Lyft’s Logan Green on Building Uber’s ‘Happier’ U.S. Rival | Hacker News Reader

Lyft’s Logan Green on Building Uber’s ‘Happier’ U.S. Rival

wsj.com

69 pointslxm63 comments

I have found exactly that: Lyft drivers are happier.

I had an Uber driver coerce me into rating him a few weeks ago, while I was in his car. He had a BS reason for wanting the rating now, it was just a ploy to get 5 stars. He was also insanely talkative. Uber might be a little more professional, but one is also playing the odds.

Right now, I check Lyft first, and take that if available. Unless I'm in a downtown area, then I will check an actual taxi app ( flywheel or yotaxi in SF ). If the lyft cars are sparse, I take uber. Just so I can keep mixing it up and trying different services.

( Flywheel has a terrible new design where they ask you for a "guarenteed tip" before the car is called. I tried to bail out of that - I don't like tipping in general, and I really don't like tipping before I can judge the service ), and I was charged $6 for cancelling. Whoa. No wonder people don't like Taxis.

I find that most drivers (that I've had) in SF drive for both Lyft and Uber so it feels wrong to say Lyft drivers are "happier", but I'm just a single data point.

That's conventional wisdom but I don't think really accurate. While drivers may be set up for both, they typically favor one.

Since Lyft actually 'supports' the ability for riders to tip their driver, I would suspect the same person is always happier when their fair is using Lyft's app.

I absolutely hate tips in Lyft. I wish the service just cost 15% more. The Uber experience is just slicker. Hit a button, get in, get out, and the only impediment is rating. Tips, you have to guess amount ($1? 15%? 20%?) and it's always an extra step. I'd be 100% Lyft if they killed tips or let you opt out of tips/opt into recommended tips.

Or if they were very optional. But they feel obligatory. I wouldn't mind the ability to pay extra.

Ding ding ding! Free money usually makes people happier than no free money. I exclusively use Lyft, and talk to my drivers all the time. They also say Lyft riders are better than Uber riders. Not sure if free money plays into that, but I guess so.

I have the same experience in Seattle

You should definitely report that driver. While most of the experiences I've had a really good; there are some bad actors in the system and reporting them helps identify who they are.

Yeah, nothing stops you from making a follow-up comment after the ride, which they will care about.

Why flywheel or yotaxi? Is it because they can ride on the Market st?

Forewarning: I don't have WSJ, so I can only really comment on the title and get a little context from the comments.

I've only used Lyft and Uber in NYC, but I use both frequently (or have; I was "scammed" by a Lyft driver and had a kafkaesque experience with Lyft's management trying to resolve the situation, since which I haven't used their services).

I almost always engage my drivers and try to get to know them. Frankly, I haven't noticed any difference whatsoever in their "friendliness". Topics range anyway to US politics, their home countries' politics, to their job, to their family, to whatever else. Almost all drivers will engage me (assuming their English is good). The only difference in engagement I've noticed is from Taxi drivers, who, of course, expect tips, and thus, I don't think there's much merit to the preconception that "they're nicer to me because they want my money!". Most people enjoy talking to others; when they're stuck in a car with someone for a half hour, they just might want to chat about life. I think it's that simple.

I've asked nearly every driver, with either Lyft or Uber, how they feel about either company, and they rarely have any complaints (and no, I don't think they suspect I'm auditing them or anything along those lines). At least in NYC, bear in mind that the vast majority of these guys are in some combination of: 1. Working for both Lyft and Uber (whenever they feel like it) 2. Driving as a part time gig 3. Coming from a Taxi gig, and thus, the grass is much greener regardless of whether either Lyft or Uber empirically "treats them better"

Just as well, I really can't imagine that customer treatment varies wildly between Lyft and Uber. All of these guys have horror stories about customers, just as us, as passengers, have horror stories about drivers.

So, I think, despite not reading the article, Lyft, via Logan, is likely just spewing marketing nonsense, and a lot of commenters leaning towards a particular company might want to rethink the bases for their conceptions.

