerous materials; customers fill a vial with vacuum dust and mail it to us. Our lab will test for lead, asbestos, or other containments that may be lurking in your home. We’ll also test your water for lead, mercury, pharmaceuticals, and other toxins. Customers can then work to improve their environment and test on a regular basis. Market: Anyone who lives under a roof and cares about their family’s health.

About Us: Husband (data engineer) and wife (bioinformatist). I’ve worked in startups and big companies solving data problems, my wife has built LIMS (lab information management systems) for pharma and bio-tech companies. We live in the SF Bay area, and we’re always concerned about the safety of our environment for ourselves and daughter, but haven’t been able to validate that our home is safe to live in.

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* If I had this idea here's how I'd approach to validating it.

  Solve the problem for yourself

Google and you'll find that there is [mold inspection], [lead inspection], water tests, and both professional and direct-to-consumer versions of the above.

I would get a professional mold inspector, and compare the results to direct-to-consumer lab tests like http://www.amazon.com/MyMoldDetective-MMD100-Mold-Test-Kit/d...

Same for other tests.

I'd expect this to take maybe 20 hours of billable time doing research and logistics, $2-3k for inspections and tests, and 1 month of calendar time.

  Research the market

Look at keyword search volumes. For example, using free version of https://www.semrush.com/ we get

  Keyword Volume
  mold inspection       4,400
  mold test kit	        8,100
  lead inspection         260
  lead paint test kit	1,900

Figure 4 billable hours doing that

* If I were considering investing into such company the questions I'd ask myself would be:

  * would this area be a passion for the founders
  * is this a good market
  * can the founders execute on this idea

Based on the info presented and my priors my answers would be:

  * No
  * Yes
  * No

So what I would say would be:

"This is a good idea and the market. I think it's a little to early for you to raise money. Consider solving the problem for yourself and better understanding existing solutions. I'd love to chat again once you are further ahead."

What do you offer over this?

http://www.amazon.com/WaterSafe-Water-Test-Kit-Lead/dp/B000Q...

What kind of guarantees can you deliver that you're not yet another company without accountability- this is important stuff, and accountability for correctness is kind of a big deal.

The array of brands offering home test kits on amazon is incredible. I don't know any of them, and I don't know their reliability; nor do I know enough about this space to select the correct one. How do you differentiate yourself?

This seems to test water rather than dust.

I suspect that the point here is the ratings and reviews the water test has gotten. That it doesn't work for a lot of users and they're simply out the money.

> We’ll also test your water for lead, mercury, pharmaceuticals, and other toxins.

OP is also offering water testing capabilities.

n.b., this is a great idea, but I really want a way to trust that the lab is doing the Right Thing, and false positives/negatives are acceptably low.

3M sells these lead test swabs for surfaces: http://amzn.com/B009NQNL0I

Once again, not exactly "analyzing your dust" but I think this is the current consumer-grade solution to the problem of "are there dangerous levels of lead in my wall paint/ceramics/etc?"

Convenience is a big seller. Instead of having to sift through the range of available options, pick them all out, get them in the mail, open them, read the instructions, run them and hope you don't mess up, interpret the results and hope you don't mess up, and then write down all the results without getting anything confused, you just mail off a bag full of dust and a small can of water. Even if you're exactly as unreliable than the DIY amazon offerings, you could easily save an entire day with the all-in-one service.

Having reliability seems more important when it comes to these things than being able to iterate fast.

I'd say both are important. Lower budget people would probably prefer a quicker cheaper less reliable test while higher budget people would prefer a more reliable and in depth test. I'm sure there will be cross over but my intuition is that maybe a third of each category would cross over, so by offering that alternative would expand your potential customer base by 40% using the previous assumption. Also, it'd be interesting if you could keep an anonymous database of any harmful results by area code with an easy interface on your website for people to search. You can add some call to action to get people to search their zip code and see what harmful substances were found in areas near them. This could lead to higher sales if there are negative results found. Maybe you can follow the same type of strategy where you ask them for their zip code and you can show them information of the risks in their area based off of scraped data from their municipal websites. I know my city has certain metrics that fail every few months, so providing information like this would be a great way to get them paranoid and want to follow up with a test from you.

Of course, the next logic step after the test, whether something harmful was found our not, is to send them information on items such as water filters from a company you partner with for affiliate advertising. Then for failed tests like mold or lead, you can send affiliate advertising material for lead and mold removal. Basically, send them to a page on your website with the same information as this pamphlet you sent them and on it you'll have affiliate links to earn extra money.

