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Comment by 0xffff2 | Hacker News Reader

I can appreciate the sentiment, but I actually like doing things. Don't get me wrong, I probably spend much more time than most in front of my computer, but even so.

I'm a photographer -> Two bags full of camera gear, tripod...

I'm a hiker/backpacker -> Backpack, tent, sleeping bag, hiking boots...

I'm a cyclist -> Bike, helmet, gloves, pump...

I'm a computer engineer -> Solder station, wire cutters, crimping tools...

I'm a DIYer -> Saws, hammers, screwdrivers...

I would love to have less stuff, but the amount of myself that I would have to strip away for it to make sense is mind boggling to me. I go looking to get rid of stuff all the time, but even though I have a lot of things, I use all of them. I truly can't wrap my head around the idea of living a fulfilling life with only a laptop and whatever furnishings came with my apartment.

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I wish there was a startup in this space.

I have so much house maintenance stuff. For example, I only really need a ladder once a year. But I keep it around forever because when you need a ladder, you need a ladder.

I would love to not have to store and maintain all this stuff and to just request it on demand. Can someone solve that for me?

I'm embarrassed to admit that sometimes it's easier for me to just buy a new tool than to find the right one at the bottom of a tool box somewhere. It seems so wasteful...

Same goes for all my hobby stuff too. (I too have a huge bag of mountain climbing gear that gets used only twice a year.)

Yeah I tried renting stuff like camping gear, instead of owning it. The University athletic services was glad to rent me old-fashioned heavy tents and so on. For about $50 per campout. It was about the same price to buy good stuff, and use it a dozen times!

I'm suspicious that an own-in-common club or organization would end up asking me to pay too much for old stuff. It'd be hard to avoid - they'd want to depreciate it all or whatever. A hard startup to invent.

I think you're underestimating the cost of good equipment. Yes, a bunch of fragile Coleman gear at Walmart will all fit into that budget, but it would be quickly destroyed if put through the "government mule" life cycle of rented goods.

Pffft. I bought 3lb backpacker 2-man tents on sale for $200. Used them carefully, they lasted for 25+ trips.

Oh! I see - yes those tents were fragile and high-tech and would have probably lasted less long in general use. So that's part of the problem - rental to the public is hard on equipment. Again, its hard to see a startup model here that would work.

Somewhat offtopic, how often did you have to re-seal the seams on those? I brought out some nice old tents a summer or two ago that had served me well as a kid and sadly found that it was as waterproof as a sieve.

Never done it. Those backpacker tents were made of some strange tacky fabric that felt like gel?! Anyway they lasted 5 years and then got lost (loaned out and never came back)

That "fragile gear" is lightweight and a lot better for hauling on backpacking trips. If you're not a gorilla and are careful with stuff, it'll last for decades. I had a cheap nylon tent that was probably 25 years old when I finally got rid of it; I sold it for $5 in a garage sale and it was still in great condition even though I used it extensively in Boy Scouts. I replaced it with a newer, nicer nylon tent that I barely use.

No, these tents probably won't hold up well with careless renters who don't care about taking care of stuff and abuse stuff. So why should I pay the same amount as a brand-new nylon test for some crappy old canvas tent with mold, which weighs 10 times as much, just so I don't have to own a tent? It makes no sense at all. I'd rather have a nice, clean tent that I own, and I can grab any time someone wants to go camping with me. Tents don't take up that much space when folded up. And even if the Walmart tent only lasts 3 trips, you'll still be saving money over the crappy rental tent.

In my neighborhood we all borrow each others gear, whether it's home improvement stuff, or occasionally used outdoor sports gear. Any startup in this space would have to establish the "trust" feature of a sharing community, which is a feature that a friendly neighborhood has built-in.

You might be on to something if you find an easy way for people to publish their inventory of stuff to a trusted group of neighbors, maybe with a smartphone app to take pics of the gear? That way you leverage the trust that already exists, and just make the publishing and discovery process easier.

We use Nextdoor and our street's email mailing list for this all the time.

EDIT: Nextdoor and email lists only provide the in-group communication solution, not the inventory solution. It would be interesting to see an inventory solution that worked with a variety of communication services.

Instead of trust, it may be possible to rent stuff in usual way by leaving a deposit and paying per hour for using someone else's tool.

