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"Jobs aren't necessary anymore."

What a statement. It rings of naivete. How would you pay for your living expenses? Are you living with someone who pays your living expenses? Do they work? Or are you on social welfare?

Who maintains the automation? Who designs these systems? Until robots and AI can do everything (which is a long way away), there's always going to be something that no one wants to do. Getting paid is an incentive to do it. We are also a long way from becoming a non growth focused economy. Until such a time as strong AI and a non growth focused economy become a reality (if ever), jobs are necessary, and always will be.

People also like to be useful, to feel like they matter, or be part of something greater than themselves. Jobs are one avenue for this fulfilment. Someone who is intentionally unemployed is not being useful. If you are on welfare, or your supported by family, then you are a burden. Others are required to work, but you choose not to at their expense. Why are you entitled to do what you want, when others can't? That is seen as unfair, so you cop resentment.

"I always sense there is this weird belief that "people must work and belong to something so that society can function"."

I suspect you believe this to justify your lack of motivation for employment. There is a big epidemic of this type of attitude in Japan (neet's) [1], where young people refuse to work and just live off their families income. It might be different if you had decided to quit your job and make your dream game. You were never employed and don't want to be.

I think we are in a weird point in western society, where we are generally more well off than any other time. The basic costs of living are relatively low for a single person, particularly if they live with their parents. A lot of the basic things have become much easier than before. So, its much easier to be unemployed (particularly in welfare based societies), and people will find all sorts of ways to justify their apparent lack of motivation.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NEET

I live in france, and am on welfare. Unemployment has been at 10% for a long time now.

What I mean is that we should not encourage people to do any job, and let them pursue things they like instead. So many people live on minimum wage, and don't go back to school.

I think it's a great thing to live with your parents. And if there are a lot of NEETs in japan, maybe there are reasons behind it which go beyond "naivete". Calling this an epidemic without trying to understand the reasons behind it is easy.

> Jobs are one avenue for this fulfillment.

What about working at fast food, mopping floors, bullshit jobs, etc? Fulfillment happens when you are educated enough to work in a domain you can be fulfilled with. Nobody gets a raise in those jobs.

> Others are required to work, but you choose not to at their expense.

Nobody is required to work, they decided to, it's consented, not slavery, and get both the advantages and the downsides. That's exactly what I'm talking about here. People can do what they want, yet if they work, most of the time it will be minimum wage, because everyone wants to work, so of course employers will always drive wages down. So of course it makes sense to stay unemployed.

> and people will find all sorts of ways to justify their apparent lack of motivation.

Why should people have any motivation? Is it some kind of a moral duty? Don't you read that people can be angry, desperate and resentful about their economic situation?

> then you are a burden

That's the worse thing you can call an unemployed person. Not only am I not interacting with anybody, but now I should feel guilty for my situation? How do you want me to improve my situation if you accuse me? I don't really like to continue this kind of conversation, because it only deal with social constructs, which aren't really good standards.

If you are unemployed because you are genuinely unable to find work, then that's an entirely different matter (and I apologise, and wish you all the best for finding work). I got the impression that you were unemployed by choice, especially given your various statements (and the rest of this post is partially prefaced on that assumption). Therein lies the problem. While your personal situation may work for you, it will not work for a vast majority of people. So my response was in regard to the various broad unqualified statements you made. I personally don't have anything against your choice. I can understand where you are coming from. However, your statements seem to reveal a certain level of naivete.

There are many people that must work in order to pay their families living expenses as they are married and have children. Even with welfare they might not have enough money to live above the poverty line. So they must work. While they could choose not to work, its hardly much of a choice.

I'm guessing your living with your parents (based on your statements). What if your parents decided to stop working? While in your circumstance they might have saved up enough money to live comfortably for many years, they had to work to get it in the first place. There are many people that cannot live with their parents for various reasons.

> Jobs are one avenue for this fulfillment.

I didn't say jobs are the only avenue for fulfilment, merely one avenue to it. People in undesirable jobs generally aren't there by choice. This breaks down your assertion that jobs aren't necessary.

