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Comment by deftnerd | Hacker News Reader

The current state of the hiring process in tech companies has really affected me. I'm, by nature, a very shy person who doesn't deal with rejection very well.

Because of this, I tend to apply at jobs where my hiring is a slam-dunk because it's so routine and easily within my skill-set.

It results in jobs that aren't particularly fulfilling but gives me plenty of time to work on technology I'm interested in my spare time for personal projects.

In essence, a day job of simple Linux administration may pay the bills, while in my spare time I'm working on large infrastructure automation, deep learning, developing new blockchain technologies, etc.

I don't know how sustainable this is. I have three children and a wife, and I'm getting tired of only being paid for work I can do while asleep just because I'm afraid of rejection.

Any suggestions on how to "toughen up"?

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There is only one way to toughen up: Practice. Be it interviews or sports. Be it negotiations or cooking. Practice and practice perfectly.

1. Take mock interviews from experienced engineers

Go one topic at a time e.g. Recursion or Trees or DP or Multithreading etc. Before you walk into the interview, practice well. Do at least 20 problems on that topic, if not more.

2. Do practice interviews at companies you don't want to work for

Don't feel an imposter in doing this. Realize that companies also go thru several candidates before they pick one. They are normal people like you, they have a learning curve to fill the position, and so do you. Finding the right company, at the right stage of your life, is not a trivial thing to do; it's a project and needs to be managed like that.

Going thru various interviews hardens your skills of negotiation, your understanding of business models, and more importantly, gives you clarity about what your strengths and limitations are.

3. Practice the right mindset

Never go to interviews with a loaded agony of getting a job. Go simply with the intent of solving interesting problems with interesting people ("to add life to your character"). Nobody explains this better than Bryan Cranston (possibly one of the most successful TV actors of recent times): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1WiCGq-PcY

I make these observations based on my experience running a successful bootcamp for interview prep (http://interviewkickstart.com) and also being an early engineer and a hiring manager (Director of engineering) at Box prior to that.

[Edit: specifically mentioned Bryan Cranston by name, based on the comment below]

> Nobody explains this better than the meth guy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1WiCGq-PcY

That clip just increased my already substantial respect for Bryan Cranston, though I feel as though calling him the "meth guy" does him a disservice. Yes, Breaking Bad brought him a great deal of exposure, but I think that even his role in Malcolm in the Middle showed how capable he is as an actor. The fact that he performed both roles excellently is also a testament to his skills.

He's also won a Tony, and was nominated for a few director awards. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_awards_and_nominations...)

Thanks for posting this clip; it is surprisingly universal and applies to a lot of things outside of acting.

Wise words: "You are not going there to get a job, you are going there to present what you do... then walk away."

I think if more people took this attitude of employment being an arrangement of mutual benefit that both sides are engaged in, the world would be a better place.

I think this could be applied to many encounters; dating seems to be the most obvious.

So long as you don't use PowerPoint.

Ice always treated interviews as a way of getting to know a bit about the place I might work. I haven't had a whole heap but had always assumed that it was a two way street.

> I haven't had a whole heap but had always assumed that it was a two way street.

It absolutely is a two-way street, as you describe. When I go on interviews, I get into the mindset that I should interview them as much as they interview me. It's actually saved me from taking on a couple of bad roles.

This is very good advice. The only problem with it is - he will be spending enormous amount of time practicing, preparing for interviews, and end up learning stuff that he might never use in real life. Unless he gets a dream job, I don't know if that is a great use of his time.

The other option is to look for companies that put emphasis on past projects, open source contributions, take home problems etc and apply to those positions. At least this way, he can spend time making things he is interested in.

One would think so, obviously. Most people don't need to work with BSTs on a regular basis.

However, once you start practicing, a funny thing happens: assuming you're doing it the right way, with the right mindset, you start to enjoy doing those problems. Your intuition hardens and a certain level of system-design clarity sets in by seeing similar problems across topics.

In some ways, that's what I'm looking for as a hiring manager, by definition: do you enjoy a problem that is new to you, but still up your alley? Do you have an urge for efficiency? Can you express your thought process and work with me to build a solution? The problems asked in the current interview process are good enough to tease these things out.

Take home assignments and OSS contributions are also another credible method of interviewing, and has its own pros and cons. To see a good treatise on different ways of interviewing, see this: http://www.gayle.com/blog/2015/6/10/developer-interviews-are...

I actually found 'toughening up' the wrong mental strategy, but rather "not giving a damn".

