AlphaGo Can't Beat Me, Says Chinese Go Grandmaster Ke Jie
shanghaidaily.com
shanghaidaily.com
The headline makes it sound like he's being super-arrogant, but his actual words tell a very different story.
I assumed that, since this has been in the news, he's promoting himself to be next in line to take on the computer. The purpose being the publicity and earnings associated with participating in an event like this (it's not often Go makes it into the mainstream media).
I think that part is irrelevant because I think everyone knows that would be the case - that in a few months or years, the AI would exponentially improve.
And it will continue improving at about the same rate for the next few years, at least.
In the long term, meatware has no chance against it.
From what I've read, more processing power would allow the AI to calculate possible outcomes for each move further into the future but that does not mean the AI's overall success rate will go up at the same rate.
Edit: I just looked up his Weibo, and it turns out that he said only what is quoted in the headline on Weibo; that deeper analysis was, presumably, from a later interview which he didn't post on Weibo at all.
Also, I don't think it sounds super arrogant. The fact that AlphaGo beats someone beaten by Ke Jie 8 times out of 10 doesn't say enough about AlphaGo vs. Ke Jie. As Jie himself pointed out, eventually AlphaGo will be able to beat him, but claiming that it cannot do this now sounds pretty safe to me.
8:2 implies the difference between them isn't so large. (If someone only beat me 8:2, I'd expect a professional to beat them 10:0.) Do we have any particular reason to think that AlphaGo would fall within that narrow skill band?
E.g. if Google specifically challenged Lee, thinking that AG had just about passed his level.
Alternatively by looking at the games and saying "Ke beat Lee by more than AG did, so Ke will beat AG as well". But many people have pointed out that AG doesn't optimize for winning by the greatest amount, so this probably isn't very informative.
Alternatively if AG's playstyle is strong against Lee but weak against Ke. But could Ke know that? AG's only played against two high-profile opponents, if it can adapt its playstyle we won't have seen that in action.
Another way to look at it, if Ke beats Lee 8:2 then Lee-plus-four-stones probably beats Ke more than half the time. (I'm pretty confident about four stones; I suspect two or three would suffice.) Four stones is significant, but it's still a fairly narrow gap to say "I think AG falls within this skill range" until you've seen it lose a game.
Games at this level are decided by a few points. The closer two players come to optimal play, the harder it is to be very much more efficient than your opponent over the course of a game. To be so much more efficient, at this level, that you could overcome a 4 stone handicap is unthinkable.
I would very much like to see computers improve to the level that they could take on a top professional giving a 2 stone handicap. That would be a sight!
That's especially true when one of your players is a robot, which learns in a different way than humans. Yes, it's running a neural network, but a neural network still isn't a brain. Every person's brain is slightly differently organized on the neural level. On the other hand, every NN is running more or less the same structure and backpropagation algorithms. If you can find where those algorithms are strategically weak, you'll be able to beat them consistently.
But yes, I spoke about playstyles. Do you think Ke can discover exploitable weaknesses in AG, given the games AG's played?
For example a CNN does well at object recognition from photos, but does poorly at recognizing a pencil sketch of an object it hasn't previously seen a sketch of. Or recognizing a scene at night that it has only seen daytime photos of. Those tasks, humans do very well because the trained human brain combines cultural understanding, physics intuition, and visual cortex at the same time, and would be able to use this to their advantage to easily beat, say, a massively trained CNN image recognition program that lacks cultural understanding and physics intuition.
Some other more complex NN structure may be able to tackle these kind of tasks, but as long as its neural structure is rigid, it will have yet other deficiencies. The human brain is still able to structurally adapt in ways that NNs cannot, yet.
For people outside of Go community, Ke Jie is the new star of Go, currently Jie's Elo rating is #1, http://www.goratings.org/, Lee Sedol is #4. Media touted Lee Sedol as the greatest player of past decade, it was true couple years ago but Lee Sedol has been clearly in decline in recent years (as seen in the Elo rating).
2) Ke Jie is 19, at the peak age of his game. Lee Sedol is 33 and is seemingly in decline in his game, hence the 2:8 record vs. Ke Jie.
3) Ke Jie probably wanted to be challenged since he is the current world's #1 Go player. Sure there aren't much differences in terms of skill levels between top Pro 9 dan players but challenging a current world's #4 player is different from challenging a current world #1 player, isn't it?
It's a shame that the Western world doesn't know Ke Jie well(as his wikipedia page has very limited info and his award records.)[1] But these are moot points. After the 2nd defeat, it's increasingly clear that AlphaGo will defeat human player - it's a matter of time or a matter of a couple more games.
That's your wishful thinking.
