This jacket uses the same material as NASA’s spacesuits to keep you warm | Hacker News Reader

This jacket uses the same material as NASA’s spacesuits to keep you warm

techinasia.com

29 pointswilliswee27 comments

> Michael Markesbery, CEO and co-founder of Oros, tells Tech in Asia the jackets utilize Aerogel, a material used by NASA in their spacesuits. It helps with insulation and allows the apparel to be warm, thin, and lightweight. Aerogel is considered to be the most effective thermal conductor on the planet as it is 90 percent air. Oro’s jackets are, on average, only 3mm thick but give the same warmth as a 40mm Goose Down equivalent.

I don't think you know what "thermal conductor" means. I also love the claim that the gloves are self-heating without any need for a battery. Do little fires get started in them that you have to feed with wood pellets? Or do they just use those rust-heat-pouches?

I was wondering the same thing - Friction between material layers with movement + an very low loss insulation layer would qualify as "self heating"...kinda.

I'm more interested in the SolarCore AeroGel they created, and its actual insulation properties when compared to pure "Legacy Aerogel" - I'd imagine incorporating it into a fabric like substance would significantly decrease its insulating ability

Very true. Pure silica aerogel = 18-20 mW/mK Solarcore = ~28 mW/mK

Woah, real numbers! Thanks!

Hi! OROS Apparel team here :)

The aerogel in the gloves is coated on one side with pure graphene. Graphene is the exact opposite of aerogel. While aerogel has an incredibly low thermal conductivity (making it an awesome insulator), pure graphene has an incredibly high thermal conductivity (making it a great conductor). Most metals act the same way as graphene (they have high thermal conductivities)-- think about the last time you got in your car on a hot summer day and went to put your seatbelt on. You accidentally touched the metal part of the seatbelt and immediately regretted your decision. It was hot. Metals, like graphene, pick up heat in the presence of heat (hence high thermal conductivity). So, imagine the graphene coated side of the aerogel is facing your hand. Your hand releases heat. The heat gets picked up by the graphene. The graphene heats up. The heat does not easily escape, because on the other side of the graphene is aerogel (an insulator). You now have, essentially, a self heating glove without a battery.

The claim of being blasted with liquid nitrogen is kind of silly. I put my hand in liquid nitrogen for 10 seconds before getting scared and my hand didn't get much colder than if I had put it in water.

Ten seconds seems like quite a long time to submerge your hand in liquid nitrogen without ending up with serious burns. I'm not sure I believe that. Perhaps it was shorter and you were briefly protected by this:

> Dr Alex Valavanis [notes that] liquid nitrogen "does not immediately feel cold". He says the delay in feeling the cold is down to the "Leidenfrost effect" - which happens when a liquid, in near contact with a mass significantly hotter than the liquid's boiling point, produces an insulating vapour layer.

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-19870668

I had a physics professor who, on a couple occasions, would gargle a small amount of liquid nitrogen. Between the constant motion of the liquid and the Leidenfrost effect, he was fine. Still wouldn't try it myself.

> a self heating glove without a battery.

So if I were to say leave this glove on my countertop, it would be warmer than room temperature inside?

I'm still a little confused about how something with a high thermal conductivity improves things. If your glove is at room temperature and you stick your hand in, it will initially feel colder, because of the high thermal conductivity of the graphene, correct? The side of the aerogel inside the glove will also warm more rapidly than if the graphene wasn't there.

When the graphene reaches equilibrium with your warm hand on one side and the cooler aerogel on the other side, it will rapidly balance any changes in equilibrium on either side, and actually make your hand feel cooler faster, if there's a sudden drop in temperature.

So, are you getting thermal conductivity confused with specific heat?

I suppose that a thermally-conductive inner layer might help in terms of perceived warmth, if it reduces localized "cold spots" that might be more-noticeable.

For example, warming the sensitive tips of your fingers with heat carried from your palm, etc.

> Your hand releases heat.

True, but I already own a "self-heating hand".

If someone is selling a "self-heating glove" I expect it brings its own heat to the party.

The graphene layer harms the warmth of the glove by transporting heat from the hand, where it is needed, to the insulation, where it is not needed.

A perfectly insulating glove would not conduct heat at all, in any way. Actually this would be bad, because the hand would overheat.

Welcome to Hacker News! We understand physics here.

> Welcome to Hacker News! We understand physics here.

I know you're not really supposed to make "ha ha me too!" reddit-esque comments here, but I waited until things had died down! And that gave me a hearty chuckle.

TechInAsia: "Aerogel is considered to be the most effective thermal conductor on the planet as it is 90 percent air..."

Something was definitely lost in translation between us and the media outlet.

It should say... "Aerogel has one of the lowest thermal conductivities"

This threw me for a while as well!

I have the original version of the Oros jacket (it was also a Kickstarter). Am definitely very pleased with it and would buy again. I've also backed the Kickstarter for this one (specifically, the gloves). My only criticism of the jacket is that it's somewhat chilly when you're just standing in place. If you're moving at all, it's super warm. They may have fixed this in the latest version.

