Are coders worth it? (2013) | Hacker News Reader

Are coders worth it? (2013)

aeon.co

59 pointsshubhamjain45 comments

Does Brad Pitt work 5000 times harder than X struggling actor? If someone is wondering why coal miners aren't generously rewarded for their hard work, they've obviously missed an important lesson. Apart from perhaps your parents or in the public sector, no one cares how hard you work. Mostly it's all about the value you're able to provide. Developers just happen to be wizards of the modern era. Politicians, the priestly class, and financiers the kingmakers. I absolutely agree with the sentiment about all the "nonsense" teen social apps, but they're obviously providing value to someone, to investors or advertisers if not users.

> Apart from perhaps your parents or in the public sector, no one cares how hard you work

As far as The Market is concerned it doesn't matter how hard you work, but people do care.

Those who just do care but not related to the market usually won't pay anyway.

> Brad Pitt

How aprorpos. Back in early 90s it was mainly meritocratic, and now it has taken a definite turn towards entertainment.

> Mostly it's all about the value you're able to provide.

And the scarcity of that value.

It's not quite the value you provide. That's the ceiling. It's how much alternatives cost.

The cost of the alternative is basically how value is defined in economic theory. Similar to the term "opportunity cost".

There doesn't seem to be a better way to define value. You could say it's the subjective intrinsic value customer places on the item/service. But if you try to quantify that, you're left looking at the value of the things he's willing to give up to obtain it.

Can we get away from the "programming" == "web programming" fallacy? Building simple CRUD on a RoR stack is but one tiny part of the professional programming world.

Hell, I could consider myself a web developer of sorts, and I wear many hats: algorithm design, basic database optimization, backend services, REST API design/implementation, basic security, profiling/benchmarking (client-side, server-side, and backend services), basic interaction design, basic project management (of the tech lead variety), code review, debugging, basic devops deployment/monitoring, etc. etc. etc.

(You might notice I put "basic" on a lot of those; I'm just old enough to have stopped thinking that I'm really good at most of this.)

...and that leaves out the zillion other things that programmers of various stripes do: custom kernel builds, real nuts-and-bolts database optimization (i.e. "OK, I'm going to go patch MySQL now"), sensors/microcontrollers, real-time computing, scientific computing, distributed systems design/implementation, content design, visual design, data analytics, growth hacking, user testing, playtesting, statistical machine learning, writing academic papers, public speaking (e.g. "developer evangelist" roles, or anyone who ever has to present their work in meetings), open-sourcing...

gasp OK, I've got to go do some of the aforementioned things now, before I spend all day writing this list :)

Part of the author's point is that (he thinks) most web programmers don't do those things. For example, he points out that he is freeloading off the work of the people who develop the Ruby on Rails framework.

"Coders" just write instructions for computers. What use are they? Other people do the real work.

What do truck drivers do? They just move the wheel. Other people do the real work of building the truck and designing it and telling it where to go.

What do truck dispatchers do? They just tell it where to go. Other people do the real work of actually driving the thing, building it and designing it.

What do truck assemblers do? They just put the thing together. Other people do the real work of driving the thing, telling it where to go and designing it.

What do truck engineers do? They just design the thing. Other people do the real work of driving the thing, telling it where to go and building it.

So the real money goes to the guy who takes all of those things and puts them under one roof, farming out the implementation details to others. What of it?

Interesting to see the scornful mocking of Tinder here, when just a few years on it's produced so much value for so many people. (Sure, no-one needs it - but no-one needs the selection of fresh groceries in the supermarket either. Sex is every bit as human and fundamental a need as food).

The truly naive thing, the glib and facile thing, might be thinking that writing or coal mining should be worth more than coding, based on nothing more than this impression that coding is "kids playing around with tools given to us by adults".

You can live without sex, but not food.

Interesting :)

True, but it means gene death, which is arguably worse. Physiologically, ostracism is indistinguishable from physical torture, particularly during the reproductive years [0]. Sustained long enough, this can make people act in strange and unpredictable ways, as if in death throes. The Elliot Rodger case comes to mind.

[0]: http://scan.oxfordjournals.org/content/6/2/234.full.pdf+html

but it means gene death

Sneaking suspicion that Tinder users are not exactly using the service for procreative purposes.

shudders imagined they were for a second.