Lead is just one of many toxins in water...

Many of those tests are actually more likely to generate false positives than false negatives; I had our home tested by a professional with XRF gear, and his tests indicated much lower levels of lead (late Victorian house, so we knew we had some) than the swab tests suggested.

The main problem I see with this concept is that lead levels vary throughout living spaces, so you would need multiple samples. I'd think multiple, labeled, swab cloths would be more effective from a testing perspective.

I'd look into/think about: what happens when the kit does not detect something that then causes harm to someone.

Is that likely? Could it happen? What might happen legally?

I'd likely consider buying something like that, though, if it were cheap.

Something that would be positive: testing for 'unknown unknowns' - people are becoming more conscious of things like radon, but if this test were likely to pick up a wide range of random stuff, it'd be more useful.

If it's an unknown, how do you test for it?

I mean that it's something most people might not think to test for, not truly unknown.

It could just test for many things and the "data science" could do some anomaly detection.

like asymptomatic disease...

Exactly, I don't know what's in the air we're breathing or what my 1.5 yr old daughter is ingesting after playing on the floor and eating with her hands

I would use this service regularly. I would recommend it to everyone, and I would be deeply interested in the results. I am a woodworker and do a fair amount of work with found materials. If simple toxin tests were available I would love to be able to regularly run test on material dust that I work with (MDF, hardwoods, other sheet good material).

I also live in SF, in an older home. I would love to know what kind of stuff comes out of our aging carpets - how much of the dust that I vacuum up is the carpet. what is the average makeup of the dust over time, i.e. is the dust changing to include more mold? Less? are my cleaning routines helping?

I have a mold allergy, detecting mold spores would be really good. Existing tests are not great, and not user friendly.

Companies like Zillow might also be good recommendation engines, since most people buying a house probably want to know the answer to these questions.

This sounds like a great idea, here are some thoughts about it that you could use to fine tune the pitch

1. For people who use some kind of a cleaning service, the cleaners usually bring their own vacuum cleaner. In this case the owner might be unable to send you the dust. Would be interesting to look into what fraction of your target audience falls under this category.

2. Would be nice if the service took the vacuum model number and sent out a box with a vacuum bag every n months, where the user could take their used vacuum bag put it in the box and mail it back, and use the new bag in the vacuum.

3. Could this be refactored into some kind of device that one could fit into the vacuum? This way there would be no headache of mailing bags out.

4. Whats the legality of sending out bags containing potential amounts of asbestos / toxins etc?

> 1. For people who use some kind of a cleaning service, the cleaners usually bring their own vacuum cleaner. In this case the owner might be unable to send you the dust. Would be interesting to look into what fraction of your target audience falls under this category.

This could actually be a feature. Sell to the CLEANING services, have them offer your service as an add-on package so that people who have their apartments cleaned (e.g. people with disposable income) can find out what exactly is being cleaned up and what additional measures may be needed.

That could work.

The problem with home environment testing is the expense of implementing the mitigations. That doesn't mean this business idea isn't great, but a nice twist to the website would be to acknowledge this hard reality up front.

You could have a graphic of a home, all kinds of UI inputs:

* SQ FT

* Geographic location

* Flooring type

* etc...

Then a list of potential problems. The user starts to enable the problems they may have, and a Turbo Tax money ticker starts rolling. Then they adjust sliders for mitigation options. More money counter ticking.

If the cost if too high, sure I might not even order the test. But the sale would be consultative from the beginning, rather than the typical alarming approach.

What experience do you have building out a lab? Can you make this work by sending the samples to an outside lab until you have traction?

How much do you know about this industry? Are there regulations you need to meet? Who are the established big players, why aren't they doing this?

How are you going to do this better than anyone else?

How will you find customers?

samples would have to be sent to an external service lab.

@nuna has extensive lab experience and just as importantly, managing the vast amounts of data that labs produce...initially we would partner with a lab until there is a need to do it in house

How would you compete with things like http://www.amazon.com/Asbestos-Test-Includes-Postage-Fees/dp... and http://www.homedepot.com/p/LABTECH-H2O-OK-Plus-Complete-Wate...

I assume that OP's service would test for more than just one thing.

