I don't think that's quite true as a description of what we knew about computer Go previously, though it depends on what precisely you mean. Recent systems (meaning the past 10 years, post the resurgence of MCTS) appear to scale to essentially arbitrarily good play as you throw more computing power at them. Play strength scales roughly with the log of computing power, at least as far as anyone tested them (maybe it plateaus at some point, but if so, that hasn't been demonstrated).
So we've had systems that can in principle play to any arbitrary strength, if you can throw enough computing power at them. Though you might legitimately argue: by "in principle" do you mean some truly absurd amount, like more computing power than could conceivably fit in the universe? The answer to that is also no; scaling trends have been such that people expected computer Go to beat humans anywhere from, well, around now [1], to 5 to 10 years from now [2].
The two achievements of the team here, at least as I see them, are: 1) they managed to actually throw orders of magnitude more computing power at it than other recent systems have used, in part by making use of GPUs, which the other strong computer-Go systems don't use (the AlphaGo cluster as reported in the Nature paper uses 1202 CPUs and 176 GPUs), and 2) improved the scaling curve by algorithmic improvements over vanilla MCTS (the main subject of their Nature paper). Those are important achievements, but I think not philosophical ones, in the sense of figuring out how to solve something that we previously didn't know how to solve even given arbitrary computing power.
While I don't agree with everything in it, I also found this recent blog post / paper on the subject interesting: http://www.milesbrundage.com/blog-posts/alphago-and-ai-progr...
[1] A 2007 survey article suggested that mastering Go within 10 years was probably feasible; not certain, but something that the author wouldn't bet against. I think that was at least a somewhat widely held view as of 2007. http://spectrum.ieee.org/computing/software/cracking-go
[2] A 2012 interview though that mastering Go would need a mixture of inevitable scaling improvements plus probably one significant new algorithmic idea, also a reasonably widely held view as of 2012. https://gogameguru.com/computer-go-demystified-interview-mar...
That means that the problem is exponentially hard. EXPTIME, actually. You couldn't possibly scale it much.
Play strength scales roughly with the log
of computing power
The achivement was a leap towards the human level of play (and quite possibly over it). There might be additional leaps, which will take AIs WAY beyond humans, but none of those will scale linearily in the end. (And yeah, I guess you didn't want to say that either)
This is exactly the opposite of my sense based on following the computer go mailing list (which featured almost all the top program designers prior to Google/Facebook entering the race). They said that scaling was quite bad past a certain point. The programs had serious blindspots when dealing with capturing races and kos[1] that you couldn't overcome with more power.
Also, DNNs were novel for Go--Google wasn't the first one to use them, but no one was talking about them until sometime in 2014-2015.
[0] Not the kind of weaknesses that can be mechanically exploited by a weak player, but the kind of weaknesses that prevented them from reaching professional level.
To be fair, a lot of the progress in recent years has been due to taking a different approach to solving the problem, and not just due to pure computing power. Due to the way go works, you can't do what we do with chess and try all combinations, no matter how powerful of a computer you have. Using deep learning, we have recently helped computers develop what you might call intuition -- they're now much better at figuring out when they should stop going deeper into the tree (of all possible combinations).
> Pocket Fritz 4 won the Copa Mercosur tournament in Buenos Aires, Argentina with 9 wins and 1 draw on August 4–14, 2009. Pocket Fritz 4 searches fewer than 20,000 positions per second. This is in contrast to supercomputers such as Deep Blue that searched 200 million positions per second. Pocket Fritz 4 achieves a higher performance level than Deep Blue.[3]
The first steps are always the most inefficient. Make it work, make it right, make it fast.
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_Blue_%28chess_computer%29... [2]: http://cdn.slashgear.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/htc_touc... [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human%E2%80%93computer_chess_m...
I find this overly optimistic because of the huge amount of power required to run the Go application. Remember, we're getting closer and closer to the theoretical lower limit in the size of silicon chips, which is around 4nm (that's about a dozen silicon atoms). That's a 3-4x improvement over the current state of the art.
