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Now I know that the nags came with the security patch of IE, which means that I can't even avoid it if I want to have security updates installed. Horrible. How is then that the nag doesn't happen for business users if it's a part of the security patch?

I submitted another related article (and posted a summary) with more emphasis on the specifics, including when this nag does and doesn't appear to be showing up:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11261438

While I'm here, I'll add my voice to the chorus of people who think they're crazy to include not just non-security but clearly not-even-important functionality in a bundled security update. That was a line they should never have crossed, and it's going to cost them much of whatever trust they had left after the earlier GWX unpleasantness and the questionable practices of Windows 10 itself.

Edit: In fact, this Business Insider article seems to be a thin wrapper for the more detailed Infoworld one I submitted before, which is here:

http://www.infoworld.com/article/3042155/microsoft-windows/w...

Domain attachment as the nag/don't nag flag in fantastically stupid. In my previous company we had very good reason to have more Windows computers not on domain (and I'm not going to elaborate them, please don't ask, but domain is just one specific usage pattern).

Domain attachment as the nag/don't nag flag in fantastically stupid.

Maybe. If your goal is to nag as many home users and small business customers as possible, while avoiding irritating your larger business customers as much as possible, it's probably a pretty good heuristic.

Win 10 gives me an onslaught of driver blue screens. I don't have time to investigate these, so I'm happy to stay on 8.1 for now. It's hard to not be annoyed in being asked to upgrade into something I already know does not work.

Win10 has been quite stable in VirtualBox on my MacBook. Maybe they should give up on hardware :)

On my surface pro I got several blue screens, something I rarely got with Windows 7. I also got some blue screens on a new supermicro server running windows 10, which I find even less amusing.

Why did you install Windows 7 on a Surface Pro (Touch Device) in the first place? Does the Pen etc even work? Afaik Surface Pro came with at least Windows 8 pre-installed.

I didn't. I meant having blue screens on devices with Windows 7. I only ever got blue screen on windows 7 machines when debugging multi-threaded apps with Visual Studio. On Windows 10 it is way to frequent even when not doing anything specific.

Windows 10 adds some improvements over windows 7, like hyper-v and http2. But in my experience it is nowhere as stable.

My girlfriend upgraded and ended up with her touchpad driver dead in the water. Cue me rolling back by enabling num pad arrow keys as a cursor. I wonder how many people simply didn't know it was an option and had their laptop bricked by microsoft for all intents and purposes..

Do what many reasonable folks did - turn off windows updates and install Linux Mint alongside for everything that can be done outside Windows. Microsoft makes it not worth it to care anymore...

It's appalling to see how Microsoft is shooting itself in the foot...

That's a terrible advice IMO. You can do the other things of course, but don't turn your windows updates off. It's still better to get a nag screen than to get your machine owned by random malware, just because you didn't apply known/available security patches.

That's a terrible advice IMO.

Too bad. This is what happens when the OS vendor becomes the threat. Trust is important, and the Windows Update team has betrayed mine.

(And spare me the tiresome "B...b...but they didn't do anything you didn't agree to in the EULA!" routine.)

I don't care about the eula or your trust for the team. This is the only source which will provide you security updates. If you don't follow them, you are likely to simply get owned. For example skipping March updates opens you to 9 remotely exploitable issues (some of them are cumulative, so in reality it's many more). Unless you're going to go around personally restoring people's systems after they're affected, don't recommend that they turn off windows updates.

The last time I accidentally infected myself, the name of the exploit was Happy99.exe. So I'm not especially worried for my own sake. But you're right about what's likely to happen in many other cases. Microsoft should have thought of this scenario when they decided to abuse their update service for marketing purposes. We're all at greater risk because of their actions.

People with your point of view should also consider the ramifications when you (implicitly or otherwise) condone Microsoft's behavior in threads like this.

Nobody is condoning Microsoft's behaviour by saying you should apply the security fixes. If anything, you are condoning their behaviour by continuing to use their products. The rest of the Internet shouldn't have to deal with malware-ridden devices just because their owners choose to use an OS but then refuse to install its security fixes.

If anything, you are condoning their behaviour by continuing to use their products. The rest of the Internet shouldn't have to deal with malware-ridden devices just because their owners choose to use an OS but then refuse to install its security fixes.

You're definitely not wrong about any of that, unfortunately. This, on the other hand...

Nobody is condoning Microsoft's behaviour by saying you should apply the security fixes.

.... I'm not buying. The fact is that Windows Update is no longer any more trustworthy than SourceForge or any other infamous source of unsolicited bundled adware. Another, related fact is that I can't be bothered to do the necessary research to tell what is a genuine security fix versus yet another "mistake" that results in Windows 10 ads (if not the OS itself) appearing on my PC the next morning.