You're in a position where you have a job. Anything you interview for you -don't need-. You may want, but you don't need. You also sound very comfortable in a specific role. That's a great place to start from, because if someone rejects you...what are they rejecting? How does it effect you? You know you're good, at least in certain areas. Either they don't need your knowledge in those areas and aren't convinced you'd be an asset in others (which is fair, and a reflection not on your abilities but your experiences), or their process is broken. Neither is a reflection of you.

I've gotten a lot more comfortable in interviews just recognizing that, that I have successes under my belt, I've already proved I can learn and adapt and get difficult things done. So if in an interview I don't get an offer...that speaks more of their process, or the minutiae of what they're looking for, than it does of my capabilities.

And what's funny is that that devil-may-care attitude, has made me both more willing to speak confidently about what I can do, -and- to more readily admit what I can't. I don't fumble and stutter when asked do I know about (a thing I don't know about), and give some half-truth, I just flat out say "I don't. What is it?" And that has led to better interviews, and more offers, than I ever got when I was a scared junior dev looking for work.

This works for me, and is generally how I've dealt with high pressure situations throughout my life. I just sort of go into "eh, don't give a fuck" mode, and try to joke around with people about how I don't give a fuck about the outcome (if comfort level with said people is appropriate, like fellow students). It's just a way that I calm myself so that my brain can effectively recall my practice / training to help me execute better at the critical moment.

Interviews are much like tests in school. The pressure is high, you only have a moment to recall the information and act correctly, you have very little leverage over the situation... and in both cases they are probably poor indicators of what is being measured :-)

Maybe the similarity to tests in schools is the origin of programming interviews came to be the way they are...

> I actually found 'toughening up' the wrong mental strategy, but rather "not giving a damn".

I believe this is called having a great BATNA. You always want to have a plan B, and preferably a plan C. That's why you should always be networking (and, if you are a company or hiring manager, always be recruiting: http://avc.com/2012/07/mba-mondays-guest-post-from-chad-dick... ).

I find that contracting is a great way to practice "not giving a damn" because you can cycle through 3-5 contracts (of various sizes) in the time that 1 w2 job would take. That means you get all kind of experience with different colleagues and processes and tech sets.

Also, the act of repeatedly putting yourself out there will thicken your skin and let you realize that sometimes it isn't about you, but rather is about the company/client.

That's to say nothing of the benefits of learning to run your own business and marketing and budgeting. (If that floats your boat.)

Amen with respect to cycling contracts. Landing a great job is essentially about reducing information asymmetry, and this gives a great means of doing so.

It also means you can move on from several different situations without having a series of short term jobs on your resume. Which still matters.

I think the "not giving a damn" statement belies that you do actually care.

Like someone saying "I don't care" implies... yes, you do care, otherwise you would not state such a thing.

Being a bit pedantic there aren't you? Sure, if I wasn't interested, I wouldn't be interviewing. But recognizing that the interview's outcome doesn't reflect who I am, nor does it mean 'my life is over and I'll never get a job I like', or any of the other anxieties common to those first few job hunts, means I am not so invested in -succeeding-, and far more invested in just scoping the company out, seeing if this would be a good fit, and accepting a "no" as in no way a reflection of my quality.

Obviously, "not giving a damn" is hyperbole; as I said, if I really didn't give a damn I'd not be interviewing in the first place. But it is the most accurate description of the attitude I find myself having when interviewing. "Toughening it out" was what I did as a college student and junior dev, trying to fight the impostor syndrome as I try to convince strangers I'm worth hiring, and trying to hold down the feelings of depression and self-loathing afterwards as I criticized every single thing I did that I thought was a mistake in the interview (even successful ones that in hindsight I realize I absolutely aced), and tried not to think about how I just blew my chance at a dream job (because every company that I talked with was a dream job, after all; someone who would actually -pay- me to write code and solve problems!)

I instead describe my current attitude as "not giving a damn" to demarcate it as very much different than that prior experience; my feelings now are "I am good, I know a lot, I learn fast, and I have a track record to prove it, and if you say no it means either you want someone with different experiences who is looking for something very different than what I am, or you've been interviewing for (and thus hiring for) the wrong thing; in either case I don't think I'd enjoy it here. So, while I hope this works out in the affirmative...I will view a 'no' from you as a positive as well, because it tells me more about you than it does about me. Regardless of your response, I am relieved to hear it, hence, I don't give a damn what it is".

Did you notice that this thread is about mental strategies?

Exactly. Interviewing is a lot more comfortable if you do it from the security of having a job. If they don't want you, then no problem.