If you don't eat food and you die, you're still gene dead. You haven't solved that problem. Besides, there are brilliant minds that have had a bigger impact on the world and created a legacy stronger than most of the gene undead.

> In today’s world, web developers have it all: money, perks, freedom, respect.

Wait, what? I am a coder and I don't have unlimited perks, freedom, money or respect. There are so many coders those days that we are nothing more than numbers.

Perhaps that's true for rockstars programmers from Silicon Valley, but that sure isn't true for my part of the world.

I find a lot of coders underestimate their own value. Take a look at the market, maybe do some interviews - even if you are happy in your current job, it's well worth knowing your market value.

$80k after a few months sounds crazy but it really isn't. $80k in salary in NYC would probably equate to $50-60k anywhere else besides SV, which is a reasonable starting pay. With rent as high as it is in NYC I can't imagine there's much left in savings out of that salary. That's some frugal living...

This article is a total and utter joke.

In my city, the vast, vast majority of people earn shit wages under shit conditions. They will work for their entire lifetimes and at the end of it have a state retirement which affords them some rice to go with their beans.

Software development is one of the very few careers that allows its' workers just about enough, in some cases but not all, enough to buy a home and to have some leisure time.

Yes, we are worth it. _Everyone_ is worth that. The fact that not all careers reward enough for basic living is an indictment on our society.

Not only that - he's talking about food at work and fancy bloody chairs as if they actually mean anything. Wake the fuck up. Your boss has seven, eight, nine figures in the bank. That's 'indispensable'. Not this Stockholm Syndrome bollocks.

Divide and conquer.

I really enjoyed this article, I think he is capable writer, and has brought something to a broad audience that I bet everyone reading HN takes for granted. The rest of the comments indicate that this audience is too close to see the big picture.

I see web development mainly as a form of communication, which has always been important for society. But it can also be for entertainments sake like gaming. I don't really recognize the picture the author paints for me.

For example, I rarely call companies if there's an live-chat, I buy stuff from companies that has an attractive purchase system etc etc.

I am unsure as to what the central point is to this post, but I will try to rebut two ideas I think are central.

1. Coders are paid way more for the effort and hardship they put in at work. This reduces the value of hard work.

Even if programmers are paid more than - say a coal miner - for the effort they put in, it does not diminish the value of hard work. I think we can all accept that :

Success = function(hard work, talent, luck)

Since hard work is the only thing in that equation you can control, you must always work hard. This is why parents try to emphasize the value of hard work. I think it is obvious, even in the software industry, given the same talent and same luck, people who work harder are more successful. So, if your goal in life is to make a lot of money, you better be a software engineer than a coal miner. Figuring this out and making an effort to be a software engineer also counts as hard work. Some people call it smart work, but it many ways, it is just the same.

So, this is the way the world is. But is it the way the world should be ? The author also takes issue with coal miners being paid less. We all know people follow incentives. If coal miners are paid more, more people will try to become coal miners. Coal mining is a dangerous job and we should not have any more people doing it than is absolutely necessary.

The reason software engineers are paid so much is because people do not pay for the hardship that you faced for providing them some value. They pay for the value delivered. Once a piece of software is written, it can be used by millions or billions of people. If each of them paid for the value they received, software engineers would earn their salary. This is why musicians, authors etc are paid a lot of money too. It is fitting and proper that we do this, since these type of activities ( large amount of benefit produced for little effort ) should attract more energy and people than say, coal mining.

2. I am paid more than I deserve. I am humble enough to admit it. You should too.

It is important to know if you are paid more than the value you deliver. But the truth is that most people take your self-report about your value to be a proxy to determine how valuable you are. Imagine walking into an interview and saying : 'I am paid $125K at my current job, but I don't think I deliver that much value'. If you are so humble, you may not get the promotions that you deserve, you may not get the opportunities that you deserve, you may not get the pay hikes that you deserve, you may not get the jobs you deserve. Being humble is mostly only useful if everyone else feels threatened by you. Most people in the world are not threatened by software engineers. We are pretty low status.

You left out education in your function, which I think is paramount to hard work & talent & luck. The education will give you direction, which is an input into your hard work and the catalyst for the discovery of your natural talents.

