The Pyra Linux Handheld Computer Has Now a Working Prototype | Hacker News Reader

The Pyra Linux Handheld Computer Has Now a Working Prototype

pandoralive.info

130 pointsekianjo81 comments

Right now a Jolla phone (with Sailfish OS and Android compatibility) is a readily available handheld native Linux computer. It even comes with a terminal application! Since it runs a variant of openSUSE, there's a whole lot of other software that'll run without problems - emacs, midnight commander, wget, etc.

Add a bluetooth keyboard - one day, perhaps even a TextBlade (https://waytools.com/) - and this comprises a serious computing and communications tool.

It is too bad the TOHKBD[1] is sold out. It would be perfect for this.

[1] https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/2028347278/tohkbd-the-o...

> It even comes with a terminal application!

Linux without a terminal wouldn't be Linux

> Linux without a terminal wouldn't be Linux

Linux without a terminal wouldn't be GNU/Linux.

isn't that implied nowadays?

Not when you have Android/Linux

> Linux without a terminal wouldn't be GNU/Linux.

Linux without a terminal wouldn't be Python Foundation/Perl Foundation/SQLite/Xorg/OpenBSD Foundation/RedHat/GNU/Linux. GNU tools are only a few of many components of a Linux kernel-based operating system that people use every day. There are a myriad of entities that produce code that makes up a modern Linux system, not to mention the many Linux systems out there that don't use a GNU userland. Insisting on GNU/Linux is just petty and silly.

> Insisting on GNU/Linux is just petty and silly.

Wasn't it the point to recognize that without GNU there would have been no Linux in the first place?

Linus would have written a kernel with or without GNU. There were other Free userlands available at that time, like that for Amoeba, as well as Free compilers. So saying there'd be no Linux without GNU is a dubious statement at best.

Do you think that without the GNU toolchain Linux as a combination of GNU and the Linux kernel would have reached the point where it is now ? ANd there's also the valid point of the kernel being licensed as GPL2, which also helped for its adoption - and a direct influence of RMS on the young Torvalds.

To be honest, one of the big reasons Linux is successful is it hit in a very narrow window during the USL v. BSD lawsuit where using a BSD distribution was questionable. So it's possble it wouldn't have, and other kernels, like BSD, or Minix, or any of the other kernels which had heavy development before the kernel research winter that we're still trudging through, would have seen the uptake instead. Linux being under an open source license was hardly an interesting thing back then -- Mach, the BSDs, etc were all under various Free licenses. So it could have, it could have not. Linux's success is as much luck as anything else.

No, the point was to show that there are lots of Linux systems without a terminal, but not GNU/Linux systems.

Knowingly or not, you've stepped into a long running linux v. gnu/linux debate

well, the bluetooth keyboard kinda defeats the purpose of having a handheld in the first place.

As an owner of Psion's 5mx and Revo (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psion_Series_5 and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psion_Revo), I've experienced the absolute minimum in a touch-typing keyboard. These machines offered, to me, the very best form-factor for a small computer (the clamshell design was ingenious). Sadly, nothing like these is currently available.

Conversely, a smartphone with bluetooth offers the flexibility of a touch-enabled computer with optional keyboard - one that's suitable for actual real typing!

So instead of an all-in-one solution, perhaps there's a case to be made for modular components too?

> Right now a Jolla phone (with Sailfish OS and Android compatibility) is a readily available handheld native Linux computer.

The point of the Pyra is not just to provide a GNU/Linux distro, it's also to provide physical controls and not just a touch interface. If you focus only on the OS you are missing half of the point of the device.

Even though Sailfish OS is quite nice and Linuxy, the original Jolla phone was published on 2013 and even then its hardware wasn't that good (especially the display), so until there's some modern hardware actually running Sailfish and the price is ~400 €, there's no point of talking about any Jolla/Sailfish phones :(

I'm very late to the smartphone party, but I've read that although the Jolla hardware is weak by today's standards, the OS makes up for it by being light and sleek, even outpacing a modern Android device.

My phone cost <€200, with FedEx delivery included.

Zaurus [1] handhelds of the SL-C3(0|1|2)00 models occasionally come up on eBay and support OpenBSD [2]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharp_Zaurus

[2] http://www.openbsd.org/zaurus.html

Ha! The linux pda, I have one of those in a box somewhere. When I got it, I was working a mindless corporate job, and planned to use it do some development during my plentiful free time (at work). That never worked out, needless to say. The most dev I did o it was a j2me text editor that read and stored files to the device. Seems like I installed openzaurus on it back then.