And there are plenty of companies all over the world who operate profitably renting tools & equipment to homeowners.

Yeah, and the stuff they rent is probably mostly old junk and beat to hell because renters don't take care of stuff. It's probably a lot cheaper to just go to Harbor Freight and buy a tool there than to rent something.

This really varies. On numerous occasions, I've gone to the rental place, taken one look at the machine, and then immediately left said rental place. Once, I had to wait for the dude to take the brand-new backpack leaf blower out of the box and pour in the first bottle of oil. I had no problem waiting that time. It's always a good idea to have the dude start the motor before you load up.

Harbor Freight is great for hand tools you'll use occasionally, or power tools you'll use rarely. There's a reason people who use those tools for a living shop elsewhere.

The last mechanic I talked to said Snap-On tools had become overpriced junk, and Harbor Freight tools were a much better value. This is for hand tools, mind you. All the hand tools I've gotten from HF in the past few years have been excellent, better than anything I ever got from Craftsman (except torque wrenches; I haven't tried HF's, and my old Craftsman torque wrenches are excellent).

Yeah, if I were a professional, I wouldn't use HF power tools either. But we're talking about DIYers here, not pros. And even good-quality name-brand tools from Lowe's/HD are a better value than renting.

The only place I can see where renting a tool makes sense is for something pretty large, that costs at least $500. For instance, a ditch digger is something I would rent, not buy: it's big, needs maintenance, and probably costs several thousand dollars new. And it's not something I'd need to use much, probably only once. But power tool that costs $80? Just buy it. I'll come out way ahead buying it, using it, and then reselling it on Craigslist than renting it.

I've never used a Snap-On tool; that always seemed like a scam. I have an HF torque wrench that's got to be 10yo by now. It still works, but I don't really ask much of it. Bicycle stuff, usually, with an occasional top-mounted oil filter on a diesel engine (the latter only because everything is plastic now, and one wants neither to break something nor to have oil dripping all over; in the days of steel I would have just gripped a short wrench halfway off the axis and pulled hard). If I were rebuilding transmissions I'd have a good torque wrench. I've broken enough wrenches that I can pretty much tell when it's going to happen, and now I stop before that point. For that reason, it's probably true that an HF wrench is at least 90% as useful as any other. I have yet to really pull on an HF wrench that I would call "excellent", however. Various hammers and chisels I've purchased have all lost their shape after just a bit of hard use.

I have HF power tools, but there's something slightly off about each of them, whether that's a flimsy plastic body, a saw blade arbor that moves around, or whatever. I don't use any of them on even a monthly basis. If I did, I would upgrade. Everything my brother has borrowed for a job has quickly failed. He doesn't buy much at Harbor Freight.

I have a Craftsman cordless drill that has lasted forever; it predates the tiny b&w Makita drills all the contractors have been using for years now. Since the battery is old-fashioned dry cell rather than lithium, I just took it to Ellis Battery for a rebuild when it failed.

>I have yet to really pull on an HF wrench that I would call "excellent", however. Various hammers and chisels I've purchased have all lost their shape after just a bit of hard use.

The HF socket wrenches and sockets I've used have been at least as good as any Craftsman competitor, even from over 20 years ago.

However, for chisels, if you're talking about for woodworking, that's something I doubt I would buy from HF. For proper woodworking, chisels have to be incredibly sharp and hold an edge, and that requires high-quality steel. I guess if you're just installing some door latch plates a HF chisel might be OK though, but I'd get something nice for doing any serious woodworking because having really sharp chisels is critical for quality work.

For communities that prefer municipally provided services, Tool-Lending libraries are a great option: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tool-lending_libraries

a friend of mine is working on a company like that.

http://sharesy.co

Coworkers might be another good trust network to build off of. It also has the benefit of you essentially being required to know your coworkers, while you aren't guaranteed to know your neighbors.

Let me encourage you and anyone else reading this comment to get to know your neighbors, if possible.

Seriously, this. I can't tell you how many folks I know who have never met their neighbors, don't even know their names. That is so strange to me, I am not especially social, but I know quite well all neighbors in both directions for at least 3 houses. I can say this sort of thing comes in handy in the event of any emergency (you both know who to trust and who to avoid..)