The reason why programmers are worth so much isn't as much about the value they deliver. It's true -- it can be very profitable. However, software developers are scarce in nature because of the education needed to write code.

Agreed. Our hourly wage does not equal the amount of hard work during that hour. It's also a (amortized) function of all the years you've spend in or outside of school perfecting your skills.

IMHO I don't think the writer's work as a programmer ever had valuable impact. He probably spent all his career doing CRUD. Take Google for example, it's just a web page, and yes a colourful logo and a search box and yes that single search business is worth millions of dollars if not billions. Is it worth it? Now imagine your life without Google. Tell me if it's worth it.

Compensation for developers will drop over the long term, especially at the junior level.

Compensation will come in line with the comp received by other professions which require similar levels of IQ. The comp for those other professions is likely to go up as well. Over time compensation for people of roughly equivalent intelligence will reach a dynamic equilibrium.

Are hedge fund managers worth it? The author should put those guys into comparison too, not only the coal miners.

Say what you want, but I doubt anybody would accept anybody as hedge fund managers after 6 months into a Hacker School. The fact that 6 months or less of training are enough to make $85k is very, very, telling of the situation. Note that those huge salaries and easy barriers to entry will bring salaries down and commoditize things. I think it's good that sometimes you guys do a bit of reality check, especially if you plot things against the long term. I doubt 10 years from now a RoR developer will be so much above the median salary.

Though you should be honest and note that no one is making $85K after 6 months or less of training. Those people are obviously filling positions, but not the $85K ones.

I dunno.

One thing I do know is that in the same geographic area you will commonly find two programmers who do similar things but one of them gets paid twice as much as the other.

It may be true that one is more productive than another, but if you talk with the boss in either situation the story you will hear is that they have a budget to pay somebody $X and so they pay $X and that is non-negotiable.

I personally know five people who landed salaries of 100 k$/yr or more after three months of programming training.

That's five people whom I'm on close enough terms with to overcome the salary discussion taboo. So I imagine there are many, many, many more.

And were they able to keep those jobs?

I firmly believe that programming is a creative and not production job. With that in mind, some people are naturals and everything just clicks for them. Others are perhaps silver tongued and can talk their way into the job even without the needed skills up front. Those will either learn on the job, ride on coat tails, or flame out. And then you have those who clearly have no clue and the hiring process was flawed in some deep way.

The real test is, do they still have the job 3/6/12 months later? If the answer is yes, then either they deserve the salary or their boss doesn't.

Four of them are more than two years on. The last just started, so we'll see.

I think you underestimate the number of people for whom it clicks. Programming does seem to require a certain amount of general intelligence, but the notion of an innate specific talent being required for it isn't supported by my experience.

If you don't mind a few questions: In what city? At what type of companies? With what kind of previous educational and career background?

SF/NYC. Liberal arts college degrees from well-regarded universities, public and private. Minimal previous careers (none were more than two years out of college), but all non-technical. The jobs are at various smallish, startup-ish web oriented tech companies.

Thanks for filling in more useful details!

Note that those huge salaries and easy barriers to entry will bring salaries down and commoditize things.

The commoditization of programming has been predicted for a long time and we're still waiting.

And that's because demand has exploded. If you look at the technologies available today and, say, 10 years ago, wouldn't you say you need much less coders now than then to do the same things? That means one of 2 things can happen in another 10 years: demand keeps exploding, in which case you might be right; demand stabilize, in which case good luck sustaining $100k+ salaries for college kids with <3 years of work experience.

There is no inherent more added value in programming than in other professions, it is a pure demand thing. Without demand, things should go back to "normal" with low salaries on the entry level side and high paychecks on the management side (because it's more valuable effectively managing 10 resources than 1).

If we believe that software is eating the world, it makes sense that more and more coders will be needed to keep up with the transformation. Will it stop at some point? Maybe, but when?

I agree it's supply/demand. If it were pure value then teaching would be the highest-paying profession.

That's Jevon's paradox applied to services. The more our productivity increases (that is, our labor get cheaper) the more money people will spend on our services. That's of course limited to the maximum potential our work can have on the world.

By the way, do you know how long does it take to become a professional coal miner?

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