"no, I don't think they suspect I'm auditing them or anything along those lines"

How can you be sure of this? When you're dependent on an organization for your paycheck, it's best not to say bad things about that organization, whether you actively suspect someone of being an auditor or not.

The same as I would when conversing with anyone else; it's generally obvious when someone you're talking to is putting on their political filter, no? I don't come out and ask things like "has either Uber or Lyft screwed you over?" (or any other inquiry of that nature), but plenty of peripherals come up in conversation.

Granted, neither company is a paradise for a would-be driver. I'm sure they all have their complaints. It's essentially a customer-service position, and their have been plenty of threads on here discussing the downsides of either company.

Regardless, again, many of them are content with their job, and the lifestyle it incurs. Most drivers I've spoken to are animated when talking about setting their own hours, "being their own boss", and many even are animated in discussing company politics or current events regarding them. Don't take my word for it, though, actually talk and get to know your drivers; an abstracted analysis or a news article isn't the best way to get an impression of the situation.

I'm with you here - maybe OP's demeanor indicates they ARE inspecting them - just about every driver I ask in NY has some complaint. At least with uber, I know my profile has some certain designation (been using them since earliest days), and have had uber drivers ask me to pass on messages to "Mr. Travis" - so to me, that's weird that I'd regularly hear drivers complain and you don't

FYI: You can copy/paste the title into Google to get past the paywall. There's a also a bookmark script someone on HN made to do this automatically on-click but I don't use it personally.

The Google trick doesn't work for me anykore

incognito and white list wsj on adblock

FYI: there's a "web" link at the top of every HN story that lets you do this without copy and paste or bookmark shenanigans.

It's different in New York and San Francisco. Here it is much less common to drive for both. Lyft drivers and passengers tend to be younger, and are more likely to be talkative.

In New York I really couldn't tell any difference.

I don't think SF or NYC are good proxies for other locales but it's quite different here in SF where both drivers and riders tend to favor 1 service. And Lyft appears to be competitive.

I've taken both Lyft and Uber 100's of times over the last few years (mostly in San Francisco but in other cities too). Both are great services that are light years better than taxis.

I like that Lyft gives the option to tip. When drivers go above and beyond what is required or are especially friendly, then it's nice to have the ability to tip.

But what are the social norms around Lyft tipping?

Whenever I ride with Lyft, I feel obligated to tip since I assume that drivers keep a lower cut of the ride revenue.

Is this actually the case?

Nope, the opposite. Lyft's basic take rate is lower. And active Lyft drivers can have their fees cut in half or even eliminated.

Tipping on Lyft is not awkward. Defaults to 0.00, tip if you want. Driver doesn't find out immediately.

Lyft gives drivers a larger portion of the ride's cost (80% instead of 70% IIRC). I never feel obligated to tip, but tip if the service was great.

I'll tip when driver went up and beyond what I was expecting (helping me load and unload furniture, stopping at a point not on the lyft line route, etc).

You can just give uber drivers a cash tip if you feel so inclined.

For some uber riders it's standard operating procedure. Especially if you are with overly drunk people or asking something special (more people in one car than is reasonable, ferrying a dog etc)

It's a bit awkward - plus I'm worried about getting where I'm going; Once there, often I have way more time (in line @ airport or waiting for table, or just trying to compose myself before stepping into customer's office) to spend a few seconds to evaluate rating and tip. Just ... better.

I tried both recently and noticed that some drivers also use both. Depending on time of day, demands, other factor they will alternate between being Lyft drivers and Uber drivers.

Also noticed Lyft-only drivers are friendlier or just more content. Is it because they encourage tipping? Some claimed because company treated them better (those who started working for Uber). One driver switched recounted he picked up some scary drunk and disrespectful passengers when working for Uber and he found little recourse by talking to company. So that was the moment he jumped ship.

The no tipping thing is one of the best things about Uber. I wish we could get rid of tipping everywhere.

Why? Tipping in the US is particularly bad because the culture is enshrined by the IRS which creates a category of labor which devolves into an exploitative system. It's also usually a one way street which creates a system of entitlement in the customer class.