Feel free to contact me if you're interested in selling it :D (details are in profile)

Came across this yesterday which is also a tiny laptop/gamepad except it'll probably come out sooner and it's cheaper, faster, intel atom, and Windows 10. The Pyra has some advantages over it but it's more expensive, older hardware, and probably over a year away still.

http://obscurehandhelds.com/2016/02/gpd-are-back-with-someth...

That one does is not mass produced either right? I guess I am the only one who finds Ratpoison on Linux far better than Windows any day which is what I use on my Openpandora and it does allow me to be productive.

It's a new device expected to launch in October, from a company that makes handheld consoles - http://www.gpd.hk.

They launched this well-received (albeit in the sense that all of this is very niche) clamshell Android device last year:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TV80_oiacgs

Thanks for that. My Google chops must be bad or maybe theirs are as I search for clamshell devices regurlarly (I cannot be the only fan right?) and never find anything new...

That blog I linked earlier - Obscure Handhelds - is the best site I've found to keep up with new devices and crowdfunding projects.

Windows only though.

You can install whatever OS you want on it unless they locked the device down.

Well you know driver support can be spotty for Linux if the manufacturer does not suport it officially.

Dual booting Atom tablets with Android + Windows have been available since Windows 8.0 and people have already installed Ubuntu on those devices - it might already be supported, along with Android as a nice bonus!

I'm obviously not talking about Atom itself, but everything around it. Wifi, BT, whatever they are using for the nubs...

There are still recent computers such as the HP Stream 11 for which Linux support is still lacking, even though its hardware is fairly standard.

That's why official Linux support is critical.

It is a windows 10 computer, it comes with secure boot and UEFI.

I'm having trouble imagining typing on that keyboard at speed. The Pyra seems slightly better in that regard, though still a little too wide for two-thumb typing.

Past a certain width, your thumbs can't reach from the edges to the center. In the case of both of these systems, reaching much past the thumbsticks seems awkward; for instance, typing either 'h' or 'j' on the GPD, or 'g' on the Pyra.

Exactly. The keyboard has been a hot topic of discussion for the Pyra because it's that one thing that Pandora users care about. GPD has put a keyboard on their device "because you need it for Windows" but it really looks like an afterthought when you look at how bad their design is. They still have time to improve on it, but the render's version is just awful.

If you had to type on either device in a serious capacity you'd be handicapped until you plugged in a keyboard and mouse.

Do not expect to be typing fast on the pyra, you will be able to type alright just not as fast.

I could type surprisingly fast on my n900's hardware keyboard, without looking at the keyboard. I don't think moderate-speed two-thumb touch-typing is too much to ask from a mobile device.

I'd be interested to see how well Linux runs on this.

I think the Realtek ALC5645 is still work in progress, for example.

> The Pyra has some advantages over it but it's more expensive, older hardware, and probably over a year away still.

If you think GPD is going to release first... they are only showing renders so far on their indiegogo campaign. Pyra is already at the stage of a working prototype and had a first manufacturing pilot run in December. They are way more ahead.

I think that is a very clever form for this device. I don't want to detract from Bunnie's laptop because that is such an amazing device from the story of it its inception to the real world implementation, but I think this is likely a better form factor.

I can imagine happily using this one.

I'm eagerly awaiting for the Pyra to get ready.

It's not perfect, it's far from free hardware, and it's not a very good form factor for a phone replacement. But I rarely take any calls, so it's good enough for me.

And the ability to install whatever OS I want trumps everything else. I'm tired of phones where updates depend on capricious manufacturers. I want a real Linux and not a bunch of apps. I can't wait to see a tiling window manager running on that thing.

> And the ability to install whatever OS I want trumps everything else.

Agree, along with the ability of actually developing and compiling, and running your software directly on the same device. There's just nothing else out there in this kind of form factor.

I'm still hoping Jolla and/or Nokia bring back a N900-like device.

http://neo900.org ?

It's cool, but maybe too expensive and underpowered?

Pyra is too. €290 vs €480 vs ... substantially-comparable devices for like $100 on Amazon today.

Well, Freedom does not come for cheap. And most 100 USD devices you refer to are non-upgradable or have no long term support.

> It's cool, but maybe too expensive and underpowered?

I feel like that would come with the territory of a niche, small-batch device. They wouldn't be large enough to benefit from economies of scale, and they're not bringing in enough money to employ teams of engineers to optimize and refresh the hardware regularly.

That's the issue with any device like this with small production runs - you can't get the same bulk discounts on components for a few hundred devices as you can when making, say, 10,000. Unfortunately, larger runs require larger investments, and most people who are interested in these projects do not have the resources to back such a big project.

What was so good about the N900? (serious question: I have often read in the internet that people loved the N900 very much and about the very political reasons why it was abandonded, but hardly anything about the reasons why N900's fanboys found it so great).

