Comment by nly | Hacker News Reader

Comment by nly | Hacker News Reader

Nobody has forgotten. These people never knew to begin with.

NPM/JS has subsumed the class of programmer who would have previously felt at home inside PHPs battery-included ecosystem. Before that, a similar set of devs would have felt at home with Visual Basic. Seriously, go visit the comments section on archived copies of the PHP documentation. You'll find code of a similar nature. If PHP had had a module system 10+ years ago you would have seen this phenomenon then. Instead it was copy and paste.

This isn't elitism, it's just the way it is. The cost of a low barrier to entry in to a software ecosystem is taking in those who don't yet have software engineering experience.

Nobody should be surprised that NPM, which I believe has more packages than any other platform, is 90% garbage. There are only so many problems to solve and so few who can solve them well, in any language. Put 100 programmers in a room, each with 10 years experience, and you'll be lucky to find 1 who has written a good library. Writing libraries is really hard.

This is the answer, 100%. All it takes to publish an npm package, is the command npm publish, and you're done. So of course it is no surprise that there are tons upon tons of seemingly useless or tiny projects (gotta pad out that github profile for those recruiters!), or that there are then plenty of packages that use them.

Add into that the fact that:

1) Javascript has a huge number of developers, and is often an entry-level language

2) The developers on this thread (I like to think of HN as at least slightly above average) are divided whether having small packages / large dependencies trees is a good or bad thing

3) Dependency management is something that matters mostly to long term (professional / enterprise / etc) applications, which is a subset of programming, and I wonder if not a minority subset of node.js projects in general.

4) If I'm writing a throwaway app or proof of concept, and therefore don't care about dependency maintenance, using as many dependencies as possible is a major time savor,

and of course you get this situation, and it seems to make perfect sense.

Personally, I wish there was an NPM Stable, where packages underwent much more scrutiny and security in order to get it, but nonetheless, nothing I've read so far about npm really scares me given the the above context. If you are a dev creating an unmanageable dependency tree for your enterprise app, you're a shitty dev. That doesn't necessarily mean that NPM is wrong for being so open in allowing others to publish their packages, or that smaller / more worthless packages shouldn't be allowed to publish.

That said, I would really like to hear a response to this post, as I have limited experience with different package management systems.

The huge difference is that PHP package manager support namespaces and dependencies ARE FLAT. You cannot import 2 versions of the same package under the same namespace. Which

1/ forces package authors to write stable libraries

2/ forces dependencies to narrow the versions of their dependencies

3/ prevents name squatting to some extent. You cannot have a package named "forms" and then sell the name for real money, like seen on NPM. your package needs to be "namespace"/"name". NPM made a huge mistake with its gems like global namespace and it explains half the problems it is having today.

For a post that is claiming to not be elitist, it reads pretty elitist.

Can you expand on how to identify the class of programmers you're referring to? Are they the type that copy / paste code directly from StackOverflow? They lack a classical computer science education? They haven't worked on a large, enterprise-grade project?

From what I've seen, there's one division between programmers that's hard to overcome. Some see it as a tool to get certain results for a job. Some of them are bad, some of them are lazy, but most of them are good enough to get to their objective.

Others see programming more as an art. They take care to make the code not only efficient but also elegant. They'll read up on new and interesting algorithms and incorporate them in novel ways. They might often be behind deadlines, but when they are, they create things like GNU Hurd that inspire a lot of interest and lead to interesting results, maybe even teach people a few things. Their code is interesting to read. They tend to write the libraries that the first group uses.

Both groups contribute a lot, but it's not easy to get them to understand that about each other.

I think the languages themselves give rise to such code because of the lack of consistency and all the weird quirks everywhere.

When you can't even reason about the truthiness of a variable because the language coerces everything, of course things end up screwy.

PHP has had an extension module repository since 1999

Comparing NPM to PECL/PEAR doesn't make much sense when talking about PHP developers. With PECL, the overhead of building a module in C is waay too high to make it viable for micro packages. And PEAR didn't just accept any random stuff, they were shooting for the one-solution-fits-all libraries and not tons of user-defined micro libraries like ecosystems like NPM encourage.

Compare NPM to Composer/Packagist and you get a better comparision. I've personally seen only very few micro packages on Packagist, thankfully this never seemed to gain traction in the PHP world.

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