Comment by n00b101 | Hacker News Reader

Comment by n00b101 | Hacker News Reader

What exactly do they propose is the incentive for founding a startup in Canada instead of just doing it in the US? It can't be Waterloo because those grads don't want to stay here, as things stand (brain drain effect). It can't be the weather, or taxes. It definitely isn't the investors, Canadian investors are notoriously conservative when it comes to new ventures (unless your business is to dig a new hole in the ground and pull out rocks). It isn't the cost of living, the average price of a home in Toronto is $1M. The only support for startups is a decades old tax credit program called SRED which requires you to domicile your company as a Canadian owned private corporation (e.g., no Delaware corporations) and it is notorious for being beuraucratic and it clearly favours larger established companies over true startups. The government has failed miserably at incentivizing startups. This latest pitch seems to be based on nothing more than dusting off the old canard of Canada being more "multi-cultural" than the US, and using Donald Trump to attract startup entrepreneurs? This coming from the institutions that gave us Stephen Harper and Rob Ford? These gimmicks are more of an indication that they're not serious abot incentivizing startups, they are just trying to score political points at home.

My uncle is an engineer in Toronto, and often speaks positively of the startup scene in parts of Canada. I know Waterloo loses quite a few grads to the Bay Area and other major U.S. cities, but haven't some companies actually relocated to be closer to the scene there? I am thinking Pivotal Labs and Google off the top of my head.

I am genuinely curious on your take, since you seem to have direct knowledge. I have seen many people say things in the same vein, but also hear positive things from people in Canada and outsiders as well.

SRED is impossible to get, and has been for several years. We make novel manufacturing plant floor technology that is sold inside and outside of Canada and seen as unique IP. Getting SRED is harder than building the technology, so we just gave up. I would gladly trade places with an American running away from Trump, to escape Liberal^2 here in Ontario. Google "Ontario Sunshine List" if you want to see our California-esque problems with government misinvestment.

SRED is annoying, bureaucratic, slow, comes with painful audits that can delay payments over a year, breaking your company if you're relying on it, requires all your engineers to keep detailed log books, et cetera.

But I've been in a few different startups in Canada, and they've all successfully received very significant SRED payments. Having the government pay a huge chunk of your engineering payroll has been a key part of the success of some of these companies.

I can speak a bit for western canada; Vancouver has seen many of the larger/top companies open offices: Microsoft, Facebook, Amazon, etc. so plenty of jobs to be had there. I live in Calgary and have seen many peers move to Vancouver for better job prospects.

Re: SRED credits - I've been a part of the application process twice. Documentation can be a bit cumbersome, but not much more than 5 minutes summarizing the weeks work in a spreadsheet (for each employee), and tracking their hours spent on related tasks. Add in source control and the numerous artifacts that software devs come up with, means low amount of effort for high payout. And by high payout, I'm talking 1-2 devs salary in a 10 dev shop. We also hired a consulting company that specialized in SRED applications which saved us a ton of overhead. Cost 10-20% of payout, but was worth not having to deal with the application and/or any audits had they occurred.

>I live in Calgary and have seen many peers move to Vancouver for better job prospects.

Where do they live? Even a crack house in Vancouver costs $1M. Vancouver has probably some of the most expensive real estate in the entire world now.

One friend is in a townhouse in North Vancouver. Rented for a while, then bought. Real-estate is stupid silly there. I've also heard talk of people moving to Victoria as an alternative.

Québec actually gives a lot of tax breaks for tech businesses. There's a pretty lively startup scene in Mtl, perhaps for this reason:

http://builtinmtl.com/

> not serious abot

True Canadian confirmed.

And if you do need to leave at some point, good luck because you're going to have a huge cap gains tax bill for your startup equity!

There's an $800,000 lifetime capital gains exemption for 'qualified small business corporations'. To qualify, basically you have to be Canadian-controlled for 2 years.

There are none.

Moving to Canada from the USA lowers your quality of life by 50%.

What are the reasons that lead you to believe that?

I have lived in both the US and Canada, I prefer Canada.

I can imagine reasons a few right away that he would think that:

* housing cost is generally higher in Canada, except maybe if you're comparing to the Bay Area in which case it's a wash

* cars cost a LOT more in Canada (as does everything else)

* tech salaries are a lot lower in Canada

* taxes are generally higher in Canada (plus the huge VAT for sales)

And you save a shitload of money on healthcare and university. Not to mention, money != quality of life.