Linux, keyboard.

Also... True multitasking, tons of storage (32GB + MicroSD), accurate stylus input. But like sonnyp suggested, mostly that it was a full Debian-based Linux experience with a decent keyboard.

It wasn't perfect (I seem to remember the battery life wasn't great), but it was a great device, more like a Swiss army knife than a phone. Wish Nokia had done a full release of the N950 (the N9 with a hardware keyboard, only released to developers, with a weaker screen than the N9) as that was shaping up to be even better than the N900.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nokia_N950

I dont mean to be dense, but are you expecting to use this a smart phone replacement? A mobile workstation - laptop replacement?

plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose

http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/PC110 http://www.tankraider.com/DOSPALMTOP/ibmpc110.html

Somewhere along the way it slipped from an IBM product to a limited series of a device born out of a community to fulfill their own needs. To me those are two very different things.

I am planning to buy a similar setup, just a tablet with a keyboard running Windows 10, I wonder how expensive this laptop in a box would be.

Quite expensive but may be worth it, I am looking at this one: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Teclast-Windows-Andriod-Tablet-Prote...

I thought TI stopped OMAP production. Where are the SOCs coming from? The back of an old warehouse?

OMAP5 are still being produced for the automotive industry.

I've come across several open handheld projects. Does anyone know which are available, practical, and supported (at least by active user communities)?

* Padora and Pyra, both by Pandora: https://pyra-handheld.com/

* Jolla phones, running Sailfish OS: http://jolla.com/

* IndiePhone by Aral Balkan; I think this one might be defunct: http://indiephone.eu/ / http://indietech.org/

* GSMK CryptoPhone: http://www.cryptophone.de/

* Revolution by GeekskPhone (which has some connection to PGP?): http://www.geeksphone.com/

* GTA01 and GTA02 by OpenMoko; obsolete? http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GTA01 / http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GTA02

* GTA04 FOSS by OpenPhoenux; successor or otherwise related to OpenMoko?: http://projects.goldelico.com/p/gta04-main/

* Neo900 by (OpenPhoenux?); "aims to provide a Fremantle (Maemo 5) compatible successor to the N900: http://neo900.org/

* Fairphone; focuses on 'fair trade' supply chain: https://www.fairphone.com/

* Camelephon: Android stripped down for security?: http://chamelephon.com/

I don't know for the other but the pandora has a fairly active community, look at the wiki and software repository:

http://www.pandorawiki.org/

http://repo.openpandora.org/ (community project)

Also forum: https://pyra-handheld.com/boards/categories/pandora.198/

-edit-

from wikipedia:

Where source code is available, instead of emulation source ports were created for the Pandora; notable examples are Jagged Alliance 2 and Homeworld.

The Pandora community is also notable for the development of tools required to achieve several successful static recompilations of complex binary software to the Pandora platform. For instance, in 2014 a ARM architecture version of the 1998 video game StarCraft was generated by static recompilation from the original x86 version. In 2015, a similarly port of Diablo II followed.

The only devices on that list for which I could find credible order pages are the Jolla and FairPhone 2, which seem to have limited distribution and carrier compatibility outside Europe. Pandora is definitely released and has a solid community, but is seemingly not shipping anymore, probably because that would tie up money earmarked for Pyra production. Pyra is quasi-available in a prototype/developer/fundraising version; production version probably to ship later this year. The GTA04 and Neo900 are board-only products (i.e. you need an OpenMoko or N900 to install them into) and don't seem to actually be shipping right now anyway.

The pandora was supposed to not be available once the produced units were sold. If you really want one, it won't be long before some of the people buying pyras sell their pandoras.

There's also this: http://getchip.com/pages/pocketchip

(I'm not affiliated iwth the product)

Hardly equivalent to the Pyra.

Looks rather interesting, but I am not sure of the benefits that it has over the pandora. As a side note, I find it amusing that they used GIMP for the heat testing.

http://pandoralive.info/?page_id=2828 states that Display: the LCD is still in discussion currently. [...] but it was found to only work properly in portrait mode.

It feels a bit strange that a display could only work in portrait mode, so perhaps you can elaborate it a bit more?

Edit: because a half HD device feels a bit dated.

They use now a rotator chip to turn it into a landscape mode lcd.

I used to own an HP Jornada 728, and run NetBSD or JLime Linux off a compact flash card.

It was an amazing device, it's very sad nothing of the kind has been produces.

Folks at jlime.org (Kristoffer, IIRC?) were designing some custom FlashRom boards in order to have better hardware control and not need windows ce to boot linux. I haven't checked in years, who knows if they got anything to actually work...