From the Home Depot description:

The H2O OK Plus Complete Water Analysis Kit is the most complete way to ensure your drinking water is safe and free of 13 water conditions and contaminants including bacteria, pesticides and lead, a total of 23 tests. This complete, easy to use kit provides all containers needed. It gives the user instant results. Included 2 tests each for total chlorine, total hardness, iron, pH, total alkalinity, copper, nitrates and nitrites; 1-test each for lead, total coliform bacteria and pesticides with detailed instructions to test for iron bacteria and hydrogen sulfide

You might consider leveraging the data science component to help target the testing. For example, based on location, house age, construction type (basement/slab/etc.), run the numbers and balance the risk of exposure against the cost of a test. Then recommend "For your house, lead in the ground soil and asbestos in the shingles are the highest risk."

See, for example, this (unfortunately now defunct) radon risk website: http://www.columbia.edu/cu/pr/00/01/radon.html

Data science might also help you recommend where to sample.

Trouble with all this, of course, is collecting enough data to start making useful recommendations.

Excellent idea. You sold me by the second or third sentence.

Ignore anything you read from anyone else here: put it up and start making sales. Today.

Go go go go go.

I second this - I would buy this today if I could.

This would likely sell even if it had no practical utility. The actual product is a neutral-party validation of someone's life choices.

Did I make a huge and expensive mistake in deciding to buy this house? Here's $50. Be honest.

No. Your house is not going to kill you, your kids, or your pets, within 99.6% certainty.

Awesome. Best $50 I ever spent.

I would never want to build a product or service just to collect people's money with false claims. This idea would have to be highly valuable and affordable for many people in order to be successful.

That's just it. They are not false claims. You're doing actual testing for actual home health hazards.

But the sort of person who would buy your testing service is also the sort of person that does not buy houses that typically have such hazards in them. You are mostly going to be validating subjective emotional impressions with objective empirical evidence. It's a very powerful feeling to have someone else prove without a doubt that your gut feeling was correct.

For a small minority, you will actually be identifying real household dangers, so it's a win-win business.

I love this idea and really want you to find a way to succeed, but certain aspects of this idea have risks you need to weigh.

I can only comment on lead, because I've had home lead testing done by a professional. The worry I have with lead is that encouraging vacuuming for sample collection could conceivably cause lead contamination to spread. We were told by our tester that if we attempted to clean problem areas ourselves, to only use water and disposable rags to avoid spreading lead dust.

Our lead tester used an XRF analyzer (these devices are expensive), which uses X-rays and requires no dust sampling. He could simply point it anywhere and see precisely where all the lead was.

I wonder if it would be feasible to include a packet of special wipes instead of a single dust vial. Then users could individually wipe and label by room, and ship each wipe in a separate, sealed, labeled, plastic envelope. This could solve any dust contamination issues, but I suppose it's possibly harder to test for contaminants from a wipe than a vial.

Will a single vial of vacuum dust be representative of a whole dwelling? Will you be able to detect mold spores and other airborne contaminants which cause respiratory problems? It might be tough to get a good sample vacuum dust into a small vial in homes where the majority of vacuum canister contents consists of pet hair.

To expand on this, are there good models for translating concentrations of toxic substances in vacuum cleaner dust into actual exposure of people who live or work in those spaces? It seems like it would be a lot easier to get people scared (or alternately complacent) than to offer lay-persons useful information.

I would buy this right now if you had it. Hurry up please :-)

When we moved into a new house we noticed the air ducts were spewing out strange particles. I called around to see if there is an agency that could test if it's dangerous and the short answer was "we'd only test if we know what we're looking for". If you price this reasonably ($100 or less) and are able to test for a range of substances, I would buy your product in a heartbeat. Don't listen to the nay-sayers, launch a test kit with a list of things you're checking for and see how the market responds. You can try the home buyers / home owners / parents markets, as well as restaurants, hospitals, you name it.

Also shouldn't home inspections when purchasing warn about asbestos and others similar risks? I suppose many people rent and the landlords may know or not care.

This seems like a service business and not necessarily a startup. But on second thought, maybe there's a hardware device that could test everything wherever you went: air and water. Perhaps even you could scrape a chip of paint into it. Now that's something I would strongly consider buying. You could take it when traveling to ensure there are pollutants in your water. As a (hopefully) future parent, I worry about my kids being exposed to even minute amounts of lead.

I love this idea! What would be the turn-around time? I.e., I sign up, you send me a vial, I send it back, you test it, I get results -- from start to finish, how long do you think it will take?

Also, do you have a potential cost in mind?

Is this one of those incidentaloma things or are a lot of people actually living very toxic lives?

When you did tests on 100 people's houses, were they surprised by the results enough to pay you for more data?