The computer to run AlphaGo requires thousands of watts of power. A smartphone can do about one watt. A 3-4x increase in perf per watt isn't going to cut it.
If there will be a smartphone capable of beating the best human Go players, my guess is that it won't be based on general purpose silicon chips running on lithium ion batteries.
On the other hand, a desktop computer with a ~1000 watt power supply (ie. a gaming pc) might be able to do this in a matter of years or a few decades.
I just don't see a 1000x+ decrease in the power required happening in a decade or two without some revolutionary technology I can't even imagine. Is this what you meant? I'm sure most people couldn't imagine modern silicon chips in the 1950s vacuum tube era. But now we're getting close to the theoretical, well-understood minimums in silicon chips, so another revolutionary step is required if another giant leap like that is to be achieved.
> physics and experience in working in semiconductors
> without some revolutionary technology I can't even
> imagine
> I find this overly optimistic
exDM69 never said it's not gonna happen, he just said that it's not going to happen in ten years, and I agree with him. Revolutions never occurs that quickly. To achieve that we don't just need an improvement of the current state of the art, we need a massive change and we don't even know what it's going to look like yet ! This kind of revolution may occur one day but not in ten year.
And it could even never happen, remember that we don't have flying cars yet ;)
The optimistic position is a bit like saying: "I 've lived 113 years, I'm not going to die now!". It's entirely possible for a trend to reverse itself. If machine learning has taught us something is that background knowledge (in this case, of processor technology) gives you much better results than just guessing based on what happened in the past.
It might as well slow down again and we have to remember that most humans in history saw little to no advances in technology over their lifetime.
I'm excited for the possibilities modern science opens up but I also think we might reach a point where fundamental progress stalls for a century or two.
Stacked 3D chips (HBM, etc), Heterogenous computing (OpenCL, Vulkan), Optical computing, Memristors, Graphene-based microchips, Superconductors, Spintronics, Quantum computers, Genetic computers (self-reconfigurable)
The rest of the technologies you mention have great potential but will they be available in a smartphone in one decade? I don't think so.
(2000 kilocalories / day -> ~100W; the brain uses about a quarter of your calories.)
I already know that your answer will be: "but this time it is a fundamental physics limit". Whatever. I'm jaded by previous doomsday predictions. We'll go clockless, or 3D, or tri-state or quantum. It'll be something that is fringe, treated as idiotic by current standards and an obvious choice in hindsight.
That previous constraints have been beaten in no way supports the argument that we will beat the laws of physics this time.
If the normalcy bias was in effect, they wouldn't be spending that money.
It's certainly possible that we'll break more barriers with clever engineering and new scientific breakthroughs. But that doesn't mean the Normalcy Bias isn't in play here.
However, I'm talking hundreds of billions spent on R&D to specifically to solve problems associated with chip manufacture. It took on the order of 25 years to solve each of the problems listed in the grandparent's post. Nobody would spend that kind of money or time on something that they think somebody else would solve.
Say you spent a hundred billion dollars to extinguish the sun- that wouldn't work. How much money you spend is irrelevant when you're up against what people call "hard physical limits".
I've read several articles saying that different cancers are not exactly the same disease, but more like different diseases with the same symptom (uncontrolled tumor growth) and different etiology, even sometimes different from person to person, not just from tissue to tissue. This was said to be a reason that a general cancer cure is so elusive. But is it really thought of as impossible, not just elusive?
Maybe our inability to extinguish the sun is also a limitation of knowledge more than a hard physical limit!
Even if I'm right about this, your description of the situation would still be accurate in that there would be no way to simply throw more money at the problems and guarantee a solution; there would need to be qualitative breakthroughs which aren't guaranteed to happen at any particular level of expenditure. If people had spent multiples of the entire world GDP on a space program in the 1500s, they would still not have been able to get people to the moon, though not because it's physically impossible to do so in an absolute sense.