But for Lyft: 1) because tips are in-app, they are tracked and the driver escapes the category (I had to explain this to service employees who were passengers insisting to tip in cash... I usually tip service industry in cash).

2) the entitlement factor is not there because the passenger driver churn is high and it's hard for drivers to remember who tips. Moreover quality ratings are a two way street because since drivers rate passengers, you're incentivise not to be a total entitled dick.

I agree with the op - to me one of the benefits of Uber is being able to get out of the car, and just being done - no worrying about paying, or tipping, or anything. Just charge me a price, and don't make me think about it.

When I have to tip, I have to figure out what is customary - did I tip too much? Too little?

> to me one of the benefits of Uber is being able to get out of the car, and just being done

You can still do that with Lyft. Tipping doesn't involve pulling out a wallet and you can do it in your phone as you rate the driver. I found it nice at least. And only tipped for good service.

One driver didn't get a tip, because they seemed distracted and drove around the same block 4 times saying they were confused about the address -- it seemed like a scam at that point. Eventually I told him to stop and just let me get out.

Are you okay with the cost of the ride going up to remove the need for tipping? Or are you only okay with not tipping if the ride cost is artificially low?

I'm okay with the cost going up.

Some people, myself included, just don't like the inherent pressure around tipping. For services where I almost certainly won't see the person ever again in my life, I just want it to be very transactional where I know what I'm paying up front, and there isn't some implied obligation to leave extra.

Even at restaurants, I dislike the pressure. Perhaps I'm overly sensitive to it, but it just seems like a very unnecessary stressor.

I was absolutely relieved in the UK when I learned that you don't tip at pubs.

I'm also not convinced that riders would not be dinged due to not giving tips. That's the kind of information that seems incredibly valuable for drivers to share, and thus use to discriminate with.

Tipping via apps has gotten really obnoxious because some companies use it in a very pushy manner. For instance, I had an issue with a restaurant called Buffalo here in Mountain View that makes you order your food at the counter, and then swings the screen around for you to leave a tip upon ordering. Tips should be for excellent service rendered, and they are asking for it before I even get my food. In this case I left zero tip there and just left some cash on the table after.

I know I sound like a stingy bastard, but for many people, tipping is just a source of needless anxiety (albeit minor anxiety) that should really be done away with.

I hate tipping culture because as a minority, my actions are likely to feed common cognitive biases about group behavior. Uber is less stressful for me because I can pay the agreed upon price and we'll both be happy. I hope reputation systems end tipping everywhere. They allow people to choose to pay for better service ahead of time.

I don't know, I kind of like the tipping aspect. I've lived in US too long perhaps.

It is part of the app checkout, so don't have to pull out your wallet or do anything like. Still just jump out and say 'thank you'.

On average, Lyft Drivers and passengers seem to be more talkative, more interactive and more fun to ride with. Typically I select Lyft over uber, except when...

I don't feel like talking to anyone.

I get the impression that other people do the same. Basically I pick Lyft when I want to be social and Uber when I don't.

Having both choices makes my life better, and probably better for drivers as well.

For Lyft I believe they recommend sitting up front if you want to talk, and in back if you don't.

In SF, I'd say my experience with Lyft has been more varied while Uber has been more consistent.

With Lyft, the driver completely flubbed up the meetup point at SFO despite me getting text instructions from Lyft and me articulating exactly where I was in the terminal. Meanwhile, the Uber experience was seamless.

And in the 'burbs, I've requested a Lyft only to be left stranded with no options or a driver who signals they are going to pick me up only to pass me and basically leave me waiting for another 10 minutes with no response. Also, I've been in experiences in SF where the Lyft driver almost got into accidents because they weren't paying attention.

In comparison, my Uber experience in various cities have largely been the same. Not that personal but no problems.

I don't know about Uber but Lyft has been running ads on the radio promising a $500 signing bonus for drivers and noting that they allow tipping.

Aren't passengers rated? Assuming consistent bad behavior they should be able to avoid these customers.

