Wine Tech Upstart Drops Smart Bottle on a $300B Industry | Hacker News Reader

Wine Tech Upstart Drops Smart Bottle on a $300B Industry

bloomberg.com

24 pointsacdanger52 comments

So if I understand correctly, I would not only need to buy the 200 $ "smart bottle" to drink wine, but could also only use it with specialized "wine cartridges"? Honestly, this sounds more like something that the printer industry would come up with.

And it keeps getting better: Using Wifi (!), the bottle sends me information about the wine that I'm about to drink to my smartphone. You mean, like a label? And it also knows when I opened it so that I can rate the wine I'm drinking, again using Wifi?

Probably I'm just getting too old for all this, but I think some things are just fine they way there are and don't need to get any "smarter". A glass bottle with a cork (be it wooden, plastic or glass) is an almost perfect solution for storing wine already: It can be produced at mass and at very low cost, can be kept for decades and can be recycled. It is also easy to transport, hard to break, (reasonably) opaque to UV light and still allows the wine inside to "breathe" (again, depending on the type of cork used).

If you are really worried about your wine starting to oxidize and ferment after opening it, simply put it in the refrigerator, which will slow that process significantly. Alternatively, you could transfer the leftover quantity to a smaller "dumb" bottle (make sure it's compatible with your bottle's interface though ;)), which will minimize the amount of air in the bottle and keep the wine from going bad.

I am with you all the way except for the cork. Here in Australia we have almost 100% converted over to the far superior Stelvin screw tops [1]. The only time I have to get out my corkscrew is when I drink European wine.

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Screw_cap_(wine)

Yes that's a valid point, glass or screw caps are also used increasingly in Europe now, but cork remains in heavy use especially for the pricier wines. In France (and many other countries) it would be very difficult to sell a "good" wine with a screw top, as people just expect the cork as part of the "user experience".

There was quite a lot of initial consumer resistance when first introduced, but over time we all got used to it. Even very expensive wines uses screw caps these days - not getting wine that is “corked” (i.e. tastes like wet newspaper) anymore is fantastic. Screwcaps really are a superior way to seal wine.

> but cork remains in heavy use especially for the pricier wines.

At my local grocery in california the most expensive wine is screw-top and most of the cheaper ones have corks. My favorite wine name is screw-kappa-napa which is a medium priced wine that comes in screw-top bottle.

Do you produce the cork in Australia? Maybe it's not worth to ship it around the world just to be serve as a cap on a consumable.

Cork is degradable, recyclable, and does a very good job at a specific thing. It's the bark of a tree which regenerates every few years, so its harvest leaves the tree unharmed.

Maybe it makes sense for Australia not to use it but I don't see why it should be replaced everywhere.

Cork introduces cork taint [1]. My personal experience is around 1 bottle out of 12 is badly enough affected by cork taint to degrade the wine. With screw caps you just don’t get this which is great.

The only real issue with screw caps is the wine makers inexperience with using them can put too much sulphite in the wine, but this is a problem that has mostly gone away over time.

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cork_taint

> My personal experience is around 1 bottle out of 12 is badly enough affected by cork taint to degrade the wine.

You know, I like wine. I've drunk plenty of wine in my time. I've read folks write things like '1 bottle out of 12 [is cork-tainted].' And yet I've never, ever had a taint bottle of wine. Is it just that I'm drinking younger wines?

FWIW, I love real corks and I hate how wine and liquor bottles have been replacing them with lifeless plastic.

Not everyone is affected to the same degree by cork taint - you might be one of those lucky people that are not sensitive to it. If you have never had a bottle of tainted wine then this is quite likely.

You can really notice cork taint when you are drinking the same wine/ vintage regularly. You will open a bottle and it just tastes "flat" compared to what you are expecting. Open another bottle of the same wine and it tastes fine. This is cork taint.

I fully believe that such a screw cap is objectively superior. But I really like the ritual of finding a cork-screw and POP pulling out the cork. For me it's all just different concentrations of ethanol without the ceremony.

I used to think the same too, but it really is just habit. Once you get used to it the “crack” sounds as good as the “pop”. About the only downside is you lose the skill to get out an old cork intact - the last few I have attempted I have absolutely butchered.

