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Comment by MagnumOpus | Hacker News Reader

> OTOH the Model S is the most well manufactured anything I've ever sat in

That is one anecdotal. A much more interesting one is that Tesla is so bad at QC that even the most die-hard Tesla fans are now building checklists to do the quality control that the factory skimped on [1].

It is also rather silly to compare Tesla interior/exterior design or reliability with the big three - it is well known that they are good at neither. Pick a Lexus or a Honda/Acura or an Audi or a Mercedes and see what you get for your money there...

[1] https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/model-x-delivery-che...

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"It is also rather silly to compare Tesla interior/exterior design or reliability with the big three - it is well known that they are good at neither. Pick a Lexus or a Honda/Acura or an Audi or a Mercedes and see what you get for your money there..."

I'll save you some time ...

The interior of the lowest end BMW/Merc/Audi cars (3series/C-Class/A4) are so much nicer than the interior of a model S so as to be stupefying.

> The interior of the lowest end BMW/Merc/Audi cars (3series/C-Class/A4) are so much nicer than the interior of a model S so as to be stupefying.

You can choose a drive train that has been more-or-less unchanged for many decades, with all the money spent on the interior, or you can choose a revolutionary drive train, with a basic interior.

It's simply your choice.

The Tesla apologist rhetoric is getting a little hard to follow. Which is it? Are Teslas the best-manufactured anything? Or are they lacking because they're so revolutionary?

Tesla doesn't have apologists, it has enthusiasts. Apologist would imply there is something that needs defending.

http://cleantechnica.com/2015/02/18/many-awards-tesla-won-in...

FACT: The long-term road test from Edmunds required four drivetrains in two years.

http://www.edmunds.com/tesla/model-s/2013/long-term-road-tes...

This article alone turns most Tesla enthusiasts into apologists immediately. Its a revolutionary drive train, no one has done this before, that's why its having issues. Or we can expect Tesla to fix the issues, or whatever.

Sure, but it doesn't change the fact that Tesla is performing awfully in practical long-term tests. IE: apologists, as opposed to enthusiasts.

You got your fact wrong. The drive unit was only replaced twice. Second time was pre-emptive and just due to the way it sounded.

What other long-term tests are you referring to?

edit: Apologies, I read the Edmunds blog wrong. You were right, they're on their 4th drive unit.

http://www.edmunds.com/tesla/model-s/2013/long-term-road-tes...

> If you're keeping score, our Model S is now on its third drive unit: the one that came with the car, the one that was replaced in November, and this latest one. And that wasn't the only thing that was replaced on this service visit.

This is when Edmunds replaced the drive unit twice. Look at the date, Feb 2014.

Later, in July 2014: http://www.edmunds.com/tesla/model-s/2013/long-term-road-tes...

Yet another drive unit replacement. Their Tesla S went through four drive trains (the first one came with the car, and then three replacements) in two years.

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Consumer Reports also had an issue with their long-term test.

http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/car-technology/news/a27...

Consumer Reports is a survey methodology, as opposed to a single data-point like Edmunds. But the fact that reliability concerns are hitting the major, reputable, reviewers is worrisome to me.

This isn't JUST an Edmunds issue. Everyone is reporting reliability concerns. In part, its somewhat okay because Tesla the company stands behind their warranty and fixed the problems without issue. So as a consumer, you get excellent service.

On the other hand, dying in the middle of a highway and being forced to call a tow-truck is not an experience that should be common on a high-end luxury vehicle. The question is if Tesla has solved these issues in time for the Model 3 / mass market.

> On the other hand, dying in the middle of a highway and being forced to call a tow-truck is not an experience that should be common on a high-end luxury vehicle.

I see you've never owned a German luxury vehicle.

Ouch. I feel the burn.

Good one. +1.

You make it sound like the Edmonds people were like "holy shit, we're freaked out by a sound, replace the drive unit." But what actually happened is they heard a sound, took it to an authorized maintainer, and the maintainer was like, "Oh, you need a new drive unit."

What does it have to do to count as not preemptive? Burst into flames at 70mph?

Name another car, with known problems, where 97% of the owners would buy another? The market is speaking; it doesn't matter what the rhetoric is.

I feel like you are implying that "unchanged for many decades" is a downside. When you are talking about a drive train, it's a positive. They know what works, how to build it, and everyone knows how to fix it. Now if you want to talk about environmental impact, then yes I agree there is much to be said for Tesla.

Not wanting to put words into GP's mouth but I think the implication was that a bigger slice of the R&D budget goes on the interior of these cars because the drivetrain is a solved problem.

That seems really dubious. The entire price of an S80 is less than half a base Model S and aside from a dated computer has a far nicer interior in every way.

Of course I'm biased. Owned six Volvos. Always thought you couldn't buy a better interior. Simple tactile controls. Best seats in the business. And I loved the waterfall console in the three that had it.

I think I'm over cars for the most part, but if anything could tempt me it'd be the new S90. Makes a Model S interior look like cheap junk at half the price.

I don't know much about the subject, I admit.

If in the past years manufacturers had to cheat on emissions in order to present improvements to performance numbers, then there doesn't seem to be much innovation or the tech has stagnated.

On the other hand, there seems to be lots of room for improvement/innovation on the electric side.

> If in the past years manufacturers had to cheat on emissions in order to present improvements to performance numbers

The cheating is rather insignificant when compared to the actual decline in emissions over couple past decades.