For some reason I don't understand, Nadella is getting away with doing things with Windows that would have gotten Gates or Ballmer crucified. Every knowledgeable user who doesn't condemn them vociferously for attempting to use an important security update service to force-feed a major OS upgrade is part of this particular problem.

For literally decades, the best practice has been, "Never upgrade an existing Windows installation. Always do a clean install." There were many very good reasons for this advice to be given to nontechnical users. Now, all of a sudden, this advice is apparently obsolete because... because it's inconvenient for Microsoft's marketing efforts?!

Sorry, no. Not buying it. Microsoft is no longer allowed to exploit my machine at will, under the guise of security or any other motivation. Believe me, if I could afford to ditch them entirely without cutting my own throat, I would. That part is my responsibility.

"remotely exploitable" usually means "visit a suspicious website in IE with all the default settings, including JavaScript, enabled".

don't recommend that they turn off windows updates.

...unless you also recommend they use a different browser (e.g. FireFox with NoScript) and don't use the default settings. IMHO the amount of bugs that remain remotely exploitable with such a configuration (or even just IE with most of the extra stuff turned off) is reduced to be essentially none --- and if one does show up, like the WMF exploit (remember that?) you'll probably be able to install a patch just for it. IE has a Trusted Sites functionality, so you can whitelist the sites that really need that stuff if you must use it, with other random sites on the Internet being allowed much less exploitable functionality.

That said, I hope someone figures out the security-relevant portion of the update and how to patch out the other crap. But then again, with what Windows is these days, the binaries are probably signed and there will be tons of other hoops to jump through to get that to work...

IE engine is still embedded in many apps as a html viewer. You may be using it even if you don't expect it. Or even if you don't actually see it.

Well, generally I would agree, however on my desktop I can't recall the last time I got any malware (probably never since I bought it). So for me the choice is:

1. low risk of catching random malware (which so far is zero)

2. 100% chance of getting microsoft nagware

So yes, actually I consciously disabled windows update, because of the two, "get windows 10" is more annoying.

This is on my gaming PC though, so in the worst case I'll simply restore it from image and re-download games from Steam. So as I said, generally I do agree ;)

I found the update for Windows 10 automatically checked in my updates today. Had I had automatic updating turned on, it would have upgraded to Windows 10 without my permission. It seems it's no longer opt-in, but opt-out.

The only option for anyone who doesn't want to upgrade is to turn automatic updating off, keep it turned off forever, and manually verify every update you receive, making certain the update to Windows 10 is unchecked every single time. Microsoft only going to become more aggressive and more deceptive about this in the future. They can no longer be trusted with their own product. Windows Update has become no better than the adware-infested installers that CNet or Sourceforge wrap applications with.

What's your plan for when Windows 8 is EOL? According to the current public plan 10 will be the only option in a few years. (or other system)

I'll probably upgrade sometime before then, I just happen to be quite comfortable with what I have right now. Before then, I plan on just blocking the upgrade. I have another Windows laptop I'm strongly considering installing Ubuntu on to use for everything except Adobe software and Visual Studio.

What's the make/model? I overcame my hatred of broadcom wireless cards thanks to some command line wizardry.

You mean in Linux? Linux has problem with the touchpad and the keyboard, not with the WiFi card. The touchpad kind-of-works but somehow interprets the movements wrong, "micro-jerky" (like if some noise were added to the reading of the coordinates) in some way that the changes of the touchpad parameters that I have found I can change don't affect.

It's Microsoft and Intel that don't support the WiFi card, and I can't find the replacement that I can put in the full-size space in the notebook. There are extenders available to support the more modern (supported) half-size cards, but these adapters don't solve the problem of too short antenna cables.

> The touchpad kind-of-works but somehow interprets the movements wrong, "micro-jerky" in some way that the changes of the touchpad parameters that I have found I can change don't affect.

You might try installing the libinput-based drivers (xserver-xorg-input-libinput), and removing the synaptics driver. libinput has far better handling for current touchpads.

Thanks. Then, if they work, I "only" have to find out how to make FN buttons working, at least these that control sound volume and brightness. And I had the impression that the CPU use was worse, or the power management worse, for the same usage patterns (when not doing anything special like compiling, just editing or browsing), fan turned on more often.

Edit: I'm reading about "libinput" that it has "palm detection" but it's certainly not my problem with the pseudo "noise." Even when I hold only and just one finger, the mouse cursor "trembles" and "shakes."

You could first check via `xev` whether the key presses actually arrive in software. For me they did, but my desktop environment didn't adjust the brightness if an `XF86MonBrightnessUp` event fired.

Same with my Chromebook, once you know the events arrive it was a simple mapping in Xubuntu.

Manual mapping shouldn't be required for most current desktop environments. GNOME and KDE certainly do, and I think Unity does as well. If your desktop environment doesn't map those keys by default, please file a bug against it.