And more than that, the interview process is also to determine if you actually want to work for them. You can reject them, even if they want to hire you. Interviewing becomes a much more symmetrical affair. You have power too. You can afford to say no, and you can afford them to say no.

Go do theatersport or "impro". It may sound scary, but when in a small group without spectators, you start easy, make small steps, and it helps you get out of your shell. One of the mottos is "to fail with pleasure". You will fail here, and they design games where everybody will fail. You will practise rejection here. Plus you can practise social status with status games.

I had stage fright. In several weeks I'll do my second public show, for a small audience. It can really turn your view of yourself around.

You can read books about it, but you have to do it, experience it. It's much less frightening when you do it then you think, because of the small steps. But you need a good teacher here, one that knows what he does and has done it for years. In general, it's really fun!

Instead of toughening up, I'd suggest two things:

* Try to get ahead in your day job. This doesn't necessarily mean making the big bucks. It means being someone who deserves the big bucks. To find better work and more money you'll probably have to leave. Maybe not, but probably.

* Find new jobs through word of mouth, networking, etc. In my experience, this does not equal a slam dunk hire, but it'll get you an interview and they will actually converse with you. They want to find out why you were recommended, and that's a whole different feeling that being "screened".

Potential sources of recommendations and job leads include former coworkers (and bosses!), people you meet at user groups, interest groups, etc.

Rejection is just a part of life.. I was really scared of rejection till one day I just gave in and told myself that, I'll never get anywhere playing the safe hand.

My advice is go on interviews you don't even care about in hopes to get rejected. Some places might tell you to leave like half way through an interview which is awkward, but most will shoot you an email or you just never hear from them.

Once you get a few rejections under your belt, you learn its not a big deal. I've know some incredibly smart people get rejected. Most times you get rejected because its not a culture fit so its for the better.

> My advice is go on interviews you don't even care about in hopes to get rejected.

This was an immense help when I recently decided to switch companies. I applied to places I didn't really want to work at so that I could either:

1. Get rejected and get used to hearing/reading those words while not taking it personally.

2. Work on my negotiation skills if I actually got an offer.

Either way it was a win-win for me in terms of what I was really trying to achieve.

You may come across a dream job posting one day and if you can block out the worry of rejection you'll have a higher chance of success.

I've recommended this to everyone I've mentored, even when I was their boss. Interviewing is a skill that can be honed. Some people are naturally better than others, but most people can at least get comfortable.

Up until recently I would take two or three interviews a year at minimum just to see what people were asking about, how they asked, and just to stay comfortable with the process.

Worst case scenario, they say no, and you might get a hint as to why. So now you have an idea of something you can improve on.

Best case scenario you wind up interested in a new company, get a raise, and learn something new.

Either way, it's time you're spending to improve your career- and it is likely more monetarily valuable than the same amount of time you would have spent writing code.

>Any suggestions on how to "toughen up"?

Keep doing the admin work to pay the bills. Switch off when you leave.

Work towards turning the other work into a viable consultancy/small business.

Stop thinking like an employee.

If you're running your own micro-startup - and it sounds like something you're perfectly capable of making this work - you won't need to worry about getting rejected.

In fact you'll probably get recruiters reaching out to you.

This may not result in a job, but it's a lot easier not to care what happens in an interview if you have a secure income stream as well as an impressive resume.

Apply for jobs you've no intention of taking if offered. Use them as practice. Use them to toughen up. Knowing in advance that it doesn't matter, and that you'll never see or hear from the people involved ever again, and that the final outcome - that nothing will change and you're risking nothing - might be liberating enough that you can do it.

This is actually kind of a bad thing to do, since you're intentionally wasting other people's time.

Companies interview multiple candidates looking for the best one, and they'll solicit applications from candidates that will never make it past a phone screen.

Why wouldn't you do the same with companies?

Companies don't go into the interview saying "we'll never hire this person, we're just talking to them for the practice".

It's fine to interview at multiple companies that you might consider taking an offer from, but interviewing at a place you know you'll say no to strikes me as, yes, wasting their time (and money, as we usually have a few people interviewing one candidate at the same time).

I believe companies certainly do interview people they don't intend to hire, to get a feel for things like what the field is like, or what the expected salary for prospects with certain skills are. I've heard there are situations where they have a person in mind for a position, but because of corporate policies they're required to post the job and interview people.

I've seen these sorts of shenanigans happen at a public university, where they already know whom they want to hire, and even create a new position specifically for them, but are required to post the job opening to their public-facing jobs website, and are forced to interview at least X number of the people whom apply.

