Unreal Engine 4.11 Released
unrealengine.com
unrealengine.com
I know most people prefer Unreal for ease of use, documentation etc. but I also read often that they like the technology of Cryengine better (real time GI (SVOTI), better performance, better skin and eye shader for example), so I would have thought that the free source code release would stir things up.
Yes, Unreal released the full source code long ago, so they (Crytek) are late to the party, and the marketing of Crytek is... not the best (to put it kindly), but why is it that the Cryengine 5 release was not really discussed on HN?
[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11294763 [1 comment --> I myself]
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11300017 [0 comments]
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11313695 [0 comments]
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11295419 [0 comments]
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11297215 [0 comments]
And not every Unreal post gets to the front page. The exact same link was submitted way earlier and if the dupe check would have worked this wouldn't be on the front page because nobody would have seen it.
4.11 - now
4.10 - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10548139 [75 comments]
4.9 - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10147368 [50 comments]
4.8 - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9694885 [98 comments]
4.7 - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9103050 [88 comments]
??? (when they released UE4 for free) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9132815 [240 comments]
4.0 - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7429774 [163 comments]
But it's probably as you say. Not every interesting post (which also depends on the readers interests, of course) get's to the front page. Coupled with the bigger mindshare of Unreal, and the not so interesting Cryengine releases in the past (especially compared to Unreal) we get more Unreal postings on HN.
I've used Unity, Cryengine and Unreal. Crytek has some great tech but they are very deficient in supporting the community and Epic has invested a huge amount of resources into training, content, tools and even no-strings attached grants for devs working in Unreal. I'm not surprised at all that this has translated to more goodwill for Ue4 on HN than other engines.
Even strictly just on the PC gaming side of things, Unreal's adoption rate among game devs is miles and miles ahead of CryEngine. Is it really that hard to imagine why the community cares more about Unreal Engine than CryEngine?
This has been true for years, idTech, while being arguably technically more impressive, was being written about far less because while it's ostensibly licensable, nobody actually did it.
Maybe I'm not a typical game developer, as I don't like to do my actual developing on Windows, but in UE4 I've always felt as a well-loved second class citizen.
Maybe the fact that I, a random dev, know Unreal from 100 other sources and sites, but have seldom heard about Cryengine explains that?
Even as someone who is stuck at the "I should really do something with Unreal one of these days" level, there's a ton in this post for me to read and easily grasp about the changes they made. Even smaller features have enough about them I can speculate about the changes that had to be made under the hood to enable them, and what I could do with them if I ever actually followed through on trying Unreal out. The screenshots are particularly nice.
Another great example of this sort of thing is the Dolphin progress reports.
It seems a little silly (it's just extended descriptions and some screenshots), but the effect is real and the effort needed is just often not made because those closest to a project either don't see the need because they're so close, or are exhausted from pushing a major release of the project so just don't have the time or energy to put into a good post about the release.
So, for example, the Cryengine 5 release post is about a major development and there's plenty to discuss there, but there's not a ton of substance to the post, and it's certainly not very engaging for anyone not in the thick of the industry (and maybe not even for them).
But CryEngine? Nothing. CE5 was released and the only thing that's happened was that a few people found out CE(4) existed.
Desktop Linux is a tiny niche (measured to below 2%), and Linux gaming even smaller part of that.
Heck, even OS X which got around 10% doesn't get much love, gaming wise...
Not for developers. And both Unreal and Unity have Linux editors and support compiling for Linux.
Yes. But while the iOS casual game dev world is in the millions, the Linux game world is still small.
The shading model approximates subsurface scattering
through the sclera, caustics on the iris and specular on
the wet layer. To be used in conjunction with the
provided eye material and eyeball geometry. Together
these additionally model the refraction through the
cornea, darkening of the limbal ring, with controls for
dilating the pupils.
In realtime 3d games. This is pushing up against the limits of what offline renderers could do not so very long ago.This can definitely be seen in the usability of the software alone, where Unity suffers some poor interface issues alongside poor performance problems.
Availability of source is another big advantage over Unity I believe. When you run into a problem in Unity you're pretty screwed. At least with Unreal you have the option of diving into the source and figuring out what's going on so you can either fix it or find a workaround.
