Liberal, Harsh Denmark
nybooks.com
nybooks.com
But looking here (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_refugee...) they still have 4x refugees per capita compared to the US, 2x more than Australia, and still have more refugees per capita than Germany. And they're well above most EU countries. And I can almost guarantee they're more generous to refugees than the US.
Seems funny for a US paper to be calling Denmark "harsh".
However, the jews were also forced to pay vast amounts - in cash, jewelry and more - to the kind fishermen who ferried the jews over to Sweden. Not all danes participated out of kindness of heart.
The heroes of then - the fishermen - were what we today label as "people smugglers".
The real heroes were the danes who participated without pay and simply because the jews were their freinds, neighbours, parents of their childrens friends etc.
"Denmark has long led the continent in its shift to the right—and in its growing domestic consensus that large-scale Muslim immigration is incompatible with European social democracy."
Europeans have generally experienced good cultural assimilation from immigrant populations, although I imagine conservative Jewish populations are an exception, leading to some troubling parallels right now. American politics and journalism make those parallels uncommonly mentioned in national media, but we should be considering them as societies.
At the same time, lack of assimilation to these previously well functioning societies is troubling. The lack of liberalism (in a formal sense, not an American political sense) is here on HN, too; debate on the story about whether religiously conservative men could/should be able to move women away from their assigned seats on planes was shockingly vigorous to me. This seems like a battle that countries like France and America helped win decades ago.
I read a suggestion many years ago (well before Turkey entered the EU) that in part Northern European countries "worked" because of their social homogeneity, and their success at cultural assimilation of immigrant populations. However true that is or was, that homogeneity is seen as at risk right now.
Like anyone, I have some mixed feelings about this as seen from across the Atlantic. I both like and dislike America's fragmented and vigorous culture, and I think of these more homogenous countries like I think of the small town I live in; with some rose colored glasses on about how 'nice' they must be. And a small town can be nice. But, it can be nasty if you don't fit in. And a small town with a massive population influx can lose its niceness quickly.
At any rate, it seems to me that Denmark should be allowed to ignore Syria if it wants, and also turn away refugees if it wants, or vet them on whatever criteria the country decides to. Right now liberal and right-wing (in the European sense) politics are ending up in bed together over immigrants, liberals on the behavior front, and right-wing on the culture front. Things seem likely to get more heated and violent before they cool down.
People like to repeat the trope that diversity is strength that it's invigorating. But in that, the only diversity that matters is the diversity in thought, not necessarily in culture. There are as many successful nations which are diverse as there are those which are homogenous and there are as many failed nations which are diverse as there are homogenous. However, if you look at a Northern Ireland, Algeria or Iraq or India, when trouble hits, it stirs up animosity among the groups who play the blame game.
In times of trouble or uncertainty stability is likely more likely retained the more homogenous the group as everyone is in the same boat and there is no one to scapegoat but the self.
From that perspective I can understand Japan, Denmark or Bhutan.
That said, some cultures integrate into the host culture more readily and successfully --Indochinese (Vietnamese) in France, or Chinese in France, for example, or Jews in Latin America, Indians in the US, Chinese in the Malay peninsula, than some others who retain or want to retain their mother culture and thus find a clash and harbor mixed feelings and alienation.
FYI: Turkey is not in the EU.
I'm a dane living in Copenhagen. I am atheist as well. I really do not get what you mean by "conservative Jewish populations are an exception" to good cultural assimilation.
I grew up unaware of the jewish population, I studied and later worked with several jews, unaware that they were in fact jewish, My wife had several jewish friends from college. Except for the fact that some of them chose to live "more" jewish than others - and generally take Fridays off - I have never ever noticed them to stand out in any way. In fact, I have known several people for years without realizing that they were jewish.
They seem to have been assimilated to the point where it is actually a threat to the (little) cultural diversity that Denmark has.
It is the same way in the other Scandinavian countries. Your comment is very, very strange.
> I read a suggestion many years ago (well before Turkey entered the EU)
Turkey has not entered the EU. In fact, due to concerns about democracy and human rights, they have not even been promised that they can start negotiations.
> Like anyone, I have some mixed feelings about this as seen from across the Atlantic. I both like and dislike America's fragmented and vigorous culture, and I think of these more homogenous countries like I think of the small town I live in; with some rose colored glasses on about how 'nice' they must be.