It's never "I will never take the job". I am sure if offered 2x current salary (or 3x if work is especially unpleasant), most people will jump.

... while getting better at interviewing and saving your own time, money and career in the process.

No reason to feel bad about it especially if it is a big corp. These days employers throw careers under the bus at the whim of asshole mba's. And, no, employer's won't agree to "informational interviews" any more.

In any case no one has to know except the interviewee.

> Apply for jobs you've no intention of taking if offered. Use them as practice.

This runs afoul of the same mental-block when it comes to worrying about your self-identity. It's trading the possibility of "Oh man, what if they think I'm incompetent?" for the self-certainty of "Shit, I'm a horrible person who lied to them and deliberately wasted their time."

Anybody already self-assured enough to "be the jerk" probably isn't that worried about "being rejected".

Lot of advice below on how to toughen up for interviews, but I'm going to give a contrarian view: you can't toughen up if it's not in you already.

Tech interviews are an exhausting, often humiliating experience. Some companies claim to do it better (e.g., see Asana's post a few days ago) and more humanely, but by and large the process is designed to break the candidate: to see the limits of their skills and aptitudes. Excellent in theory for the company, but very hard on the candidate.

Even if you do mostly-great in an interview, you'll probably not quite finish the programming assignment, and feel like a dunce for it (and you'll know the answer on your walk back to your car). If you don't get an offer, it will serve as confirmation of your ineptitude and you'll kick yourself for it.

It's super tough and I have very good friends --and easily world-class 1% engineers-- who have crumbled during the process.

My advice: you seem to know yourself pretty well. That's so valuable. Play to your own strengths and don't bother trying to toughen up for interviews.

Oh, advice #2: get into an awesome job via a friend, if you can, and maybe your friend can make sure they don't haze you too hard.

Good luck!

I don't think tech company interviews are purposefully setup to be brutal gauntlets but I think what in reality occurs is a team needs to hire quickly, members tap into past experiences and then build a process. This process may be wildly inconsistent or draw from past negative experiences. Before you know it you've built a brutal hiring process. I think the real problem is developers lack hiring and interview training.

I think you have hit the nail on the head, my interview experience at a single company (currently employed, didn't interview anywhere else) had a very high variance in terms of questions/approaches so I can see this playing a significant part in determination of appropriateness of a potential New Hire.

Personal experience is important in terms of rapidly evaluating a candidate! If a team is composed of 10 people and you interview with each and each brings something a little different to the table, that seems OK to me. It gives a candidate exposure to the people they would be working with, kind of like dating.

Have someone else apply for you. Your wife probably.

You find the job and tell her you are too nervous to apply, let her know it's OK to apply for you.

Sometime seceding that bit of control is enough to get over the problem - especially when you have self awareness of it.

Once she applies you will probably feel an urge to take over and continue the conversation with the employer - so do that, and take it to an interview. (Or have her do it for you, while you hover in the background looking worried and telling her what to say :)

It's kind of a way of forcing/tricking yourself.

(Hopefully she doesn't say something like "man up and do it", ask her not to if you think she might, tell her you need her to help you with this.)

How do I apply for a wife? I'm pretty nervous and I get rejected a lot.

Honestly getting a job is way easier.

What are you more afraid of? Rejection from a company you never have to talk to again OR your family being unhappy as a result of you 1) being unhappy with your job 2) feeling like you aren't doing as much as you can or should.

This might just be something you have to confront. But I think constantly confronting your fears is healthy, even if it's difficult and stressful.

It sounds like you're genuinely enthusiastic about engineering and computer science. I think talking about your side projects (deep learning, blockchain, etc) will show this very effectively. Actually, having side projects to talk about is sort of like a secret weapon at job interviews. You'll find if you learn how to talk about these your interviews will go really well, so long as you can do a somewhat above average job on the technical questions (which can happen with practice and luck).

That being said, I can't give much help on being shy as I've never really dealt with that. I did used to be kind of.... not the best with social situations, and I found that by being chatty and going out of your way to meet people randomly, you end up getting good at it pretty quickly. Of course I sucked at this at first, but I had a friend who was extremely chatty and whenever we hanged out in public he would always be talking to random people. By joining in I sorta got the hang of it, and that helped a lot.

Also never be afraid of being silly. Making mistakes can make people feel more comfortable around you because they stop worrying about keeping up their own image of being a normal human being (what does normal even mean?). That works more for meeting people and MUCH LESS in job interviews, but meeting people will make you less shy, which in turn can help with interviews.

