X.org lost $5000 from their Paypal account | Hacker News Reader

X.org lost $5000 from their Paypal account

thread.gmane.org

68 pointsplaes33 comments

Forget PayPal, what about the 5 grand that "vanished into the Brazilian banking system"? That seems like the kind of line-item that merits explanation.

And the 5K paypal took doesn't matter? Title should be something like 10K lost by X.org in one conference. (Unless the 5K to the banking system is something like horrible fees or something).

Messages later in the thread say that it was money wired to two Brazilians that they were sponsoring to fly to the conference with the travel scholarships, that never got to the intended recipients. Unfortunately, money wires frequently have problems like that. The security is basically entirely at the receiving point, which is supposed to not hand over the wired cash to anyone except the person it was wired to, and is supposed to properly check IDs and such. But if someone else gets it, either because of lax checking, fake documentation, or unscrupulous employees at the bank, it's basically gone; unlike with credit cards and such, you can't chargeback a wire transfer (which is why 419 and Craigslist scammers ask for money to be sent that way).

After trying to pay a contractor via wire once and losing hundreds of dollars in fees after his bank botched the transaction (mercifully, I didn't lose the entire amount), I will never wire money again. I would recommend the same to anyone else. You don't even have to be dealing with a bad bank; it's just not a safe way to send money to anyone.

The funniest part is I only tried a wire transfer because I didn't want to use PayPal. After that disaster, I ended up choosing the devil I knew and sending all his payments via PayPal after that.

Postal money orders are much more secure if you're sending money within the US. I understand they can be a bit dodgy too though internationally, depending on the professionalism of the national postal service.

Does anyone trust PayPal at all anymore? If you have ever needed technical support from them you'll learn to hate them immediately. I once spent 2 days trying to talk to a real human about deductions from my checking account that had no corresponding line item in paypal. I finally got a human who said he'd call me back, and never did.

I eventually got it sorted, months later. Eff paypal.

I'd like to hear a little more detail than "$5k lost to paypal". When PayPal "decides you are scammers", they hold your funds for 180 days like any other payment service provider (as Visa and MasterCard operational regulations say they should, 180 days is the maximum time most banks allow for chargebacks)... then they return the money (less any chargebacks) to you. The money isn't lost, it's temporarily held.

Paypal's operating rules may have changed, but I've similarly been bitten by money lost due to Paypal.

Here's how the scam works: someone buys something from you on eBay, pays you via Paypal. You diligently send off the good, and delivery confirmation shows it was received. The buyer waits till the last day possible to report the item as not received, Paypal puts your account in the red and you're stuck with the bill.

You provide the tracking number of the shipment and you automatically get the money back. You don't even have to prove anything. Tracking number showing you shipped any package to the buyer's listed address is all you need to be covered by the Seller Protection Policy. If you actually sent them an empty box, they'll have to sue, because PayPal will let you keep that money.

I bought a stolen laptop off ebay. Told paypal it was stolen and they gave me all the money back, just told me to keep the paperwork from sending it back to the owner incase the seller decided to object. I never heard from the seller.

So, did you find the original owner?

yeah, very easily. I sent the laptop back to him.

x.org vs. x.com

That sounds like an awesome court case.

What is the best alternative to paypal for accepting donations or small payments for content on a site?

In my opinion, there are none. Paypal sucks but it's also the best. I tried switching to alternatives for a while, like Paystone, E-Gold, etc. Sales plummeted as a result, they're too confusing for customers.

Warning: Confirmation Bias Hazard Ahead

Please do not forget to take into account all the other money that flow through the paypal channel, successfully.

Given that it is easy for human beings to fall into, I thought I might warn people about it.

Of course, it is "blindingly obvious", but that's because it is hindsight. If I have not post this warning, will a Hacker News reader goes on an rant or ancedote about the evil of Paypal? Who knows.

P.S, I recently got high off reading Black Swan, which provide a fresh perspectives on things in addition to what I simply already know.

Thank you for trying to protect us mere human beings from ourselves.

Naw, I am just a mere human being who just happens to be self-aware of his limitation at this time.

I deceive myself if I think I am not vulnerable to the confirmation bias.

It would be OK if maybe I stole 5% or so of the money you deposit into your account then? I mean take into account all of the money you deposit that does make it...

Its fine for paypal to aggressively pursue fraud, its not fine if paypal sets up a system of incentives for itself that results in them keeping the money of everyone they accuse of fraud. No matter how pure their motives this does not create incentive for them to quickly resolve these cases (or to listen to complaints at all).

I am sorry that I starved you of information with my exceedingly short warning. You read too much into what I said.

Hm. paypal randomly invalidates payments, but as far as I can tell, if I don't get the money, the person sending the money gets it. Hm.

They do this, but apparently they randomly freeze funds too.

Haven't they heard of QuickBooks? This really shouldn't be this complicated for them to know where money went.

Does Quickbooks have a Linux based version these days? Shouldn't that be GNUCash?

how does x.org and x.com have 1 letter domains but b.org and z.org etc are unavailable domains?

Because they were registered before IANA reserved all available single-letter domains in 1993.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-letter_second-level_doma...

never trust any Brazilian financial institution, they are lazy, bureaucratic and profit driven. whenever I need something "odd" from those institutions I spend about 4 or 5 days on phone calls and in-site meetings.

never trust any Brazilian financial institution, they are lazy, bureaucratic and profit driven.

Do you mean that they have perverse incentives?

The Brazilian banking system is actually pretty good. That's not to say that some banks are bad. State-owned banks are usually like you describe, but private banks usually work very well. Bear in mind also that in Brazil financial institutions are the ones who invest the most on IT, by far.

After two years living in the U.S and having banks charging you outrageous fees for the most idiotic reasons, or having transactions taking almost one week to be completed, I can confidently say the Brazilian system has is pretty much first-class.

It's just quite annoying that the Brazilian banks are not in the IBAN system, and only some banks work internationally at all. There are a lot of regional banks you can't even use to pay in another region of the country...

I was mildly surprised to learn that US banks don't participate in IBAN either.

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