While I'm not going to argue Canada is the best place ever or that we don't have some issues, the quality of life is still pretty damn good. Certainly not 50% lower than the US or Silicon Valley...

What do you save on healthcare and university?

University is like $3000/year here. I heard it's almost the same in the US if you go to a regular University.

Healthcare is irrelevant is you're insured. And if you want access to care or a specialist in a reasonable delay, you have to got the private route, which means you actually pay twice. Considering that 50% of our taxes go to healthcare, I'm paying almost 25% of my income on healthcare here in Canada.

I'm not sure what a "regular university" is. That might be the cost of a relatively cheap community college - i.e. the lowest-end choice in many areas.

My uneducated guess is it's about 5-10 times that at private U.S colleges.

Comparing the price of private U.S. Colleges to public Canadian Colleges is a mistake.

Healthcare isn't that expensive here. Think of your premium as an extra tax: how does the lower taxes in the US plus the health insurance premium compare to what you'd pay in Canada? Now add in the significantly lower salaries.

Remember, we're comparing lifestyles of tech professionals here, not average people or poor people. For people who can't afford decent health insurance, Canada definitely seems to have a much better system. But a tech professional should not have much trouble paying health insurance premiums.

Please explain yourself. If you are conflating QoL with salary then sure but I've heard stories of Canadians moving from Ontario to the Bay Area and their opinions on the move are mixed.

I don't know if I'd say the quality of life is 50% lower, but some of the reasons I prefer the US: (1) higher salary, (2) lower taxes [though this depends where in the US you move to], (3) you tend to work at HQ [better projects] rather than some satellite office, (4) more access to the latest tech [Amazon/Netflix is pretty bad in Canada], (5) more entrepreneurial/driven people [again depends where you move], (6) generally lower COL.

I know people will bring up healthcare, but I would argue if you have a high-paying job in the US, you never really worry about going bankrupt due to healthcare and you get access to some of the top physicians/hospitals.

Now don't get me wrong, Canada has a lot going for it. I think Canadian cities tend to be run better and this shows up as being safer and cleaner. Canadians also tend to be nicer and because they are 100% committed to the rat race, they tend to be less high strung and competitive.

Overall, I had to move from Canada since there weren't any jobs in my home town. I could have move to Toronto (3 hr flight) or I could have moved to the Bay area (3 hr flight). I'm the same distance from family, so why not go for the bigger opportunity?

Final disclaimer: this is my own opinion. Obviously some people will look at the US and go "yuck". Live where you want to live. It's all good.

(7) Cost of living [everything is much cheaper in the US]

I agree to every single of your points.

Thank you for adding your perspective. What's bothered the Canadians I have talked to who have made the move is not so much stuff like money, taxes etc. It is more general culture shock e.g. witnessing the amount of income inequality present in American cities / overt racial barriers ... etc.

Canada is a lot more egalitarian.

But from what you've said it seems like making the move to US is a good idea if you want more money and more opportunities. Hopefully I will be able to make the move soon. I am pretty ignorant of how the visa stuff works though and assuming I don't make it to the big tech companies I don't know how I'd be able to walk a middling startup through it. It seems like it would generally be easier for these startups to hire Americans.

If you have a blog where you've shared your experiences on the move I'd be very interested in reading it because this is a subject that's been in my head for a while.

Canada is a lot more egalitarian.

I think a lot of that depends on your personal experiences. There aren't really "ghettos" in Canada like the US, but there are very poor areas, just like US cities. They just tend to look a little less rundown since I think city gov'ts in Canada tend to work better.

Like I said in my original post, it all depends on what's important to you and that can change over time. If you've decided the rat race isn't for you, then Canada is a great place to live. Stability, good social services, etc are in abundance in Canada. To each his own.

As for my immigration story, I never really put it down in writing. Even though you're Canadian, it can be a real slog. You have to stand in line just like every other immigrant, although you do get some benefits (like TN visa) that other countries don't. But when it comes to a green card and citizenship, it really isn't any different that other countries.

If you want to read up on it, just google, there is a ton of information out there. If I were you, I'd give it a go using a TN visa. As long as you have a degree in certain fields, all you need is an offer letter from the company. You can get the visa at the border.

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