What exactly did they want Uber to do?

There were a bunch of things, one thing that stuck in my mind, they were concerned with lack of internal customer support for the drivers and a lack attention.

I find most Uber drivers to be very friendly, but if you venture into the driver forums that are out there it's really a different story. So many drivers that seem to absolutely hate everything about Uber, the passengers in particular, but continue to drive. It's weird.

It's almost as if their livelihood depends on it...

I exclusively ride Uber because there's no tipping. More honest pricing is great.

There is really no expectation of tips on Lyft. When I was a driver, only about 20% of my rides tipped (and I was a 4.9-4.95 driver, though it could be a race/gender thing) and it's frankly nearly impossible to track who tipped you or didn't.

Yeah. While I like what Uber is doing about tipping, even with Lyft, the system is a lot better because I don't have to decide the tip while also trying to get out and be on my way, or with someone staring at me.

I'm just lazy and don't feel like signing up for yet another service. I hate entering all those stupid details for the millionth time.

I would love for "happy" to win in this market and would settle for it staying in the game.

I care about safe, convenient, and efficient/economical in personal transportation. All other things being equal, sure I'd like for "happy" to be part of it, but not at the expense of the first 3 measures.

A rudimentary search or two would seem to indicate that driver happiness and driver safety are connected. I don't know how to effectively measure it, but it would seem to me that at least some consideration should be paid to driver happiness as a safety factor.

Implying that Lyft doesn't accomplish those?

Not at all. Just implying that "driver happiness" itself is below the fold for me.

I think it's important to recognize that driver happiness is a major component in ensuring the 3 things you do care about in the long term.

Question remains - if this is winner takes all market. If it is - only one company will survive. As a consumer most important thing for me is to get cab as quickly and cheaply as possible maintaining the basic standards of cleanliness, and politeness from service providers. If quality of service is more or less the same - then I'd argue that the platform generating more demand and supply in the market will prevail and take on outsize market share (80%+). if this is true - then only one will prevail.

It seems pretty clear that it's not a winner-take-all market. There's, what, 3+ competitors out now that are competing on price and service, and furthermore the drivers can switch between them more easily than any other prior form of employment. This means that they're facing strict price competition for both drivers and riders. The infrastructure required is all relatively basic software, so costs are relatively low. As you said, all the customer cares about is "as quickly and cheaply as possible" - all you need is new competitor that drops the cut for riders and drivers (+ advertising) and people will switch. This is exactly Fasten's strategy.

Without fundamental change to the landscape everyone's just going get their margins eaten in this environment. Uber knows this, so they're trying to own self-driving vehicle technology to give them an edge over their competitors. Then they're in competition with the other self-driving technology providers who might partner with Lyft etc., so that doesn't even put them fully in the clear even if they can pull it off.

Self-driving technology and how it plays out determines if these companies actually reach the high valuations, IMO.

I don't see why people think this will be a winner-take-all market. The marginal cost for Uber or Lyft is nearly zero, so competition should drive the cost to zero. Lyft and Uber are both past the network-effect barriers to entry, so there's no way for one to boot out the other without slashing rates to try to drive the other out of business. Neither appears to be trying to do so yet.

More fundamentally, there's nothing stopping drivers from driving both Lyft and Uber, so there's no reason one should go out of business just because the other is more successful.

I have my doubts that this is inherently a winner take all market, but it maybe because of funding. It appears that the investment community believes it is a winner take all market and on that basis it will be a winner take all.

I had an Uber/Lyft combo driver rant about how the Uber CEO was planning on replacing them all and advocating for self-driving cars, so there's that:

http://spectrum.ieee.org/cars-that-think/transportation/self...

I've only taken Uber (Lyft is not available in the city where I go to university), but I find most of my Uber drivers as extremely friendly. I've had some very interesting conversations with Uber drivers during my rides, and they nearly always seem happy to talk.

I wonder if Uber drivers in cities without Lyft are happier because Uber is the only option.

They're also smaller towns, so the driver demographic is different and probably skewed towards happy relative to the driver demographic in big cities.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com