As we've seen the matches with Fan Hui in the past, unfortunately and fortunately, the CNN will improve drastically game after game and making less mistakes whereas human always do at a certain level.
Another big point I want to point out is human emotion and state of the mind. With 0:2, Lee Sedol lost his confidence ("speechless" in his own words) [1] and quite possibly increasing fear of losing in a landslide 0:5. Losing confidence and fear of losing are VERY TERRIBLE things in any competitive sports.
[1] http://www.theverge.com/2016/3/10/11191184/lee-sedol-alphago...
The one to beat is Ke Jie because he is currently two times stronger than Lee Sedol.
Weaker players are more inconsistent. Someone else says Lee-plus-two stones beats Ke. I don't think me-plus-two-stones dominates someone who beats me 8:2.
So with weaker players, 8:2 is consistent with a wider range of skill gaps (measured in handicap stones). It's consistent with one player being only a little better, and it's consistent with one player being a lot better.
With two of the best players in the world, 8:2 isn't consistent with more than two stones difference between them.
So in this case, 8:2 rules out a lot of possible skill gaps, which does say a lot; in the same way that "beats me 8:2" says a lot more than "beats me 10:0".
(Alternatively we can measure skill gaps in points. Games between weak players will often be decided by tens of points. Games between strong players will be decided by a handful. 8:2 between Lee and Ke suggests their points gap is smaller than between two amateurs who get 8:2.)
Isn't that Go in a nutshell though.
Which reminds me of some wisdom from Dominic Toretto "It don't matter if you win by an inch or a mile. Winning's winning."
I was taught a computer would not beat a professional player in my life time. Now, there is maybe one player who can beat AlphaGo. I guess this won't be true for too long. When? That would be an interesting bet.
AI is definitely getting better, but it is all application specific. AI is not at the point of setting its own goals or fixing all of its errors. We still need humans for that.
Superhuman programmer with intelligence explosion capabilities… yeah, that's a whole 'nother game.
EDIT: Nevermind, just looked it up and found this was a real thing. I thought you were joking.
(I'm convinced that programmers will take the AI-automating-all-the-jobs idea more seriously once it's their own jobs that are on the line)
There are a few ways I can think of to object to this line of reasoning:
1) You could argue that programming will be a job that never gets automated away. But this seems unlikely--previous intellectual tasks (Chess, Jeopardy, Go) were thought to be "essentially human", and once they were solved by computers, got redefined as not "essentially human" (and therefore not AI). My opinion: In the same way we originally thought tool use made humans unique, then realized that other animals use tools too, we'll eventually learn that there's no fundamental uniqueness to human cognition. It'll be matter & algorithms all the way down. Of course, the algorithms could be really darn complicated. But the fact the Deepmind team won at both Go and Atari using the same approach suggests the existence of important general-purpose algorithms that are within the reach of human software engineers.
2) You could argue that programming will be automated away but in a sense that isn't meaningful (e.g. you need an expensive server farm to replace a relatively cheap human programmer). This is certainly possible. But in the same way calculators do arithmetic much faster & better than humans do, there's the possibility that automated computer programmers will program much faster & better than humans. (Honestly humans suck so hard at programming https://twitter.com/bramcohen/status/51714087842877440 that I think this one will happen.) And all the jobs that we've automated 'til now have been automated in this "meaningful" sense.
Neither of these objections hold much water IMO, which is why I take the intelligence explosion scenario described by Oxford philosopher Nick Bostrom seriously: http://www.amazon.com/Superintelligence-Dangers-Strategies-N...
I assure you we do not. We would all love to be the one to create such a program. But don't worry it isn't happening anytime soon in the form of singularity.
Just like other people in other jobs, we sometimes come up with more efficient ways of doing things than our bosses thought possible, and then we have some extra free time to do what we like.
Probably not soon. Worth noting that the Go victory happened a decade or two before it was predicted to though.
(To clarify, I was not trying to establish that any intelligence explosion is on the immediate horizon. Rather, I was trying to establish that it's a pretty sensible concept when you think about it, and has a solid chance of happening at some point.)
>Just like other people in other jobs, we sometimes come up with more efficient ways of doing things than our bosses thought possible, and then we have some extra free time to do what we like.
Yes, I'm a programmer (UC Berkeley computer science)... I know.
But don't listen to me. Listen to Stuart Russell: https://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~russell/research/future/
Well first you were saying programmers may hesitate to create an AI singularity because it may cost them their job. I said we would love to but probably won't anytime soon. Now you're saying that it's likely that it will happen some day. I'm not sure these points follow a single train of thought.
