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Comment by badmadrad | Hacker News Reader

Alot of people here are somehow turning this into a USA/NSA bashing but thats a straw man. The fact of the matter is you can't be imprisoned in the US for a crime you haven't committed or at least that judge and jury haven't deliberated on. Can you say the Chinese have the same safeguards ...probably not? Yes, governments have and always will have the vested interest to retain their power but that's why we must have our rights and legal system. I feel like the Chinese don't share this luxury as much as we do.

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>The fact of the matter is you can't be imprisoned in the US for a crime you haven't committed or at least that judge and jury haven't deliberated on.

Kevin Mitnick spent 4.5 years in jail waiting for trial.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Mitnick#Arrest.2C_convic...

I find it funny(sad?) that this happens, yet we're told that we are innocent until proven guilty. At the same time, there can be a man that stabs a person to death of front of a dozen witnesses, is caught by the police immediately after covered in blood and a knife in hand, with it all caught on tape, and they'll still refer to this guy as an 'alleged' murdered.

Go figure

Are you suggesting that all criminals should be released immediately after being arrested? Clearly that is false: not all criminals should be released after being arrested (as an extreme example, if a man goes on a rampage and shoots 20 people, clearly he should not be out on bail pending trial). Obviously the judge made a mistake in believing Kevin was a security threat, but there is nothing wrong with the principle of detaining people pending trial.

Meanwhile, in China, you have bookstore owners, bankers, and government officials "disappearing" left and right.

> but there is nothing wrong with the principle of detaining people pending trial.

There isn't if and only if we deliver on the promise of a speedy trial, which we don't.

No. Even if there were no promise of a speedy trial, this principle stands.

and the principle means effective imprisonment doesn't require a trial.

Obviously it doesn't because it means allowing the innocent to be jailed without trial, not OK.

It is not obvious. The government has an interest in being able to detain serial killers pending trial.

Yes, it is obvious that allowing the government to jail people an undetermined amount of time before a trial is defacto punishing without trial and unethical. Even "alleged" serial killers deserve a speedy trial because they aren't guilty until proven so. Rights aren't about the governments interest, they're about ours, and allowing detention without trial for years at a time is wrong under all scenarios.

I already agreed that detention pre-trial is OK if and only if there is a speedy trial.

>Are you suggesting that all criminals should be released immediately after being arrested?

I am not and I don't really understand how you came to that conclusion based on my comment. It's completely reasonable to hold people pre-trial but without the guarantee of a speedy trial you end up with a method for states to hold people indefinitely.

Look at Julian Assange's situation. He has prominent academics, human rights lawyers and the UNHCHR on his side, and Sweden/UK/US have still basically imprisoned him with no trial in exchange for never breaking a law. China is definitely no worse. I feel safer here in China than in the US with its overbearing corrupt police gangs and litigious gun culture, by far.

That's nonsense. He is fleeing arrest by locking himself in neutral territory. That's self imposed house arrest.

Whatever you think of Julian Assange, "imprisonment without trial" has been his choice. If he were to leave the embassy, he fairly certainly would receive a trial.

How can you believe that when they literally forced down diplomatic planes over Europe for just some of the leaks the US are out to get him for? When the whole Swedish bar association is up in arms at the abuse of process and Swedish image related to the farcical charges? When the documents about his police statements there were all leaked and clearly show his innocence from the allegations? To me, your thought process just seems naive.

>Kevin Mitnick spent 4.5 years in jail waiting for trial.

Kevin Mitnick waived his right to a speedy trial. Coincidence, I think not.

True Americans should defend their liberty from Government and yet not fall int trap of overlooking the fact that they are better off than most people in the world and certainly better than China or India.

Having said that if China's actions can be used to hold mirror to American government I am all for it.

Civil forfeiture laws in my opinion are a good example of pre-crime.

You can be be found in contempt of court for not providing information that you have not been proven to possess. One guy spent 14 years in prison without being charged or convicted of a crime, and never had any input from a jury: http://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=8101209

Additionally, you really have zero constitutional protections in the US if you're a member of the armed forces.

The Patriot Act actually says otherwise. All you need to do is get yourself classified as a terrorist and you lose every last right you ever thought you had.

> The fact of the matter is you can't be imprisoned in the US for a crime you haven't committed or at least that judge and jury haven't deliberated on.

Because the constitution says something, doesn't make it true. We're a war mongering empire and a police state who imprisons more of its population than any other country. Holding people in jail without trial absolutely happens under our rule both in and out of the country.

That's a misuse of the word strawman.

Also "our shadow government with totalitarian tendencies is better than theirs" is kind of flimsy#.

The FBI frequently radicalizes and encourages vulnerable, alienated people to execute terrorist plots. Sure, they don't arrest people for 'pre-crimes', but they do manufacture terrorists so that they can 'catch' them.

The CIA, FBI, NSA, and a few other alphabet soup agencies have a regular history of mass violation of rights and egregious human rights abuses. Who has forgotten the Senate report about CIA torture already? The CIA was forcibly anally raping unjustly detained individuals as part of its interrogation program. People who paper over the atrocities regularly committed in the name of liberal democracy undermine democracy by refusing to distinguish it from a far inferior and quite obviously broken system. It seems like there's a short memory and long list of excuses for the abuses perpetrated by nations like the US.

# This is a strawman of your position.

These wars and "plots" happened before the US even existed. Did the Americans time travel in order to create them or what am I missing here? How do you think religion spread in the past, peaceful missionaries?

Just to be clear, you don't believe the US is using the data to violate the rights of Americans without due process, right? If so, you're wrong.

Straw man! hacker News' favorite expression!

> The fact of the matter is you can't be imprisoned in the US for a crime you haven't committed or at least that judge and jury haven't deliberated on.

The fact of the matter is that people have been sent to prisons in the oh-so-righteous America without a single court hearing. Also, haven't you ever heard of Guantanamo? You know, that magical place where the US government sends people for decades and submits them to "rectal feeding" while they're there?

Straw man!!!

[0] http://theweek.com/speedreads/560204/half-million-americans-...

[1] http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/09/nyregion/kalief-browder-he...

[2] https://www.reddit.com/r/explainlikeimfive/comments/3e6m7z/e...

[3] https://www.aclu.org/news/president-obama-signs-indefinite-d...

[4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_of_Daniel_Chong

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