This. We don't need a slew of startups to solve this problem; it's called talking, and it can be done via any of several existing {meat,cyber}space communications channels.

(I'm hardly a Luddite; rather, I think there's a lack of appreciation for basic interpersonal communication as a powerful technology in its own right.)

I don't remember where, but in recent memory I saw an article about an apartment building where residents would mark their doors with icons representing appliances/tools they were willing to share - a simple solution for an easily solved problem. (See also: rideshare boards on campuses, bulletin boards and flyers in local shops, local community centers, etc.)

Talking & organizing has it's own costs. Something like uber or airbnb could theoretically be done by talking and coordinating, but the organizing software that makes it seamless makes it something ubiquitous.

This model isn't great for a lot of things. Snow blowers and lawn mowers, for instance - they will break down at least once a season once you cross a threshold (single digit) of users.

Apart from all the other issues mentioned in this thread, one of the issues that stymies products like this is the asymmetric nature of delivery networks. From a user experience perspective, it's a lot easier to deliver something TO a person's house than it is to deliver something FROM a person's house. After your first attempt trying to return a tool, you become discouraged from ever trying again.

But you know what, we actually have a highly efficient system for transporting packages from people's houses, it's called the trash and recycling network. I wonder if there's an opportunity there to leverage this network... Imagine if returning something was as easy as wrapping it in a special plastic bag and then throwing it in your recycle bin. On the truck, special sensors would detect the presence of the bag and shunt it to a separate storage area of the truck and, from the depot, it would be placed in the conventional mail stream and sent to where it needed to be.

Probably crazy unworkable but fun to think about :).

I am mingling with a startup idea (that I can't really build now, but perhaps in 4-5 years, for various reasons) that would solve your problem; however, I concluded that the only way to solve it is to live in a crowded area (like in a condo) and have a dedicated storage area for this.

I can't think of any other way to efficiently and cost-effectively handle this.

There's a place in Berkeley CA. I forget the name, but they loan out stuff like tools, and I believe camping/sporting stuff. They run it like a library. I always thought it was a great service.

Prior to our modern atomized ways of living as individuals instead of parts of a community, most people solved this problem by getting to know one's neighbors and community members and borrowing amongst each other.

Doubting this. I lived with my grandparents for awhile in the 1980s, in their neighborhood which was established in the 1950s. I remember everybody had their own everything - tools, lawnmowers, snowblowers, ladders etc. Borrowing happened, but there were socially acceptable reasons for it - something was broken, you just moved in from the city and hadn't bought everything you needed yet, etc. Anyone who habitually borrowed the same thing over and over just because they didn't want to buy it would have been ostracized.

That's exactly how it worked in my community when I was growing up. But-- people had significantly lesser buying power and tools were significantly more expensive.

So it was always getting it from a friend or a friend of a friend.

Consequently there were many cases where relationships would get tense because of late/non-returns.

There are things like the Denver Tool Library (http://denvertoollibrary.org/) that help to solve this problem.

What I want is a delivery version. I'd pay $xx/month for access to tools and other household items I rarely need along with $x per delivery and pickup to not have to go get them.

>What I want is a delivery version. I'd pay $xx/month for access to tools and other household items I rarely need along with $x per delivery and pickup to not have to go get them.

This reminded me of a startup idea that I have, I think one of the biggest items that could be rented out would be generators. Right before a storm hits deliver the generator and once power is back up, pick them up.

This is a big problem with the community sharing model. It seems like at least twice the hassle of craigslist exchanges since you have to coordinate two physical meetings rather than one. Then there's the whole issue of the borrower isn't quite done with the object yet, please try again next week.

Generators are likely not to be available right before a storm hits. Ownership is really the only model that works for items that are needed at exactly the same time, by everyone who would ever need them.

That sounds like a rather niche problem. Most people do not have lots of money to burn and no free time.

Maybe you could hire an Uber or a Task Rabbit to go pick up your tool.

The cost of renting something and having to pay for delivery is probably going to be more than just buying it outright and owning it after that for whenever you need it again.

Plus, the rental company is undoubtedly going to charge you jacked-up late fees when it turns out you don't get your project done on time and need to keep the tool for another day.