It's great that Linux makes it possible to manually fix such things, but it's even better when they work out of the box.

> Edit: I'm reading about "libinput" that it has "palm detection" but it's certainly not my problem with the pseudo "noise." Even when I hold only and just one finger, the mouse cursor "trembles" and "shakes."

libinput also adds better noise filtering, finger position precision, and other improved algorithms. I found it quite an improvement even on my current laptop with a great touchpad, and on another laptop it made the difference between usable and unusable.

As someone else alluded to, Fn key presses can be weird - they could show up as novel key inputs, which xev would show you, or as odder things.

My main workaround for Wi-Fi issues is to get a USB Wi-Fi dongle that is supported on Linux. Worked like a charm when my regular Wi-Fi card decided to stop functioning properly on any OS I would go on (probably hardware malfunction). The one I always get is less than $20 on Amazon and is by TP Link.

In Windows 7 and Linux the built-in card "just works" and supports the "n" protocol too. The dangling dongle just to have WiFi isn't really the convenient alternative. If your WiFi card in the notebook is a half-size PCIe, you'd surely be better of replacing it.

I usually have a dongle for my wireless mouse anyway, so it doesn't bother me as much. I use the same dongle on my desktop (since it has no WiFi card). For some a WiFi dongle isn't too bad an alternative, as long as it's cost effective. $12 dongle vs $60 or whatever WiFi card.

That's a really unfortunate experience upgrade experience. My experiences after upgrading multiple machines has been flawless so far - even on an old Dell Vostro 1500 laptop.

Your better experience is not an excuse for Microsoft pushing already rejected "Get Windows 10" code every month anew to my machine where I already tried the upgrade and it doesn't work and I've rejected. They override my rejection every month!

And also not an excuse for not fixing the svchost problem:

(updates got immensely slower around the time since the "Get Windows 10 "updates started to appear)

http://www.sevenforums.com/performance-maintenance/392938-sv...

And for not allowing users to control the updates in Windows 10:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Windows10/comments/49wcua/svchostex...

I just find it interesting that over a wide range of random hardware that Windows 10 appears to have not been a problematic upgrade for me and this is speaking as a power user that has oddball software/hardware configurations.

Also, my statement wasn't meant to imply that a good upgrade experience was an excuse for Microsoft's behavior in regards to the constant "upgrade now" nagging or ignoring issues that impact its customers.

I guess your "random hardware" was still not random enough: My notebook that goes crazy after the upgrade is certainly not an "oddball" as it has

the Intel processor,

the Intel chipset,

the Intel graphics card,

the Intel WiFi card, most expensive of that times,

the maximum amount of memory for the CPU and chipset (4 GB) and

the most expensive Windows 7 version installed.

I'd even say it can't be more straightforward than that. And what's worse, the Windows 10 Upgrade program "tested" the configuration and claimed "everything will be fine." Now it nags even after I reverted to Windows 7. Windows 7 has no problems, Windows 10 has problem with interrupts handling.

And the Windows 7 "hours long" update problem is surely known to Microsoft, I've diagnosed it on my machine too, this function:

    wuaueng.dll!CUpdatesToPruneList::AddSupersedenceInfoIfNeeded

appears to still (after the 2016 March update of the Update Client (7.6.7601.19161) and KB3102810 installed) be called almost infinite number of times. I guess it's some unnecessary recursion on an O(N to a high power) loop which was tolerable for small number of existing files in the list of all updates, and now explodes. Microsoft appears to avoid fixing that code even if it's quite obvious for anybody who knows to interpret the stack.

Yes, that does seem like a pretty straightforward hardware configuration and I've certainly felt similar pains in the past. For a period of several months Windows 8/8.1 on my laptop refused to download and install updates due to some persistent error coming from Microsoft's WU infrastructure. There was page after page of people complaining about the issue on Microsoft's public forums without even an acknowledgment from Microsoft that the issue existed.

In desperation, I ended up running WSUS inside a VM and pointing my laptop at that VM in order to get updates installed. :-/

Which wifi adapter are you using? Mine wasn't "supported" but I did get it to work (5 year old laptop)

Intel 4xxx. I've spent enough energy trying, turning off the features didn't help. If the "to full size" extenders would have antenna cable extensions too I'd put something newer, but I don't know of such product.

Buisness users will not see the nag because computers joined to a domain are excluded.

Not sure about this. Windows Enterprise was never sent the nagware bits. I use Win8.0 Enterprise at home (MSDN) and it's never asked me once. I tried to manually upgrade to 10 and it refused. One PC has never been domain joined.

So it might be the fact that it's the Enterprise version of the OS, not the domain join.

I have Windows 7 Ultimate and it nags.

Indeed, Enterprise and Ultimate are different versions.