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Comment by jkyle | Hacker News Reader

Honest question. Why not get a credit card? They don't cost anything and would open up a new market for you.

Because they are usually aren't free in Europe. And it doesn't feel like a new market opening, it usually is just that single shop once every year.

And additional ancedata because I don't know whether that's a US <> Europe thing: Personally, the idea of going into dept for private consumption is completely foreign to me and most people I know, so the idea of a credit card is very unappealing.

Wire transfers OTOH are simple, practically free and fast enough (<1 day inside the country, ~1 day inside of Europe).

> Personally, the idea of going into dept for private consumption is completely foreign to me and most people I know, so the idea of a credit card is very unappealing.

Though I know many don't follow this rule, I never purchase anything on a credit card I don't have cash for. It's purely for the convenience factor (and the 1-3% discount on all purchases).

I wouldn't pay for one though.

Here in the UK, one advantage to using a credit card (even if you don't need credit) or a charge card is that the Consumer Credit Act 1974 gives you a whole bunch of extra consumer protections that you wouldn't get if you paid cash or debit card.

The main reason I got a credit card initially was because when I visited the US, nobody understood what a Maestro card was.

In the UK, credit cards (and bank accounts) are free to open.

In the Netherlands, both bank accounts and credit cards require a monthly fee (€5 / quarter for a bank account, €17,50 / year for a credit card).

I have accounts in both countries and I rarely need to fall back on my VISA card. Indeed, online payments here use an NL specific payment system called iDEAL, which makes use of your bank's online banking - it's far faster than entering 16 digit CC numbers and can integrate with your bank's app on mobile.

Most, if not all credit cards in Sweden cost at least an annual fee of 225 SEK.

There are a few (very few) that does not have an annual fee though.

You don't pay annual fees for your credit cards?

I haven't seen an annual fee on a credit card in the US for years. Also, every debit card I've had for the past 20 years acts as if it were a credit card. So any place that takes a credit card can get paid directly from my bank account without dealing with real "credit" at all.

There are a ton of cards that have fees, mostly American Express, but Chase and others too. The fees usually unlock certain benefits, eg: Amex Blue Everday will pay 3% cash back at grocery stores, or for $75/yr, they will pay 6% cash back. The Amex Gold Premier is $190/yr but offer $100/yr back in baggage fees and constantly run $25-100 off deals at Enterprise, Newegg, general travel expenses.

So whether these cards are worth it depends a lot on how you use your card, but, they can pay for themselves very easily.

"Also, every debit card I've had for the past 20 years acts as if it were a credit card."

Except that debit cards in the U.S. are not covered by the same consumer protection laws as credit cards[1], so it's harder to do stuff like disputing charges. It's also possible for an erroneous charge on a debit card to wipe out your bank account. For that reason, I specifically ask my bank to give me a card that does not work as a debit card, only as an ATM card.

[1] E.g., the 'Fair Credit Billing Act', a federal law that protects credit card transactions, doesn't apply.

> Except that debit cards in the U.S. are not covered by the same consumer protection laws as credit cards

Neither is bitcoin, so pretty sure that's irrelevant for this discussion.

I meant that it acts as if it were a credit card from the payment processing point of view.

I address the same problem by having multiple bank accounts that have small balances and auto-depositing my monthly budget for different things into them. If any one gets compromised (and the bank is unwilling to fix it), it doesn't take out my whole bank account. Plus it provides a nice "money into envelopes" style of budgeting that's very easy to understand.

If your card only works at the ATM, then how do you buy expensive things (something that costs more than the daily ATM withdrawal limit)?

"If your card only works at the ATM, then how do you buy expensive things?"

I have credit cards for buying things.

> (something that costs more than the daily ATM withdrawal limit)

How often do you go over 4000€ and pay for it at point of sale?

Usually, you sign a contract, and wire the money to VW or wherever you bought your car, or you wire it to the bank where you bought the shares.

US cards don't seem to have fees except "premium" ones that toss in a concierge service. Banks seem willing to give them to anyone that opens an account. Only fees I've known people to pay were for Amex ($99 to $5000 a year.)

Plus US banks give out VISA debit cards, making it a non-issue (well, security/chargebacks might be). Dunno about EU, but in Canada, this doesn't seem easy. I opened a business account, then asked for a VISA debit card and both the service person and manager appeared to be confused as to what that'd be. They insisted I could pay things using Interac (Canadian card network), with no concept this wouldn't work for online use. They kept thinking I wanted a credit card. Bizarre.

Maybe there's some huge cost to making MasterCard or VISA connected debit cards?

In the U.S., it's easy to get a credit card that has no fees. (There are some cards, like the ones associated with airline frequent flyer points, that still have annual fees.)

In fact, some credit cards will pay you a rebate on your purchases. One card I have gives me back 1% of everything I spend (the credit card company charges the merchant 2-3%, so they still come out ahead). Since I pay off my balance every month and thus pay no interest, using my credit card actually saves me money over paying in cash.

"easy" in the sense that you need an adequate FICO score. (as your credit habits obviously have rewarded you with, kudos)

> You don't pay annual fees for your credit cards?

Nope. Actually, they pay me at a rate of 1-5% cash back on all purchases made on the card.

Pay 60€ a year for the amazon prime credit card, which amazon already subsidizes?

Or pay more like 200€ a year for one with better protections for your money, which I’d get for free with EC?

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