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Comment by willvarfar | Hacker News Reader

How does the Leaf connect to the servers to receive commands? How secure is this link? It would be easy to speculate that after breaking into the link between Nissan servers and the car you'd be able to do rather more mischief and likely exploit vulnerabilities in the software itself to do things not exposed in the API. Its easy to imagine that there isn't even a firewall between the remotely-accessible system and the engine control system. Its also easy to imagine that the data being uploaded to Nissan is rather more privacy-invading than the travel log exposed by the public API. We want someone to hack into the Leaf and expose it wide open.

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I've been wondering this too. Tesla does it as well. It makes me feel "bad" on the inside from a security perspective.

Can I turn this feature off? How does it communicate?

> Can I turn this feature off?

The article says that you can, by disabling CarWings/NissanConnect. Which you should probably do if you're a connected Leaf owner, as it lets anyone control AC/heating and gives them historic driving information (date, distance and "driving efficiency").

> How does it communicate?

Lost the source (maybe one of the forums linked from http://www.troyhunt.com/2016/02/controlling-vehicle-features...) but I read the CarWings service sends an SMS to the car, which contacts the webservice to return its information.

Turning off the web API stops people communicating with Nissan's webservice; it doesn't stop the car communicating with Nissan's webservice.

The car actually randomly asks you permission to do this. You will start the car up and there will be a dialog asking you to continue to allow the computer to communicate with Nissan. If I recall, you also need to enter in some credentials into the car's computer for it to communicate with Nissan.

The car actually randomly asks you permission to do this.

No, it asks you every...friggin'...time you start the car, with no way to say "you have my permission from now on". I wish it were random, at least that way there be times I don't have to punch the "OK" button.

Only the 2011 and 2012 model years worked like that. Newer Leafs only require you to acknowledge the agreement every few months.

Is there an upgrade ? This is an unbearable nag screen.

No. And even better, when CarWings stops working at the end of the year because there's no AT&T 2G network for it to connect to, you'll still be pressing "OK" twice a day for no reason at all.

Tesla do it properly though.

No remote back doors, automatic updates, and ability to control my hardware are done "properly."

It's giving Tesla the keys to the car I bought from them.

When did such an egregious affront to privacy and device security become acceptable?

On a Tesla its not a back door, its a front door, and its there by design. If you don't want a car that can accept some commands from the net, don't buy a Tesla. But my point is that given they wanted those features, Tesla at least built them with security in mind.

I was very interested in the car up until they said that they would push out an "over the air update," please would you be able to point me were on their product page they said they could push software updates and remote commands to your device after you purchased it?

I must have missed that. I originally thought the Tesla was a great car, but I at some point saw that you could remotely manipulate the car and there was no method of disabling it.

I don't think anything of this nature is personally acceptably and I hate similar systems (see onstar).

> please would you be able to point me were on their product page they said they could push software updates and remote commands to your device after you purchased it?

"Model S periodically receives over the air software updates that add new features and refresh the touchscreen look and feel."

"Autopilot features are progressively enabled over time with software updates. The current software is 7.0, adding automatic steering and parallel parking."

https://www.teslamotors.com/models

"We may use personal information for a variety of reasons, such as those listed below: To provide service to your Tesla vehicle, including to contact you with service recommendations and to deliver over-the-air updates to your vehicle."

https://www.teslamotors.com/about/legal

"Tesla vehicles regularly receives over-the-air software updates that add new features and functionality. When an update is available, you’ll be notified on the center display with an option to install immediately, or schedule the installation for a later time."

https://www.teslamotors.com/support/software-updates

There's probably also purchase and service/warranty agreements you'd be signing prior to buying the car, but I don't own a Tesla so I don't know what's in those.

Wow can't believe I missed that, it's crazy.

Never going to be buying one of those then.

Remote-brick-support is not a feature you want, and that goes double for any device that moves 100MPH with you inside of it.

Wait 10 years, every car manufacturer will be doing this, otherwise they'll have no easy way to patch their software.

BTW the Tesla wont update while you are driving it, lol.

Until the FBI demands Tesla add this capability to immobilize terrorists.

And I expect Tesla to react the same way Apple did. "GTFO"

If you don't like remote access to your Tesla, then go into the settings, locate the "Remote Access" slider, and slide it from ON to OFF.

If you don't want updates being applied to your car, don't press the INSTALL NOW button when the prompt appears, nor the SET FOR THIS TIME option to install it later.

Where did you get this idea that remote access can't be disabled and that updates happen without user intervention?

Has anyone actually check into if those settings could actually prevent Tesla from connecting to your car?

I'm not concerned about that end API, I am concerned about the company being able to manipulate my car without my knowledge or permission.

I don't know how one really could check that. At some point you have to trust the manufacturer to do what they say they do. Or don't, but in that case you can't really buy any car, since even if they don't advertise remote access, they could be lying.

I don't think I'll ever trust the manufacturer. I always need to check for myself. There is a lot of cool stuff I have learned over the years about cars as a result.

Will you tear apart every future car looking for a hidden cellular module?

That's a lot easier than tearing apart every piece of software in a car to look for security vulnerabilities, intentional backdoors, and private information leaks.

Yep, but still more effort than I've heard anyone going through (besides spy agencies and the like, anyway).

I'm doing OK so far just buying older cars that were never saddled with any such crap, but I imagine that when enough time has gone by that I seriously have to consider a vehicle built that comes ready-to-exploit from the factory, enough hobbyists will have figured out how it's done that ripping out the radio won't be such a challenge.

Or the kind of people who care of such things will be long gone. Or it'll be illegal.

Tesla cars connect to the net via a standard SIM card arrangement. So there is a SIM card somewhere inside the dash that you could find and pop out if you really wanted to be sure. But then its goodbye autopilot, etc.

Autopilot will still work fine. It may receive periodic data updates, but it doesn't require a connection to operate. All you'd lose would be remote access through the app, further software updates, and any remote diagnostics Tesla might be able to do if you have a problem, assuming you also kept the car off WiFi.

That to me seems like the best option, considering a Tesla owner could then put the car back in when they need more assistance with the car or just, as you said, connect it to WiFi.

That seems like an agreeable compromise in my book, it requires user connect for Tesla access.

> How does the Leaf connect to the servers to receive commands?

Cellular, apparently commands are pushed to the car via SMS, and the car connects to a webservice to return info or whatever.

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