Don't fall into the trap of believing you can't change yourself. Simply by acknowledging what you'd like to change about yourself, you've already begun the first step. I think you already know you need to do something. Hopefully this is the impetus. I've seen friends totally change personalities and go from being shy to confident, or silly to mature. You can overcome your fear of rejection. Just get rejected a lot so that it becomes a trivial thing you can laugh at.

Do you like working on those things in your spare time? The flip side of what you seek is that with a more challenging day job, you may not have as much energy or desire to tackle those projects in your spare time.

This is essentially an anxiety issue. It's definitely possible to hack anxiety - it might be a good idea to see a psychologist/psychiatrist to help figure out how, cause that's essentially what they do.

And if CBT doesn't work there's always beta-blockers, heh.

It is not an anxiety issue. Interviews are structured ridiculously, most being the equivalent of a dick wagging contest or a beauty pageant. Companies are falling over themselves not to hire the best talent, but just the youngest people who can recite the algorithm to find a subtree in a tree.

Yes. So last time I was looking for a job, I became good at reciting algorithms, looking like a "team player", whatever the fuck they wanted. I didn't like it, I felt some degree of trepidation over my interviews, but I didn't have crippling anxiety or anything.

Jumping through arbitrary hoops is completely normal for most professions. The main issue here is being so anxious that one finds it impossible to work up the courage to interview in the first place.

I suggest you build up your network of contacts at your current job. That means get to know others, help the out, make sure they know your career interests, etc. When some of those move to a new company, they will think of you when opportunities open up. Usually hires through internal referral get special treatment at many companies if the referring individual feels strongly. They can allay any concerns the the interviewers have.

Look at interviews as an interesting opportunity to learn. Try to make sure that the company who is interviewing with you respects that. If it's going to be all one sided / grind you in front of a white board, I'd skip it. Make sure they let you ask questions about their stack, their development methodology, etc. That way interviews are always a profitable experience.

> in my spare time I'm working on large infrastructure automation, deep learning, developing new blockchain technologies, etc

Sounds interesting! Did you try to give presentations on these things? Start with small conferences/hackathons/user groups. Use YouTube if there is nothing local available.

Also, theater worked really well for me as well.

I assume you're describing some variation of anxiety. Social anxiety is helped tremendously by exposure. Go do stuff in social settings you're uncomfortable with (not anything dangerous or against your morals obviously). It will gradually get better. More interviewing practice will also make it better.

Oh man, oh man. You asked a doozy of a question. 'Toughness' is a heck of an ill defined term in Western Society, but still hearkens to something we all innately feel. I'll not bore you with a long essay, but give you some resources to start on the journey, should you choose to proceed with earnest.

My biggest recommendation is, of course, google: https://www.google.com/search?q=how+to+toughen+up&oq=how+to+...

For a better site, I'd suggest The Art of Manliness. Brett McKay likely has a degree or 2 in Men's Studies at this point on his site. I like him because he gives good advice, tell you when something is not going to be easy to think about, and he lives what he talks and tracks changes to his advice, sometimes calling out old posts of his as wrong. Here are some links on toughness, but the whole site is great:

http://www.artofmanliness.com/2015/10/26/the-sioux-guide-to-...

http://www.artofmanliness.com/2015/05/07/men-and-scars/

http://www.artofmanliness.com/2014/07/17/keep-your-head-4-ex...

http://www.artofmanliness.com/2013/10/03/you-may-be-strong-b...

http://www.artofmanliness.com/2013/11/04/dig-deep-youre-stro...

http://www.artofmanliness.com/2015/03/12/podcast-105-resilie...

If you's like some reading on toughness and the more historical view on it, no better book is there out there than Dr Carlin Barton's 'Roman Honor: The Fire in the Bones'. Her book is really a masterpiece in manliness, toughness, and much more. Available here: http://www.amazon.com/Roman-Honor-The-Fire-Bones/dp/05202252...

Finally, no real discussion and initial voyage into toughness would be possible without mentioning the patron saint of toughness and hardihood, Teddy Roosevelt. The Edmund Morris Trilogy on our manly lord is the best biography I know of, though I think the 1st one is the best: http://www.amazon.com/Edmund-Morriss-Theodore-Roosevelt-Tril... (bonus points for the Churchill series too: http://www.amazon.com/Last-Lion-Box-Set-Churchill/dp/0316227...)

Hope it helps!

Interviewing is a number game. Treat it as one and it will make your live easier.

There is a game for rejection that's definitely worth checking out: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1754790

I went out of my comfort zone recently, it helps and you won't end up working at cost-centers/body shops aka ad-agencies and "consultant firms"

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