This is my machine:
iMac (Retina 5K, 27-inch, Late 2015)
3.2 GHz Intel Core i5
32 GB 1867 MHz DDR3
AMD Radeon R9 M380 2048 MB
All I can say is the engine runs like rubbish on it, so I'm flat out astonished to hear it runs 'very well' on your 2012 macbook.This is the compile time for running a 'hello world' project with a few tests:
[2016.03.20-09.44.43:606][ 0]Log file open, 03/20/16 17:44:43
[2016.03.20-09.44.53:841][261]Display: Running Automation: 'NppTests' (Class Name: 'FNppTests')
[2016.03.20-09.44.53:875][263]...Automation Test Succeeded (NppTests)
[2016.03.20-09.44.55:055][264]Log file closed, 03/20/16 17:44:55
real 6m47.566s
user 3m58.869s
sys 0m41.303s
That's not a full rebuild, just running: ./Engine/Build/BatchFiles/Mac/Build.sh TestProjectEditor Mac Development TestProject.uproject
UnrealEngine/Engine/Binaries/Mac/UE4Editor.app/Contents/MacOS/UE4Editor TestProject.uproject -Game -ExecCmds="Automation RunTests TestProject" -unattended -nopause -testexit="Automation Test Queue Empty" -log="TestResults.txt"
ie. It's only compiling the local project files and relinking the engine files. That takes 7 minutes.With the quality settings dialed back completely, games are... kind of playable.
This doesn't match your experience?
I'm deeply deeply interested to know what you're doing, because it doesn't run like you describe on any apple device I've ever used.
What engine version?
Did you build it yourself? Which branch are you running? Did you change any of the build settings?
What quality settings are you using?
Seriously, I'm not trolling. If there's a magic 'make this actually work' setting some where I'm missing, I want to know about it, because the engine is monstrously slow in my experience, unless you're running it on a windows machine.
My recommendation for people using UE is 'dont use a mac'; I've never once varied from that position in the last year, I'm really interested if you have a different experience.
[1] - http://www.amazon.com/3Dconnexion-3DX-700028-SpaceNavigator-...
[2] - https://answers.unrealengine.com/questions/14140/why-isnt-3d...
Building the game itself: Total build time: 20.36 seconds
Not quite a exact same test as yours but I've honestly never used the engine in the way you are compiling it there. I understand it's a basic compile and execute tests but I usually run my tests via xcode and build/launch the game from either xcode or the unreal editor both are very fast.
(tests obviously are not supported for hot reload)
I'm always honestly a little surprised but that Java webapps we have at my day job take a lot longer to compile and launch than Unreal does in my experience.
I will say to be fair in Windows 10 on the same hardware (bootcamp dual boot) Unreal is at least twice as fast. It's kinda crazy and bums me out a bit.
Out of curiosity, what proportion of your game code is blueprint vs. C++?
Mine would be probably 80/20 in favour of C++; I wonder if using C++ heavily has a disproportional effect on the editor speed somehow.
Certainly sounds like you're having a much better time of it than I am...
Did they fix this for OSX ?
No.Imagine if Mozilla was supported like this instead of being paid for customer data. It would be a game changer.
The principle of the model is make em pay once they can afford it. So having X employees would usually mean the company can afford to pay say $10 per employee per year to use it.
Under this scalable model it will be users.
Writing your own graphics engine now seems to be more in line if you really enjoy writing your engine more than the game itself - or if you really want to do something you can't do easily with engines available.
All these engines make some efficiency sacrifices for generality and feature set. You can get better performance if you have a specific problem to solve and you design your rendering around it. For many games that's not going to make sense but for certain VR applications it still might.
For my VR projects I've gone down both paths and there are pros and cons to each. For many projects though the biggest advantage of these engines are the editors - writing your own rendering engine for a specific use case is a lot less work than building an editor that can compare to these tools.
The biggest problem with this pre-packaged software is when something ultimately goes wrong, which it always does. Then you find yourself digging round in internals (assuming you have access, looking at you Unity) to find out what when wrong and why banding is appearing only when you use stencil shadows and apply SSAO factor X.. basically, it's still complicated, and you still have to know your stuff.