The line about programmers fearing automation only once it affects them was actually an attempt at a joke :P
The argument I'm trying to make is a simple inductive argument. Once something gets automated, it rarely to never gets un-automated. More and more things are getting automated/solved, including things people said would never be automated/solved. What's to prevent programming, including AI programming, from eventually being affected by this trend?
The argument I laid out is not meant to make a point about wait times, only feasibility. It's clear people aren't good at predicting wait times--again, Go wasn't scheduled to be won by computers for another 10+ years.
I hope for more automation in CS. It will help eliminate the boilerplate and let programmers focusnin the important tasks.
Software development in the broad sense is that, sure; not sure I'd say programming is that -- taking vague goals and applying a body of analytical and social skills to gather information and turn it into something clearly specified and unambiguously testable is the requirements gathering and specification area of system analysis, which is certainly an important part of software development, but a distinct skill from programming (though, given the preference for a lack of functional distinctions -- at least strict ones -- within software development teams in many modern methodologies, its often a skill needed by the same people that need programming skills.)
Well here's my counter: mistakes either make sense to make or they don't. If they make sense to make, they aren't mistakes, and AIs will make the "mistakes" (e.g. inserting random behavior every so often just to see what happens--it's easy to program an AI to do this). If they don't make sense to make, making them will not be an advantage for humans.
At best you're saying that we'll hold humans of the future to a lower bar, which does not sound like much of an advantage.
I'm not saying there will or won't be AI some day, I just thought that point was relevant to your comment.
One day we'll be tempted to write a more serious, more complex "game", with real world consequences. For those, we'd better specify our goals precisely, lest we face unforeseen unfortunate consequences —there will be reasons why the machine does it better, ranging from faster computation, exquisite motor control, or a total lack of ethics —assuming ethics wasn't part of the programming.
Next thing you know, you need to solve the Friendly AI problem.
The technological singularity is a hypothetical event in which artificial general intelligence (constituting, for example, intelligent computers, computer networks, or robots) would be capable of recursive self-improvement (progressively redesigning itself), or of autonomously building ever smarter and more powerful machines than itself, up to the point of a runaway effect—an intelligence explosion[1][2]—that yields an intelligence surpassing all current human control or understanding
- Wikipedia
We should rejoice in that fact. We are woefully unprepared for true learning programs as a species. Let us hope that between now and the time we do manage to create one that we mature to the point where we don't create these thinking entities for malicious purposes.
That's a long way off and we'll face a lot of other problems before then.
For instance, fear mongering of a looming AI. We're better off focusing on teaching kids computer science and allowing them to see for themselves how theoretical and unscary true AI remains.
People, up until very recently said that computers being able to beat people at Go were a long way off too.
With the danger of sounding stupid, isn't that what Deep-Q did?
http://arstechnica.com/science/2015/02/ai-masters-49-atari-2...
> Scientists tested Deep Q’s problem-solving abilities on the Atari 2600 gaming platform. Deep-Q learned not only the rules for a variety of games (49 games in total) in a range of different environments, but the behaviors required to maximize scores. It did so with minimal prior knowledge, receiving only visual images (in pixel form) and the game score as inputs.
Sure, the problem space is still fairly limited, but the AI did learn new games without much guidance at all.
How much time it will take however, I cannot begin to guess.
I don't believe that Deep Blue's victory in Chess has any similarity to AlphaGo's wins. DB was just brute-forcing its way through 100s of millions of positions. AlphaGo is using some learned strategy behind its moves.
If they would release the (trained) AI to everybody, that would prove that the training phase is general enough to beat any player, not just one.
Google doesn't have to pay for the CPU time. Ke Jie can find sponsors if he pretends he can beat AlphaGo.
(Edit: clarify)
edit: table showing gains as CPUs are added - https://i.imgur.com/xxdWUtV.png
[0] https://cloud.google.com/products/calculator/#id=f63f1fe0-56...
> Go is a complex ancient Chinese mind game played on a board with a 19x19 grid of black lines.
Computers have been beating humans at 9x9 Wei Qi for quite a while, because they can calculate all possible games just like Chess.
However, if Wei Qi machines are now being written to do pattern recognition, rather than move by move brute-forcing, it may be a different story entirely.
I think what Ke is underestimating however, is that the computer's learning rate is better than a humans. Even if the computer is not in his game now, in a little while it will exceed him.
Only a matter of time, Ke. Accept it.
This is worth revisiting -- like the absolute idiocy of someone who assumes that if another person, wholly unlike themselves, had read the same article, then they would reach the same conclusion. Group think loser. I mean, that's your assumption, right? Hahahah. Flubbing moron. Hahaha.
"According to the pace of AI's progress, it won't be long for AlphaGo to beat all human players, it may happen a few years later, even a few months later," added Ke.