I'm very interested in using this for emulating all of the now "old" gaming consoles. Stuff like SNES, NES, PS1, gamecube.

The controls are there and the hardware should be good enough.

i had an open pandora, and loved it. can't wait for the pyra.

Could you provide some more information on how you used it and on what you liked and didn't like?

Mostly entertaining myself: used for retro emulation gaming, web surfing, remote admin over ssh, music (10h of battery), watching videos, tinkering with an exotic platform.

Being asked for input about what features it should have beforehand was very nice. 10 hours of battery is something I really enjoyed while on-the-go. Having a keyboard is convenient and a major upgrade from my previous handheld (gp2x), along with the ability for homebrew apps. The software repository is great. SDXC support, 2 slots.

It is a little too thick to my taste, the OS is not designed for a small touchscreen and feels awkward at times, I had an issue with the analog sticks sensitivity on the desktop (pyra has improved sticks).

Keep in mind that the pandora was not intended to be a consumer product but a limited run by a community member for a community of handheld enthusiasts of a device made to address perceived flaws in the GP32 and GP2X handhelds. The objective was to grow from a handheld gaming console to a fully capable pocket computer running on opensource.

Mainly, I use it as a tiny PC that I carry with me on the go. I use Linux at home, so I essentially have the same software on the Pandora as on my desktop. I can comfortably browse non-mobile websites, email, edit documents with LibreOffice, SSH, remote into work (my workplace uses a Java applet for remote access so can't do it with Android). I can also set a virtual resolution in X11 so that the screen acts as a panning viewport so that more things fit. And of course I can play games on it (although I'm not much of a gaming enthusiast.)

Like:

- Battery life: 10 hours is actual screen on, wifi on time I get

- Size: fits comfortably in my pocket

- Physical keyboard: much easier to enter symbols, doesn't cover the screen

- Accurate "mouse" input (via nub or stylus)

Dislike:

- Keyboard is way too stiff

- Slow nowadays, especially on heavy websites

The keyboard for me is less userfriendly then an onscreen keyboard, so I might as well use a regular android phone and chroot into a rootfs (linux deploy) or use it with a handheld or regular bluetooth keyboard. I would be interested in a wifi/bluetooth linux device with AA or AAA batteries and an e-ink display, optimized for long battery life. The android based Onyx Boox has everything except for the AA batteries.

> The keyboard is less userfriendly then an onscreen keyboard ...

I can see how 'swype'-like features would help the onscreen keyboard, but apart from that I have fond memories of typing on the physical keyboards of old dumb-phones with pretty good speed.

This seems like a great device, and although it may be impractical in some ways, it's got a very Hitchhiker's Guide vibe to it.

I would love to buy it if it's reasonably priced with a great battery life.

AFAIK battery life for the Pyra is expected to be around 10 hours, which is good for a handheld games console (for comparison, the new 3DS XL has about 3.5 to 7 hours battery life).

As for the price, it'd depend on what you meant by reasonable, but isn't going to be an impulse purchase for most. You may wish to consider the Pandora, which is the predecessor of the Pyra, you might get lucky with finding one for a reasonable price on eBay.

Doubt it : http://www.ebay.com/itm/OPEN-PANDORA-1002-1Ghz-Second-Editio...

As I said "might get lucky", especially after the Pyra is released and more existing Pandora owners sell up to get the Pyra.

> The keyboard is less userfriendly then an onscreen keyboard

Really? Like, you prefer your fingers to run over glass than something you can actually press ?

I would have said the exact opposite, because I absolute hate using Smartphones and tablets to type text.

I do understand the tactile feedback is nice. A long time ago I got an HTC pocketpc with slide-out keyboard for the same reasons, but I felt the clicking also slowed me down. For the small screen on that particular device the tedious stylus and finger entry was slower, so the keyboard was a plus. But with bigger mobile screens nowadays finger or stylus entry is less of an issue (especially with smart entry hacks). For keyboard entry for typing longer e-mails or ssh access I now only use an external keyboard where I can use 10 fingers instead of 2 thumbs - for the same reason I prefer a frogpad to a twiddler for one-handed entry.

Writing anything beyond SMS-length on a touch device, I end up popping the keyboard up and down repeatedly to give what I'm writing a useful amount of screen space. With swipe entry, my raw input speeds of English are much better than with some kind of thumbpad, but watching the keyboard still means ignoring what I'm typing and going back to fix typos.

I like how touchscreen swipe input seems to flow. I like how a physical keypad can be used without necessarily looking at it, and how it doesn't reduce the view of what I'm writing. I haven't used a stylus interface that I've particularly liked because it seems like the worst of both worlds.

All those together are why I also do my best to avoid writing anything sizable on a mobile device.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com