> I think it's a great thing to live with your parents. And if there are a lot of NEETs in japan, maybe there are reasons behind it which go beyond "naivete". Calling this an epidemic without trying to understand the reasons behind it is easy.

Its an epidemic regardless of the reason behind it. I'm fully aware of the tough working conditions many face there, and that it will drive some to avoid employment due to the unbearable pressure. I suspect there are many that are simply just unmotivated to work, and have the means to do so.

>> and people will find all sorts of ways to justify their apparent lack of motivation.

> Why should people have any motivation? Is it some kind of a moral duty? Don't you read that people can be angry, desperate and resentful about their economic situation?

This is where I see the issue. You have formed opinions which justify your lack of motivation and project it onto others. Your situation might work for you, but it does not work for everybody. Yet you do not understand this:

"I always sense there is this weird belief that "people must work and belong to something so that society can function". I can't really express it. What bothers me is that somehow, even after the new deal and social programs, not having a salary or income is seen as some sort of a bad thing, and often, it will be a bad thing for your mental health (isolation, lack of personal goals)."

These social programs only function because others work. Their taxes pay for your expenses. These welfare systems are designed for people who are unable to find work, despite trying to find it. While there are some places trialling basic income, until most of the western world moves to it (unlikely any time soon), you are a burden to society. Now maybe in a few years, you will finish making your game (i hope it goes well), and it will sell well, justifying your unemployment. Until then many people will not understand your choice, and even dislike you for it. As I said previously, it would be a different matter if you quit your job to make your dream game. People can see you have a goal and are motivated - that you don't intend to remain a burden.

>> then you are a burden

> That's the worse thing you can call an unemployed person. Not only am I not interacting with anybody, but now I should feel guilty for my situation? How do you want me to improve my situation if you accuse me? I don't really like to continue this kind of conversation, because it only deal with social constructs, which aren't really good standards.

If you are seeking work and unable to find it, then I agree, its not a good thing to say to an unemployed person. However, I'm assuming you are unemployed by choice. If you are isolated, you need to work on a social life. It is your choice to be isolated. If you are actively trying to seek employment, then you should absolutely not feel guilty.

> and have the means to do so.

So what? Work is consented, not forced. If nobody wants to pay them better, they won't work. If they have the means to work, but don't want to work, what's the point of calling this a lack of motivation? It's basic supply and demand at work. Maybe society has to find a better way to employ those people. I think unemployment is sustainable. If you decide to work, you have more money, but an unemployed person will still have enough to live.

> Their taxes pay for your expenses.

Money is just an indicator, but it doesn't explain structural phenomenons. If you make abstraction of money, work is overrated. Automation removes a lot of necessary work. Haven't you seen how less people are need to grow food? Haven't you seen how many workers machines replace?

I'm now in a place of "discouraged unemployment". Meaning I had many interviews and did not get hired. The more unemployment you have, the more candidates will get discouraged to find a job. That's my situation currently. I think labor and the socioeconomic model need to change. You can't tell people to fit in a mold they don't like. Will a bank loan me money to work on my game ?

Other details you might not know: France is currently in a roar because the left government want to pass a law which is more liberal towards labor. France is pretty conservative in term of economic policy (despite the fact that welfare is generous). The fact is that in france, you literally CANNOT fire someone if you want to, or it's VERY difficult to do so. That might be the main reason people like me are in long term unemployment, and are refusing to make new concessions. I already gave my resume to the city company who deals with trash, and I got no answer. So in short, don't pretend you can advice everybody to work in fast food. That will only get votes for candidates like Sanders.

You feel safe (as in comfortable?) in whose home? Some people find it unacceptable to live with their parents/siblings/benefactors indefinitely.

I live in france, which has had 10% unemployment for a long time now.

And this is why Americans have such an issue with socialism, it's the exact ethos that makes people want to reduce / remove the welfare state. An able-bodied 30 year old, who has never had a job, lives off the state, and feels justified in this situation.

Serious question. How do you eat? How do you pay for electricity?