Another problem with these engines is they force you into a particular way of working. Unreal blueprints for example are a nightmare once you add a decent amount of functionality as per the law that visual programming does not scale.
Finally you underestimate how much code is the actual game logic, which is also the hardest part to write. In this case the engines don't help at all, Unity even just throws you into Visual Studio and lets that deal with you. Additionally I've yet to see a good solution for figuring out why my AI are running through walls on their way to a target, without writing a ton of custom visualization stuff myself. Many algorithms take place over time (units moving, animating, etc), so you can't just step though code in a debugger as that's like looking at a landscape through a keyhole.
That's like saying "car's aren't too hard to build once you understand the four stroke cycle". Did you read the changelog? The manpower involved is immense.
(Of course you can write a much much simpler engine yourself, but we aren't talking about those.)
Note I'm only talking about the graphics aka shader side here, not the whole engine.
Of course it gets "easier" once you've done it a couple of time and understand the basics, but really doing it for the first time is a hard edge to climb.
Been writing my first 3D C++/OpenGL engine for the last 2 years, one of the most taunting tasks I've taken in my career. And just to cover a very specific use case of graphics rendering, not to do cover an overly generalized case like Unreal Engine is doing.
Unreal engine is also over at least 20 years old, so I think you're overly simplifying the task required.
Graphics engine is so much more than just figuring out the graphics pipeline, ultimately it's about flexible data management in a way that lets you achieve what you want, with performance.
These days C# + Monogame solves all my Language, API and Platform distribution problems and allows for fast iteration during development.
Implementing a cross platform modern game engine is perhaps a single step below writing an operating system from scratch.
Source- I've written 3 feature rich, but not feature complete, game engines over the last 25 years.
When new engine features come out, FXAA for example, it's mainly just a case of finding it online [1] and implementing it as needed. I've done this with many parts of my engine (model loading [2], animation [3] and physics [4] come to mind) where I don't need to re-invent the wheel, but I have full source for when I need to modify it (always the case), and it comes unrestricted by licences which is another plus.
Cross platform? Mono runtime + Monogame already has me covered, and I can use a modern language to write my games for faster iterative development.
[1] https://github.com/SeriousMaxx/FXAAMonoGame
[2] https://github.com/assimp/assimp
[3] https://xnanimation.codeplex.com
[4] http://community.monogame.net/t/which-physics-engine-is-work...
One other benefit, apart from outsourcing, is that there's now a large pool of people using the same system. So, you're not working in isolation anymore and you can ask for help when you get stuck - and stuck you will get.
Could you please elaborate on this one? Do you have first hand experience?
It's true that there has been more questions then there are answers, but I was wondering what attempts have been taken thus far to solve it.
More specifically, I was curious to hear if OP had any story to share dealing with this kind of problem.
You've probably played a number of games (this is especially true in open-world environments) where direct sunlight looks amazing: Everything casts shadows realistically, giving the scene a very believable sense of illumination and depth. But walk into the shadows, and all that vanishes: Even if the environment has some approximation of global illumination, no shadows are calculated (since there would be far too many secondary light sources versus the single sun).
Screen-space ambient occlusion helps somewhat, but it's a hack that looks good sometimes and weird other times. Capsule shadows, if calculated from the top one or two secondary light sources, can approximate the shadows resulting from that complex network of bouncing light in a much more realistic and believable way.
- Improved GC
- DX 12 support for PC and XBox ONE
- Metal as default render for El Capitan onwards
A bit of perspective:
bullet points in patch notes: 2625
weekdays since last "minor" release: 100
bullets per day: 26
I don't know how big their team is, but there are days when i don't code 26 lines. The prospect of releasing that many bug fixes and large features is simply astounding.Does anybody has more information on this or know where I can read up on it?
I've tried the previous versions and the CPU temperature is rising very quickly.
A 2012 iMac is ancient. Are current systems getting hot as well?
EDIT: I'm asking because the dupe check seems to be broken.
When I submit something that is already there the systems gives an upvote and doesn't register it as a second post.
But not this time.