There's enough fear around this kind of thing, but is there actually anything to fear once you look at the lay of the land of people's homes? (Similar to vitamin analogy... very few first worlders have vitamin deficiency, but there's entire vitamin aisles at the store)

I live in a area where Lead based paint is an assumption, and radon is a massive issue. The cost of getting work done is tremendous so I'd rather do it myself.

How can this help me know what work I can DIY and what work is safer to hire out to someone who is an expert. Sure I can pay someone 2x as much to work on my kitchen but what is the relative risk to my health due to lead paint. It'd be nice if I could start a project and have sampling on a daily basis similar to what rad techs or a metric of information on how much lead is in the air as I'm working.

What if it gives positive? Do you help me in finding a solution?

A follow up to this, what stance will you be taking on following up with a positive test? My experience has been, there is a lot of conflicting information out there. Would you suggest removing the problem? Sealing? Ignore the problem? What can be done by the home owner and what can be done by a professional?

This is a great idea. I would definitely try it out.

I'm pretty sure all parents have this concern especially when the doctor asks whether our place have lead and have no idea how to answer them. This is especially the case in the Bay Area where houses are old and is within the time frame of lead paint.

Several concerns here though. How hard is it to test for these things and how much would you charge the customer? Usually lab work are expensive and might not be within the price range.

A friend that went through the R/GA Techstars '15 batch with my startup is solving a related problem of home air quality monitoring.

You may find their approach interesting or if nothing else it's similar validation.

Awair (previously Bitfinder) - https://getawair.com/

I have actually been looking for something like this, but I am more concerned about mould. Would that show up in a test like this? Our washroom has mould growing which we keep fighting back with bleach, but I would love to know what kind it is and if it is dangerous. Could this work for such a use case?

The tests that I did find were bloody expensive (300$+) and had to be done one per room. Too much for us.

FWIW, borax will likely help you combat mold regrowth more effectively than bleach. Another trick here is to constantly use borax on laundry like towels which tend to carry mold from being hung up wet. Finally, add a strong borax solution to a carpet cleaner/washer and do all the carpets in your house. This has REALLY helped me deal with mold in our house. Since starting this regime, old coffee grounds in the compost bin that used to grow mold in a day or so no longer grow mold, even after a week (this was a test, not a typical situation for my house).

For buildings that are younger, say sixty years old or less, I'm way more concerned with water quality and air quality coming in from outside that is guaranteed to have pollutants.

When I lived in SF in an 1930s building I ordered a lead testing kit for the water and thankfully found none.

>haven’t been able to validate that our home is safe to live in.

Why should anyone believe that you'll just figure all this out later after you're given money? You haven't even been motivated enough to solve this problem manually for yourself yet.

this isn't a software hack that I can prototype in a weekend, validating that this idea is feasible and has a market would take resources

I think it's a great idea. Not just for homes but other sites as well.

It would be valuable to establish a track record for a home that might be sold in the future, or perhaps during the sales process a home could be sampled by a certified home inspector.

My guess is in general the Real Estate market doesn't want this. What happens if it tests positive for something? Do you start tearing down all the walls until you find the issue? Suddenly the house is unsellable and a huge money pit for the seller or new buyer.

I would use a service to test food, supplements and prescription drugs (especially generics). I'd be interested in quantity of active ingredients, as well as any contaminants.

The technical and product side sound like a good idea, in general.

How will you acquire customers for this, in a marketing sense?

What will you do differently than existing test labs that accept samples from the public?

How would the dust testing results help in the formulation of an action plan?

One way would be to refer the customer to a specialist for removal of whatever agent is found.

> fill a vile

Did you mean: fill a vial?

https://www.google.com/search?q=define+vial

Wow, pretty negative to downvote for what is a genuine, helpfully meant, correction to a likely misspelling - that obscures the OP's meaning. And yes, I've seen the HN guidelines. Just because someone wrote them doesn't make them right.

Don't complain about downvotes after only 15 minutes. Your comment is fine and readable to me now, after 30.

Wasn't complaining, as in, asking for or expecting a change of behavior. Was just stating my opinion (as some are by their downvotes, BTW).

We fixed the typo above.

Please don't go on about getting downvoted in HN comments—and especially not in Apply HN threads, where you're basically scribbling on someone's application.

> We fixed the typo above.

After I pointed it out, right?

Which means you agreed with my observation on the spelling.

I don't expect or want thanks, but negativity ...

The spelling correction was fine, if minor; all this other stuff is badly off topic.

Almost looks like Theranos is branching out (pivot?:-).

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