Also, fair to note that I've never felt a need to wear anything more than a t-shirt underneath the jacket.

This is super interesting— I have an obsessive streak and haven't been thrilled about the seemingly slow progress in bringing new materials to use in the apparel market. I was actually looking into aerogel yesterday (it's available as a commercial product now, from places like http://www.buyaerogel.com) and I was curious about why I hadn't seen it in use for this application yet.

In general, I find it frustrating how difficult it can be to find materials to experiment with. I can get basic nylons from places like http://ripstopbytheroll.com, but a lot of more interesting options (like the stuff by pertex) is really difficult to find by the yard.

/derail

Funny, they write "Aerogel is considered to be the most effective thermal conductor on the planet ..." where they mean insulator!

This is interesting - I've been looking for the ultimate lightweight waterproof and warm jacket. So far I've settled on:

http://www.patagonia.com/us/product/mens-insulated-torrentsh...

My criteria:

- I don't want any bulk, puffy jackets are unwieldy to carry

- I need it to be reasonably waterproof - say I don't get wet for 15-20 minutes in moderate rain. This rules out most softshells.

- I need it to be warm, just waterproof doesn't cut it in New England weather. This rules out most rain jackets.

- If it'll last long or has a good warranty, I can tolerate up to 300-400 bucks

- I need it in US extra small (34-36" chest)

- I need it to be breathable, otherwise I get sweaty when I'm riding a bike for transit

What I don't like about the patagonia one is mostly the latter issue about breathability. Theoretically it's breathable, and definitely more so than other jackets I've owned, but it can't keep up. I end up widening the wrist holes and zipping down a little, which isn't the worst, but wind + sweat gets REALLY cold after a while. What I really need is pit zips, I think. It also /could/ be warmer but I think that would ruin the versatility of the jacket - I don't want it to be unusable in spring and fall.

Looking at this, it seems very close. Seems thin and lightweight (couldn't find exact measures). They have the pit zips. Removable hood is great. Front visor seems to extend pretty far. The insulation hopefully is good, though not proven like primaloft or goose down. No x-small for men, plus the already loose ski-style fit means this is probably going to not fit small / skinny guys like me. How it deals with washing and being wet is a question. Warranty is a question. Quality of stitching / how the material holds up is another one.

This could be great, or not, too early to tell IMHO. But definitely a contender!

Waterproof and breathable are at odds with each other, no matter what the manufacturers claim. You would be better served by multiple jackets. When you need waterproof, wear a rain shell as your outer layer. When you need wind blocking, wear a wind shell as your outer layer. When you need warmth, wear an insulated jacket (under a shell as a midlayer if necessary).

http://store.tripleaughtdesign.com/Apparel/Jackets

Check TAD out, they do XS and have all sorts of jacket options for you. The quality is also super solid.

Waterproof and warmth aren't usually a useful thing to mix. Because when you really need it to be water-proof you likely don't care that much for the insulation (although you do care about wind-resistance), where as when it's really cold - it really makes no difference whether it's waterproof or not.

I tend to get a light non-insulated (but wind-resistant) shell and a light down-jacket - which in my experience works under all but the most extreme conditions.

There have been a couple of attempts over the years at using aerogel in high-end outerwear. Year ago, champion sent a mountaineer to the summit of everest wearing a full-body aerogel insulated suit.

Two big problems: 1) Aerogel is very fragile and tends to crumble 2) It's almost too good an insulator

#1 is a big issue for outerwear because any high end jacket used in mountaineering will see some sh*t.

#2 is another big issue because you sweat and exert a lot of heat during intense exercise. The jacket design has to incorporate the material intelligently to allow venting.

I'm curious to see how this oros jacket addresses these issues.

Back in 1975 I had a leather motorcycle jacket with a similar claim. It had a center lining of aluminised mylar (?) with some kind of white filament woven in and out of it. It was indeed very effective, and reduced the bulk of my inclement weather wear considerably.

So these guys have invented a flexible aerogel and they need a Kickstarter before they can get funded to make some jackets? Where did this miracle material come from? Why are they just talking about clothing? You would think the world would be beating a path to their door right about now.

There is a chance that they are using a new aerogel made from cellulose that is prized for its strength and flexibility.

Article: http://www.rsc.org/chemistryworld/2014/07/plant-material-ali...

Publication: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/wol1/doi/10.1002/anie.2014051...

One thing I find interesting is that 'aerogel' is a category of materials. I thought it was reserved for the silica based aerogel i've seen countless news stories about. The wiki definition is "Aerogel is a synthetic porous ultralight material derived from a gel, in which the liquid component of the gel has been replaced with a gas". Theoretically, you could market fiberglass insulation as 'Aerogel insulation' if you suspended the glass fibers in a gel and then replaced the gel with a gas. The result could have worse insulative properties that standard fiberglass and yet technically be an aerogel.

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