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I always love this argument, the NSA routinely uses it in Court to eliminate any challenge based on Standing

Since the NSA will never admit they violated the constitution, no one can get discovery to prove they did, thus they will never be held to account.

The very Nature of "national security" and the ability of the government to literally make everything including the price they pay for a hammer a matter of "national security" and hide these things under the impenetrable cloak of that claim is a major damn problem.

As to the charge they have "disappeared" people, given we know 100% factually that the CIA perpetrated immoral renditions for the purposes of torturing people "legally" I fail to see why you do not believe other branches of the government did not follow the same play book

Hell they have admitted to executing US Citizens with out trial... I do not believe there is anything they will not do.

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The NSA is signals intelligence and while they do tap your internet [1], they don't abduct humans. By your logic, the coast guard is also making citizens "disappear". You've been watching way too many movies.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Room_641A

No one claimed the NSA does (although I do not personally believe they are only SigInt)

The claim was "US Govt.", NSA was only used in reference to law suits where they use national security to get cases tossed.

I'd be very interested in a story about a technology device manufacturer employee--a U.S. citizen--who was disappeared by the U.S. federal government for discussing a national security letter or any other attempt to access information. I've never heard of one, or even the allegation of one.

Even if someone would present such a case there would be soo little tangible evidence and many other "more plausible" theories as to why the person disappeared it would be simply dismissed as a conspiracy

People want to reject the idea their government is immoral, so they do...

Most respectable people are reliable and have numerous responsibilities. If such a person disappears, people would notice... many people.

I am sure they would... At any given time there are ~90,000 people missing in the US, annually something like 250,000 missing person cases are opened.

The charge is not that they would be disappeared and no one would miss them...

Clarification: I said that somebody would notice, not that somebody would care. (fact vs emotion)

Cite your source.

I am skeptical by relying on the "six degrees of separation" theory... I literally know nobody who has ever known anyone (etc) that has been "disappeared".

>>Clarification: I said that somebody would notice, not that somebody would care.

Then I fail to see what your point it, the entire point of "someone would notice" would imply that would be a deterrent to prevent or give pause to the US Government disappearing someone. This would necessitate people caring.

Further, in order for many many people to notice like you said, a good portion of them must care enough to spread that info.. Unless you are thinking the only people that would be disappeared would be someone like Tim Cook, or other High Level person, no it more likely would be some unnamed programmer, or researcher.. not a CEO of a Fortune 100 company who is of no actual value to the US Government.

>>Cite your source.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2014/09/23/mis...

>>I literally know nobody who has ever known anyone (etc) that has been "disappeared".

Are you saying people do not disappear.. Government connection not with standing? All of the missing persons world wide are simply false?

Agreed. The documented style of the modern US national security complex isn't so much to disappear citizens, but rather to explicitly and proudly assert the authority to suspend the 5th amendment and assassinate them [1].

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extrajudicial_killing#United_S...

Not quite disappears but I think the lavabit case is a good example of not being able to talk about anything.

"Disappearing" people isn't really the style of the US government. That's common in South America and was regularly used in the old USSR.

The US prefers to discredit people in the media as "terrorists" (or "gang members", etc) while throwing an unwinnable pile of charges at them to force a confession (aka "plea bargain"). This have the de facto result of keeping someone either in jail for a while or spending 100% of their time and money on defense.

Regardless of how it turns out, draconian probation requirements, pre-employment questions in the style of "have you been charged with a felony" and the arrest and/or criminal record are very effective at finishing the job of "disappearing" someone with unemployment and the social isolation that happens when someone's reputation is trashed. In many states, you can add long-term or permanent disenfranchisement.

The tactics everyone should be paying attention are closer to COINTELPRO, where key people are removed from potential positions of leadership or organization before they accumulate larger amounts of power. With a mass surveillance network and storage that lets you search through someone's past, parallel construction to remove someone on any kind of trumped up charge is easy.

> The US prefers to discredit people in the media as "terrorists" (or "gang members", etc) while throwing an unwinnable pile of charges at them to force a confession (aka "plea bargain"). This have the de facto result of keeping someone either in jail for a while or spending 100% of their time and money on defense.

Can you share an example of this happening to someone who works at a technology device manufacturer? Someone who was in a position to be aware of an NSL that they could spill the beans on?

> technology device manufacturer

That isn't the only industry that can be subject to a NSL. We are lucky to have any of the information at all; if you limit your search to very-specific categories, you risk finding areas that have less public data.

I would start here: https://www.aclu.org/cases/doe-v-holder

> I would start here: https://www.aclu.org/cases/doe-v-holder

That case has nothing to do with discrediting someone as a terrorist or gang member, charging them with any crime, forcing a confession out of them, and really anything to do with criminal charges or jail time at all.

Not quite a device manufacturer, but a technology company: Qwest CEO Joseph Nacchio was convicted of insider trading after allegedly refusing to help the NSA: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Nacchio

It may be a coincidence that he happened to both refuse to help the NSA as well as commit a crime, but "insider trading" as an officer of a company is pretty hazy, especially if you have the NSA informing you that they're going to tank your company's stock if you don't comply.

Thanks, that's good one to think about. Not a "disappearance" per se, but maybe an example (at least an alleged example) of an indirect legal consequence for fighting the NSA.

> rstephenson2 11 hours ago | parent

Wait... Randall Stephenson, is that you?

http://www.att.com/gen/investor-relations?pid=7824

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