Hacker News Reader

Comment by jensen123 | Hacker News Reader

> Re: the conversation about walk-ability of cities. The key concept here is density. We need to value density as it allows for more compact living.

Another thing that perhaps needs to be valued more is sound insulation. I currently live in an apartment in a dense, walk-able city in Europe. However, I'm tempted to buy myself a house and a car, because I'm so sick and tired of all the noise that comes from living in an apartment in a dense area (neighbors, construction nearby, drunk people late at night etc.). Without good sound insulation, I don't think density works, although maybe it's just me who are more sensitive to this than other people.

View on HN

Yes please. As someone who is the one making the noise and feels bad for neighbors, I really want better sound insulation.

I am renting a house which is much larger than I need just because I practice piano and don't want to disturb my neighbors. If not for this I would rent a place closer to work.

They make sound insulating and deadening foam. Put the piano in a small internal room and line the room with acoustic foam: http://amzn.to/1o9CGjb Living closer to work must be worth 2 of these for $160?

An electronic piano with headphones may even be an acceptable alternative.

No. Just no.

There are full acoustic/electric hybrid pianos with mechanical actions that have the ability to be used with headphones only.

http://usa.yamaha.com/products/musical-instruments/keyboards...

I actually had one of these and can tell you that unfortunately the technology just isn't there.

The action is the same but the way it reacts and sounds isn't, and at least for classical music, learning the nuances of the sound (and pedal!) is the hardest part..

That's a shame :-(. I've never played one myself but I definitely imagine it to be superior to most/all keyboards.

Why not? In a former life, I used such pianos.

The "make it sound like a wood-and-felt-and-wire piano" issue is solved. The "make the key action feel like a physical piano" is (based on my extensive side-by-side testing) close enough to solved that -if one's concerned about bothering the neighbors with the sound of your playing and one has the money- purchasing a good model is a no-brainer.

Yeah, things like http://www.rolandus.com/products/v-piano/ are absolutely competitive with acoustic pianos. Multiple acoustic pianos, in fact.

Sorry for accidental downvote. I have an electronic piano in my flat; it works well for managing noise levels outwith acceptable hours.

I actually have an electric piano as well and even though it has a mechanical action but it still doesn't come close unfortunately.

I guess I am relatively serious for an amateur but the piano is a very difficult instrument to master and so I just feel like since I have such a limited time to practice I rather make that time as effective as possible. That means playing on an acoustic and thus making a lot of noise sadly..

Yeah, foam doesn't really "soundproof" anything. Foam is normally for sound treatment, so you get less interference when making music for mixing / mastering / recording purposes. You need extra drywall / more insulation / sheetrock / mass loaded vinyl / wall decoupling to actually block sound.

This sort of foam isn't for soundproofing, but for reflection-proofing. If you treat your room with this and make noise, your neighbors will still hear it just as loudly as before, but inside your own room, the sound will have less reverberation and echoes, making it sound more focused.

For soundproofing you need dense materials with lots of mass. Things like mass loaded vinyl, rockwool sheets, or even full-on room in a room. It can get pretty expensive [0]

I agree with the other commentor, a nice digital piano with headphones, or speakers you can adjust the volume out of would be the best option.

[0] http://www.amazon.com/Loaded-Vinyl-Square-Acoustic-Barrier/d...

There are two broad categories of approaches you use when dealing with sound. One is controlling sound transmission, and the other is shaping/controlling diffusion. In general these types of foams act as diffusers, which influences the sound inside the room, but have very little impact on sound transmission, which is what most people think of when they say 'sound proofing'. Dealing with sound transmission generally requires lots of mass, isolation, and careful attention of air-tightness. Think about how a thermos is constructed and you start to get the idea.

Honest question: can't you just get a high-quality digital piano and use headphones?

I'm not a pianist but I can tell the difference between the best sampled piano synths and a real piano so there's no doubt a pianist can too. Of course it's better than nothing but a musician could prefer living far from work than not having a real piano at home.

I actually have a high quality digital (Yamaha N1). It even has the same action as a grand piano. Unfortunately, every time I went to my lessons to play on a real grand I had practically no control. The pedal especially is completely different on a real piano.

Also there are just so much more sounds you can produce on a real piano. I know it's weird since it's a percussive instrument but for whatever reason the way you hit the keys makes a difference.

It's interesting that you say that. In an earlier conversation on density and walk-able neighborhoods, I seem to recall a number of people from Europe saying that noise wasn't as much of a problem as in dense parts of the US because of different construction traditions. (Europe is a diverse place, of course, so it might just be down to regional differences.)

That could be. It's especially renovations in the same building where I live that has been the problem here. I'm guessing this is a bigger problem (more renovations!) in a large building, than a small one.

Regarding renovations: whenever someone takes a rotary hammer to concrete, it will be fairly noisy no matter how good the sound proofing is. That sound will travel in the entire structure even if the building is 400 feet wide.

Any apartment or house old enough to have plaster walls will be much more soundproof. That stuff is dense and heavy and it's usually at least an inch thick, more than sheetrock/drywall.

Europe is a big place, I think the construction norms can differ too.

I was in some appartments in Nantes, France, and the windows could let you hear outside (so things like buses going by in the day). In my Tokyo apartment I hear police cars go by (actually, every Sunday I get the black cars from the fascists[0]).

I think there's some better sound isolation in France rather than Tokyo (at least in smaller appartments), but Japan also knows that making too much noise is pretty rude. Usually you're not allowed to play instruments in your place unless you got explicit permission when signing the contract (usually implies that the unit has better isolation). And you try not to hit the walls too often.

I think it's part "don't be a dick", and part "get used to it". It's likely possible to isolate better but it's likely expensive on smaller units (because of the space required).

Though honestly, even when I was in Texas suburbs, there's still noise from traffic and neighbors. It was easier to get peace and quiet though.

[0]:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyoku_dantai

I use ear plugs, but that's not ideal of course. I used to live in a 200 year old brick building on the 4th story in a dense, walkable area and surprisingly it wasn't too bad. Now I live in a second story apartment in a much lower density city and the traffic noise is far worse than the human noise I used to hear.

Suburbia has the incessant sound of lawnmowers, leafblowers, and barking dogs.

As well as denser cities. In LA, it's daily. Each small patch of grass between sidewalk and street cut or weedwhacked and the blower comes out even if a broom would be quieter and only slightly less efficient.

Leafblowers are vile. I would take plenty of drunks walking by at 2 AM over a horde of leafblowers at 7 AM.

I used to live in Santa Monica, and it was only upon leaving that I realized how utterly wonderful their leafblower ban was. Of course, the diesel pickups in the alley behind my apartment were less fun, but I guess you have to choose your battles.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com