Yep, that's my point, thanks. Sorry, I'm not in my most eloquent today :)
Finally, the hardware we are using to run these programs is insane. Sure the silicon is approaching some hard physical limits, but your processor spends most of that power trying to make old programs run fast...
My prediction is that with enough ressources it is possible to write a Go AI which runs on general purpose hardware that's manufactured on current process nodes and fits in your pocket.
It'll likely be hardware that can be generalized to run any kind of deep net. The iPhone 5S is already capable of running some deep nets.
As a friend mentioned, it isn't the running of the net, it's the training that takes a lot more computational power (leaving aside data normalization). A handheld device that is not only capable of running a deep net, but also training one -- yeah, that will be the day.
There are non von Neuman architectures that are capable of this. Someone had figured out how to build general-purpose CPUs on silicon made for memory. You can shrink down a full rack of computers down into a single mother board, and use less wattage while you are at it.
This really isn't about having a phone be able to beat a Go player. Go is a transformative game that, when learned, it teaches the player how to think strategically. There is value for a human to learn Go, but this is no longer about being able to be the best player in the absolute sense. Go will undergo the same transformation that martial arts in China and Japan has gone through with the proliferation and use of guns in warfare.
Rather, what we're really talking about is a shot at having AIs do things that we never thought they could do -- handle ambiguity. What I think we will see is -- not the replacement of blue collar workers by robots -- but the replacement of white collar workers by deep nets. Coupled with the problems in the US educational system (optimizing towards passing tests rather than critical thinking, handling ambiguity, and making decisions in face of uncertainty), we're on a verge of some very interesting times.
If you look at http://googleresearch.blogspot.com/2016/01/alphago-mastering... you'll find that Google's estimate of the strength difference between the full distributed system and their trained system on a single PC is around 4 professional dan. Let's suppose that squeezing it from a PC to a phone takes about the same off. Now a pocket phone is about 8 professional dan weaker than the full distributed system.
If their full trained system is now 9 dan, that means that they can likely squeeze it into a phone and get a 1 dan professional. So the computing power on a phone already allows us to play at the professional level!
You can get to an unbeatable device on a phone in 10 years, if self-training over a decade can create about as much improvement they have done in the last 6 months, AND phones in 10 years are about as capable as a PC is today. Those two trade off, so a bigger algorithmic improvement gets you there with a weaker device.
You consider this result "overly optimistic". I consider this estimate very conservative. If Google continues to train it, I wouldn't be surprised if there is a PC program in a year that can beat any Go player in the world.
Not necessarily the same kind, and, if I had to make the call, I would say they aren't of the same kind.
AlphaGo utilizes the "Monte Carlo tree search" as its base algorithm[1]. The algorithm has been used for ten years in Go AIs, and when it was introduced, it made a huge impact. The Go bots got stronger overnight, basically.
What novel thing AlphaGo did, was a similar jump in algorithmic goodness. It introduced two neural networks for
1) predicting good moves at the present situation
2) evaluating the "value" of given board situation
Especially 2) has been hard to do in Go, without playing the game 'till the end.
This has a huge impact on the efficiency of the basic tree search algorithm. 1) narrows down the search width by eliminating obviously bad choises and 2) makes the depth at where the evaluation can be done, shallower.
So I think it's not just the processing power. It's a true algorithmic jump made possible by the recent advances in machine learning.
It's obvious by just reading Hacker News.
This is what struck me as especially interesting, as a non-player watching the commentary. The commentators, a 9-dan pro and the editor of a Go publication, were having real problems figuring out what the score was, or who was ahead. When Lee resigned the game, it came as a total surprise to both of them.
Just keeping score in Go appears to be harder than a lot of other games.
The incentive structure of the game leads to moves that firmly define territory usually being weaker, so the better the players, the more they end up playing games where territory is even harder to evaluate.
Fitting analogy. There was a line in the film Blood & Donuts about the moon being ruined when they landed on it, which I couldn't really feel until today.