One very important mechanism to make the Danish society work, is trust. We are generous with welfare. We have paid education through college/university or equivalent. In fact, in addition to free tuition, we will pay you to take an education. Danish "SU" ("Education Support") amounts to DKK5941 /month - apx $10464/year.
The backside of the trust is, that one of the least socially acceptable things you can do is to cheat the generous system.
> At any rate, it seems to me that Denmark should be allowed to ignore Syria if it wants, and also turn away refugees if it wants, or vet them on whatever criteria the country decides to
It seems to me, that every country in the world - Denmark included - should accept their fair share of refugees. Smaller populations with different cultures are generally not a problem. Only when populations with very different culture and religious views grows faster than their culture as well as the host country culture can adapt to eachother do problems arise.
I'm sure those aren't the people the parent commenter was referring to.
Jews throughout the world follow an incredibly broad spectrum of belief and practice, including an extremely broad set of views about how to relate to other cultures. At the most conservative end, there are some communities who view it as an essential life priority to try to follow all of the laws of the Torah fully and literally. This may include not only the dietary and Sabbath laws, but also rules about sexual modesty and limiting physical contact between the sexes
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tzniut
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negiah
and for some people also varying degrees of effort to limit social interactions with non-Jews
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bishul_Yisrael
See generally
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haredi_Judaism
for the people who are making the most conscious effort to be socially and culturally separate from secular society.
(This is also reflected in the way anti-Semitic sentiment in Western Europe tends to focus on Israel and perceived Zionist conspiracies whilst Islamophobic sentiment tends to focus on the idea that Islam could never be compatible with European culture)
Inre: Jews in Europe, I was referring to more strictly observant Jewish communities, a feature of life in Europe for hundreds of years, sometimes coalescing into voluntary Jewish quarters and often in involuntary ghettos. There are places in America that you would feel very uncomfortable walking if you were without a beard, hat and tzitzit (a vest/shirt with tassels). I don't know if Denmark has a population so observant, but if it does, I would bet they consciously try not to integrate into general society.
Denmark has a proud history of standing up to Hitler in WW2 inre: Jewish rights, and if I lived there, I would be proud of it.
I think that the acculturation issues are deeper than you seem to, though. For instance, I'm half Greek -- I can tell you for some Greeks cheating the system is a cultural positive. That is so very, very different than what you describe in Denmark. And that culture-cheating perspective is far more common in the Mediterranean basin than it seems to be up North, for whatever reason.
If my grandfather was any indication, you can put an immigrant in a new country (America in my case), but you will not take away the whole culture. It takes a generation or two, and that's in a population that's pretty aggressive about assimilation -- greek immigrants are encouraged to go to good universities and climb the social ladder. My grandfather was full of stories about working the system until he died, and he was proud of them. I don't think it's uncommon.
But it's really a cultural thing. In France, my garage would offer two options for paying, "with receipt" and "without receipt" as they put it nicely. This didn't raise an eyebrow.
I suppose you refer to South America, because the North is not BY ANY MEANS fragmented.
You can go anywhere in the US, from West Coast to East Coast and you see:
Everybody speaking the same language. Some small places will also speak Spanish and French, but everybody speaks English.
Everybody having the same religion -puritan culture. There is a significant amount of people believing in creationism as something Christian, when in fact Catholic or other views of Christianity had not accepted that for centuries.
Everybody sharing their own political believes. All believing the same mythology(the founding fathers like sacred creatures, the Constitution and so on).
Everybody watching the same TV channels, going to the same stores(Wallmark...)
They play the same sports. They go to a basketball play and first thing they do is put their hands over the heart and sing the same hymn.
Now compare that to Europe when you cross the channel from France to England , and you have different language, different cultures, people driving on the other side, values change, religion change, even weather is completely different.
Denmark is totally different to Holland, to France, to Switzerland, to Poland, to Italy, to Spain to Greece...
Hispanic culture in Los Angeles is noticeably different from white culture in Boston, which is noticeably different from black culture in New Orleans. First generation Filipino culture in Seattle is noticeably different from second generation Cuban culture in Miami. What does South Dakota culture have in common with Little Armenia in LA? Only the minimum things that all people share, otherwise they're very different. Is most of rural Texas similar to the cities of New York or San Francisco? Not even remotely close.