Internal combustion engines have become more efficient all the time; there is a lot that has been developed there over the years.

Many of those things, such as the material technology, probably benefit also electric vehicles. Tesla as we know it wouldn't be possible without the pile of innovations done with combustion engine cars.

> Now if you want to talk about environmental impact, then yes I agree there is much to be said for Tesla.

Can you share more evidence to justify that claim? Not that I have any reason specifically to doubt it, but this seems like it warrants a lifetime analysis of the expected manufacturing and repair costs of Teslas.

I don't think that there's any evidence to support your equality.

> You can choose a drive train that has been more-or-less unchanged for many decades

You can, for some models, but often not any more. Modern drivetrains include dual-clutch transmissions, which have only appeared in the last 10 years (despite actually being invented before WWII).

>with all the money spent on the interior,

Not really. A lot has been spent on combustion engine efficiency, for instance. I drive a twelve-year-old Renault Megane, not a wasteful car at all at its time, but new ones consume at least 30 % less gasoline.

You seem to be unaware of exactly how much weird stuff is in the advanced car brands (think Mercedes and Volvo). An alumni of my university line made a program for Mercedes that would compensate for side winds (such as when you meet a truck or drive over a bridge) so that the driver wouldn't notice. That's pure and delicious overengineering.

I echo that.

When it comes to the car hardware (besides the battery-thing) the Model S is a rather meager bang-for-buck deal.

I hope for Tesla that they can iterate on that hardware aspect as well as they do on the software part. The quality and looks as well as the manufacturing process are still the bread and butter of old giants.

What I'd like: Put a tesla engine in a car with quality interior (european/asian brands) and quality exterior (european brands/mazda), maybe their software too least for its "evergreen" update scheme - but keep the touchpad away from me unless it dims out in the dark and offers me haptic response.

The touchpad dims in the dark, and the haptic controls are on the steering wheel.

I thought it was clean and minimal but well done. Conversely my buddy's Mercedes is gaudy.

For me it's not so much about the design (that's obviously a matter of taste and preference), but materials and fit+finish.

the design is ok (except the awful console in the model 3) but the materials and polish are terrible. tesla's feel like riding in a child's toy

I find Lexus is a reasonable middle between Tesla's "less is more" interior strategy and Mercedes' "button or knob for every function". I've flown planes with simpler controls than Mercedes sedans' panel.

Is this the spot in the conversation where I daydream out loud about the people responsible for the diesel scandal at VW/Audi being sacked and replaced with people interested in electric drive trains?

While I can't say I've sat within a Tesla, I do know they began by making sports cars not luxury cars.

Personally, I've always felt sports car companies---Porsche, Ferrari, and Mazda for a low-end comparison---all have interiors that feel far less luxurious than any luxury car available for 1/3rd the price, and many family cars of 1/2 the price.

Porsche didn't have cup holders until their 2001 editions, and as an unfortunate owner of one, I can attest those are the flimsiest cupholders ever to grace the face of the earth, and the entire interior is filled with so much fiddly plastic that's just waiting to break and often does. Any Mercedes, even one from 10 years previous, would have a nicer interior.

Did that prevent me from buying another Porsche? Well, no it didn't. I like the way the cars drive, and eschew luxury features if their weight is going to do anything to the handling or performance of the car.

Excellent point: Tesla is still making sports cars -- sports sedans and sports SUVs. Anyone who's complaining about the interior without being interested in the performance isn't really in the target market.

You probably don't like how Model S handles (it's pretty heavy), but maybe you'll like the eventual 2-seater built on the Model 3 platform.

I had a model S on order but canceled due to this single issue. This will not be as much an issue for the model 3 because due to price the expectations are (or should be) much lower. For 105k for an S I'd kind of like to compare it to an S-class or 7 series or A8. They all crush the S for the interior.

I have no idea what people are talking about. I have never been impressed in the slightest with the interior of any car except the Tesla. The controls just scream 80s or worse.

> That is one anecdotal. A much more interesting one is that Tesla is so bad at QC that even the most die-hard Tesla fans are now building checklists to do the quality control that the factory skimped on.

Yet a staggering 98% of the Mode S owners said they would buy the car again [1]. Can you name a single product that has that kind of loyalty? I've never driven a tesla, but clearly something very different is happening in the automotive industry other than Fanboism.

1. http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/2012/12/owner-satisfactio...

I don't know shit about cars and have never driven a Tesla. But 98% of people willing to buy it again might very well be fanboism, or wanting to have the coolest car currently, or wanting to have the only[1] fully electric luxury car. I'm not sure why you think it must be a superb quality of manufacturing to some extent.

[1] I don't know if there are others. But I count on others not knowing either.

FWIW: I went through a few cars already: with every one, after 3-4 years, I wanted to have nothing with the brand, because there were always so many things that sucked (in-car UI, service etc.)

I drive Model S. I don’t want to drive anything else ever, because the quality (of driving, of UI, the way service treats you) is superb. I’m damn motivated to earn enough to afford it, or at least Model 3, because my experience is that no other manufacturer gets it or is capable of making a decent driver UI — and yes, that includes Audis or BMWs.

I love my '03 Toyota 4 Runner. Very well made product. You're right other companies make great stuff. Obviously my assessment of how well made the Tesla's are is holistic and subjective.

That checklist is for sig model Xs, the first ones off the production line. Not quite the same as the Model S which Tesla have made over 100,000 of.

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