But nevertheless, fitting so much computing power in such a small device is a great achievement.
I don't think any mass comparison is really meaningful, mind, but it's not that simple.
My point is, humans "in the wild" likely didn't have any equivalent to chess, because they didn't have sufficient leisure time. Chess is a product of an environment that's just as "artificial" as the one which produced cell phones.
I think the entire analogy is stretched a little thin of the players requiring all of this, but I also think the original attack on the Go AI based on it's mass is off base as well.
The response of the Iranian sages was the invention of Backgammon, to highlight the role of Providence in human affairs.
[p.s. not all Iranians are willing to cede Chess to the sister civilization of India: http://www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/Sport/chess.htm] ;)
Plus, not far away in the future we will be able to connect an smartphone to a 3D circuit printer and print a new one, to achieve 'self-replication'
edit: according to the livestream
During the play, the computational requirements are vastly less (but I don't know the figures). It's still probably more than is feasible to put in a smartphone in the near future. Assuming we get 3x improvement in perf per watt from going to ~20nm chips to ~7nm chips (near the theoretical minimum for silicon chips), I don't think this will work on a battery powered device. And CPUs are really bad at perf per watt on neural networks, some kind of GPU or ASIC setup will be required to make it work.
For this particular example, training a system involves (1) analysis of every single game of professional go that has been digitally recorded; and (2) playing probably millions of games "against itself", both of which require far more computing power than just playing a single game.
This is equivalent to one person expending 500 years solely to learn Go.
Given the rules, and a big book containing every professional go game ever played, and no other instruction, it's not entirely clear to me that Lee Sedol would be able to reach his current skill level in 500 years.
> Evaluating policy and value networks requires several orders of magnitude more computation than traditional search heuristics. AlphaGo uses an asynchronous multi-threaded search that executes simulations on CPUs, and computes policy and value networks in parallel on GPUs. The final version of AlphaGo used 40 search threads, 48 CPUs, and 8 GPUs. We also implemented a distributed version of AlphaGo that exploited multiple machines, 40 search threads, 1202 CPUs and 176 GPUs.
In fact, according to the paper, only 50 GPUs were used for training the network.
I've seen this written by many people but is there any solid evidence/study that proves this?
Edit: seems like Pocket Fritz and Komodo are easily able to beat grandmasters.
This stuff is happening fast, and we might have found ourselves, historically, in a place of unintelligible amounts of change. And possibly undreamt of amounts of self-progression.
That's not exactly true
Not to mention that we suddenly forgot that computers have their own units of measurement, such as clock speed (hertz) and memory size (bytes).
Is it? The problem here is it is really hard to compare the TCO. For example prime human computation requires years and years of learning and teaching, in which the human cannot be turned off (this kills the human). A computer can save its state and go in a low or even a zero power mode.
>such as clock speed (hertz) and memory size (bytes).
Which are completely meaningless, especially in distributed hybrid systems. Clock speed is like saying you can run at 10 miles per hour, but it doesn't define how much you can carry. GPUs run a far slower clock speed than CPUs, but they are massively parallel and are much faster than CPUs on distributed workloads. Having lots of memory is important, but not all memory is equal and hierarchy is even more important. Computer memory is (hopefully) bit perfect and a massive amount of power is spent keeping it that way. That is nice when it comes to remembering exactly how much money you have in the bank. Human memory is wonderful and terrible at the same time. There is no 'truth' in human memory, only repetition. A computer can take a picture and then make a hash of the image, both of which can be documented and verified. A human can recall a memory, but the act of recalling that memory changes it, and the parts we don't remember so well are influenced by our current state. It is this 'inaccuracy' that helps us use so little power for the amount of thinking we do.
Are the units I proposed perfect for the job? Of course not, just look how much you wrote. But I bet that if you do the same "thoroughly" analysis for measuring computing by weight you'll be able not only to write a fat paragraph such as your last one, you can write a whole book on who wrong/meaningless/stupid it is (not that anyone would read such book though).