America is in fact wildly diverse, from food to media to customs.
Also, if you have any questions regarding this whole matter, I would like to answer them as best as possible.
Brace yourself, a new wave of anti-immigration thinkers arrive, like me. We are educated, we are smart, we are non-dogmatic. Now it will be the left whose arguments will look stupid and unwieldy. You better prepare your best thing.
As a french guy, I think people should be really cautious about taking a large proportion of (relatively) poor people less educated than natives, sure it makes you feel good about yourself, then you realize that these people are more likely to be unemployed, criminals, and discriminated. I don't think it makes a country more tolerant, I think the opposite happens, prejudices simply grow, and not only without rational explanation. And 40 years later you have gigantic problems.
Are french people of Arab descent discriminated in France for example? Yes I think so, and I'm pretty sure it would not be the case if the only Arab immigrants France had taken had been very educated people. Presumably the prejudice about them now would be that they are very educated/successful.
Sure France did a terrible job at integrating immigrants from Arab countries, and I'm 100% sure Danemark will do better. Still, it's very difficult.
I'm seeing it right now in Europe, helping these refugees didn't make the countries more tolerant, it only had the opposite effect of giving more power to far-right parties.
Isn't Danemark already relying on the "solution" of "sending more and more of them home"?
With 31 governors refusing to receive any Syrian refugees at all (and so too your likely next president) I think Americans should keep the Euro bashing at a minimum.
The US has taken in 10 million immigrants (twice the population of Denmark) from just Mexico in the last 30 some years. You don't think those people are every bit as much refugees as the people of Syria? They've fled intense poverty and domestic war, and they're willing to die to try to get across the US border to a better life.
How much more do you think the US can absorb exactly?
The middle and upper classes can afford to feel nice about supporting unrestricted immigration for the longest, because they don't have to see or acknowledge the problems it causes until it's too late.
You see the same kind of hypocrisy in the US west coast, where wealthy liberals treat poor southern conservatives with contempt and ridicule for their "racist" opinions of immigrants... up until the "white tech dudebros" started moving into their cities, at which point they used every law on the books to impede development and prevent newcomers from integrating into their society...
I've had to eat my prior words and praise sung in favor of N.Europe to my friends and family and restrict it to just Sweden, because the entire world can now see the reality of the actions taken in adversity by each of the countries and not just the words.
It is a small matter of consolation that the iphones so many Danes and Norwegians love is the brainchild of a man with Syrian blood whom they would have refused to shelter while counting their nickels and dimes. They are welcome to deal with that cognitive dissonance as they fade into the twilight of history while hoping the names of their ancestors are not much tarnished by the actions of the current generation. It would take a long time for the world to forget these things.
(edited)
Its basically a very messy situation.
Secondly, the current conservative government has indeed a tough line when it comes to asylum seekers and refugees. Their allies from DF have in particular an obsession for muslims, which leads to fairly transparent measure such as mandating the presence of pork in menus offered by the city of Randers to "preserve Danish food traditions" [2].
If we ignore momentarily foaming-at-the-mouth-about-muslims-but-we're-really-not-racist DF types, it's hard to deny there are real integration issues with immigrant populations. However, I wouldn't be so quick to put the blame squarely on these people. You regularly have tests which show that, depending on how ethnically Danish the name on your resume sounds, your chances of getting an interview, all other things being equal, are drastically different. And I have the feeling that anti-Muslim feelings have become relatively mainstream.
On the other hand, you do have a number of Muslim extremists which clearly have absolutely no intention of integrating and who'd be better off emigrating to Saudi Arabia, for everybody's good.
1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danish_general_election,_2015
2: http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/01/danish-city-pork-prote...
I can't, most of people in most of countries can't too. We're instead driven by a combination of dictatorship, baseless populism promoting things nobody wants, alienation ans promoting political agenda over citizens' wishes.
As in the US, the problem is politics. Climate change, health care, judges, and most of the rest of the issues have obvious solutions, it's just that some politicians currently refuse to participate on the grounds that other Americans also get a say in what happens (it is a democracy, after all). Unless they get their way 100%, undemocratically imposing their will on the rest of the country, no matter what their fellow citizens vote for, they won't act.