Sounds a lot like coffee pods, where you also pay considerably more for a bit more convenience (and a lot more waste).

Gee, I'd love to pay 200 bucks for the privilege of entering someone's walled garden stocked with DRM'ed wine cartridges.

This is bizarre. Insofar as this is solving a "problem", it's essentially solved by a Coravin, and I never thought I'd say this about the Coravin, but cheaper given that anyone who wants to do this will want to do with multiple wines (aside from overenthusiastic hobbyists, Coravins are mostly used to serve very expensive wines by the glass).

EDIT: I think I misread initially -- you can use it for multiple bottles, but only their prepackaged wines? No one with this money to burn on wine accessories is going to want the narrow range of wines they're going to be able to offer.

I agree. Plus, the Coravin argon cannisters are very inexpensive compared to what these will sell for.

If this is a serious problem, what about simply packaging Wine in 6-12 oz bottles? Single serve glass wine. This looks like a really over engineered solution to a rather simple problem.

The actual problem is that some people have too much money. The expensive, high-tech wine bottle solves the problem.

I agree. Other than maybe an giving a subconscious association with wine coolers, it seems less wasteful in addition to being simpler and easier.

They have these in larger supermarkets in the UK. Usually 1/4 of a shelf compared to the 20 odd shelves of normal wine.

There's not much of a demand.

There would be if the wine were decent. Typically, smaller bottles are from rubbish brands and cater mostly to alcoholists. Same in Italy.

I guess the main costs for wine producers are not the bottle nor the wine, so there would be little price differentiation (which is essential) and moving larger quantities of 1 format is better than moving smaller quantities of 2. A lot of producers struggle as it is, so supporting another format is hard. Still, if a cartel of producers agreed on a secondary format, pooled costs and launched a "tasting" line, maybe it would be viable.

Boxed wine solves this problem too. It's just that very little good wine is sold in boxes. But this start up will likely have the same problem. You aren't going to find your favorite wine in a wine version k-cup (W-cups?).

Now you could argue that maybe they are going to get good wine and make good W-cups. But people are making "good" boxed wines now too.

Sticking wifi on it just seems like a gimmick.

The industry is way ahead of you: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wine_bottle#Sizes

There is a company in the current YCombinator batch doing intro deliveries of wine-by-the-glass. The vessel looks like a test tube crossed with a wine bottle:

http://getvinebox.com/

Of the hundreds of people I've seen drink wine, never once have I heard this as an issue.

Many bottles are only partially consumed, which is why some wines (such as delicate dry sherries which can spoil in a matter of hours) are often packaged in half-bottles. That being said, I think the product in the OP is not a good solution.

Is this really a widespread problem? A bottle of wine is...3-6 glasses. For one person, yes, that's a lot for one night, but for two people, not really.

Every time I've seen one of these new packaging options, it was actually a better value to open a bottle of reasonable wine, drink 1-2 glasses, and throw away the rest. (I am fine with the vacuum pump cork thing for a day or two, too)

Don't throw away the rest. Keep it aside and check the quality the next evening or cook with it.

U.S. consumers typically drink 1-2 glasses per person, or 2/3 of the bottle.

Or buy a nitrogen or argon system[1] for about the same price ($200 v $300), but which instead is compatible with any bottle and lasts indefinitely after opening instead of 30 days.

Or just buy the gas directly for $20[2], which in theory works just as well as long as you leave the bottle upright, or at least inject enough heavy gas to create a layer covering the air/liquid surface area.

[1] http://www.amazon.com/Coravin-1000-Wine-System-Black/dp/B00G...

[2] http://www.amazon.com/Private-Preserve-Wine-Preservation-Spr...

You're not going to be able to "touch screen" a new bottle of wine if you live in any number of states that won't allow wine to be shipped to you from out of state unless the distributor is willing to pay what effectively boils down to a tariff on wine imports.

And what's up with "$300B industry"? It's like someone opening a deli and saying they are disrupting $X00 billion food industry.

Yup, exactly :)

VC approach to these silly "disruptive enterprises" is statistically sound: throw 1000 pieces of shit (disruptive enterprises) on the wall, see what sticks. 95% of them will just slide down; but they won't cost too much ("grow big or fail fast"), and some % might get some traction, and hopefully cover for the other 95%.

This also works with books and movies and computer games etc, it is fun.

As someone who actually works in the packaged beverage industry and has had a lot of wine experience... no.

The last thing we're looking for is a way to make our package more expensive and limit the number of customers we can reach.

A smaller form factor (not necessarily this particular one, which looks stupid) could give you more consumers though. Coke sells more cans than 2-L bottles, after all. If I could buy something like a half-bottle at 75% of a full one, packing good wine, I would buy loads of different ones.

As it is, I know that I would overspend for a couple of glasses, because my wife doesn't drink; or I would have to limit myself to the industrial plonk, the only stuff that comes in smaller formats. So I buy a beer or soft drink instead.

375ml 'half bottles' have been around for a very long time. The claim from those with a discerning enough palate is that the wine develops differently inside the smaller container, and thus the 750ml is ideal.

I recently tried a few canned (12 oz) wines that were surprisingly nice.

Like wine, the breadth of beers sold in smaller packages is growing, but for the full variety you have to purchase larger 22oz bottles.

> The claim [...] is that the wine develops differently inside the smaller container

Is there some reason they couldn't let it "develop" an appropriate amount of time inside the larger container, then divide the result into small beer-sized containers (cans or bottles) for sale to end-consumers?

Wine is already available in half-bottles, at various restaurants and elsewhere.

You wouldn't be interested in getting real time (aggregated/anonymized) data on the drinking habits of your customers?

Better solution: a smaller reusable container for storing your surplus wine overnight.

Even better solution: friends.

Trying to convince people to spend $200 + markup on each cartridge to save money on spoilage seems like a challenging proposition, especially when some (such as myself) would see this as a worse user experience.

E-readers such as the Kindle seem to have succeeded at convincing a large consumer segment to make a small capital investment, but only by offering some additional features and reducing incremental costs (i.e. book prices).

Private Preserve [1] is a good, inexpensive solution to this problem.

[1] http://www.amazon.com/Private-Preserve-Wine-Preservation-Spr...

The real "solution" is for wine producers to sell half-bottles. It's something that most others food producers have adapted to, but somehow the upmarket wine sector is stuck on wasteful multi-person formats.

Wine producers already sell half-bottles. I imagine they prioritise what they sell more of.

FWIW, my wife buys sparkling white in 200mL bottles.

Many of the comments here are about the technology, which isn't that revolutionary.

Wine drinkers are highly ritualistic, especially in the U.S. Despite decades of science and engineering around better packaging, drinkers still hold on to the idea that wine must be in a corked bottle. While I'm not sure that Kuvee has found "the" solution, I think it's interesting that they're taking a "build a more luxurious bottle" approach to convincing consumers to switch.

Is this "technology" just a fancy version of Franzia, aka inexpensive box wine?

Basically, But with this you get to feel less trashy than drinking from boxed wine. I guess, I dunno, I got nuthin.

This was my response. There are lots and lots of different boxed wine brands nowawdays, with different levels of quality and price.

Do you buy a single one of these as a consumer, then put a bottle into it? Or is every bottle like this? Or do you buy a unit, then special bottles which only go into the unit?

From the article:

The core of the system is a decanter that sells for $199 and looks like an oversize wine bottle. Ranging in price from $15 to $50, the canisters slide into the bottom and click in place. Equipped with a bladder and special valve, the wine can be poured without any oxygen seeping in, and drinkers can swap out a Pinot noir for a Syrah by ejecting one canister and clicking in another. After an initial pour, Kuvée wines will stay fresh for about 30 days.

devil is, as usual, in details. while wine industry could be 300bn, wine bottle industry is significantly smaller, as in, my guess, 100 times smaller. And if you really worry about oxidation - vacuum pumps are significantly cheaper, around 20usd. and you can use those now, on any bottle. I think their small niche could be lonely restaurant goers, who would appreciate fancy bottle and taste without having to buy it for 200$

Given the same choices of wine I would choose a card board box and a plastic bladder every time.

I'm sure I'll see this on Internet Of Shit's twitter feed real soon.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com