When it's so cheap to just go buy a workable tool from Harbor Freight, or a really nice tool from Home Depot, why bother renting some beat-up, abused, crappy tool from a rental place? On top of that, when I need a tool for something, I sure as hell don't want to sign up and have to wait a week for it, I need it now to fix something. I may not use it often, but when I do need it, it's invaluable to have it immediately ready to use.

You've identified why I have so much clutter in my garage and house. I do exactly this - it's cheap to buy most of these tools compared to the cost of renting, and there's a surprising amount of overhead and liability in renting stuff.

That said, I do think there's something off about my accounting. I live in SF - the tool may cost X dollars, but what's the yearly rent on the square footage that the tool occupies? Just to sit there unused 99% of the time.

I'm starting to rent things not because it's cheaper but because I'm beginning to understand the psychological effects of having too much clutter in a relatively small house.

But yeah, renting is really expensive with all kinds of little gotchas, and it's a surprising hassle, too. Almost as much of a hassle as having a lot of clutter around.

Instead of renting, it would probably make more sense for you to buy the tool, use it for a while, and when you're done with it, resell it on Craigslist. Given all the hassle that goes with renting (as you mentioned), reselling on CL is probably no more hassle. And you'll wind up saving a lot of money too.

+1 for DTL. I've used them quite a bit for projects and had great luck. Currently have been borrowing tools to rebuild a motorhome and without them I would be storing and laying out a significant investment of tools. I would pay quite a bit more per year for a "Netflix of Tools" if delivery were fast and reasonable.

I am surprised big box hardware stores do not have programs to rent out bigger ladders. Personally, I do need a smaller ladder frequently, though. Community/family can be a good way to share tools, too.

I have re-bought tools/parts I was fairly certain I already had, but simply did not have the time to sift through things to find. Especially for home projects that I had a small window to work on and I did not do my due diligence ahead of time to look for them.

> I am surprised big box hardware stores do not have programs to rent out bigger ladders.

They do. I rented one several months ago to change some can lights on a 15' ceiling. They have basic power tools as well, though the selection is spotty from store to store.

> "though the selection is spotty from store to store."

Need a middleman "broker" with accurate local data and up to the minute stocking data. There's two "close" home depots and a local lumberyard with rentals and a regional contractor supply and a local contractor supply. Which of those five rental agencies has a stump grinder for rent tonight? Check back with me in 30 minutes. Would be nice to have an app that could tell me instantly...

They do, actually. Home Depot has a large rental department. You can rent ladders here:

http://www.homedepot.com/c/painting_and_wall_equipment_renta...

The hard part about renting big ladders is transporting them. There are plenty of big-name places like Home Depot or Lowes that rent out their equipment like that.

> Community/family can be a good way to share tools, too.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_Illich#Tools_for_Convivia...

Dougald Hine had a great talk I saw on Vimeo, I believe (it was ~7 years ago), where he went in depth on Ivan Illich's life and work, and he also mentioned how monks used to keep books hidden in nooks and crannies spread about, and they shared their locations and movements with one another in a p2p fashion after hiding them, using them, and getting more info about them and their users.

Also, before couchsurfing.whatever, I head from a very early adopter, that in his youth, his community kept notebooks of who had a couch, where, and how to reach them. Then you could find hosts with the same algorithm as a DHT-like PageRank kinda thing (friend of a friend of a very good friend... said ___; is it true, can we ___?).

So, I guess that for Derek (and other people who already have what they need and have comfort in life), a good gift from these people he mentioned would rather go to someone else, directly, who he would in some way see a benefit, indirectly or very indirectly.

I think that's what omni is trying to solve. Store your stuff and have it delivered on demand. Then the next stage would be to allow you to rent it out. Cool idea...

https://www.beomni.com/

Stay tuned :)

https://shareshed.ca

One of the local Habitat for Humanity Re-Stores here in Des Moines has a tool library that you can use for $200/year (or less depending on income). I just recently moved into a rental home and am virtually tool-less, so I'm considering it for the upcoming summer.

http://www.streetbank.com

We were discussing just this at a Cleanweb event last night.

>I wish there was a startup in this space. I have so much house maintenance stuff. For example, I only really need a ladder once a year. But I keep it around forever because when you need a ladder, you need a ladder. I would love to not have to store and maintain all this stuff and to just request it on demand. Can someone solve that for me?

Actually there is a sorta famous example of a startup that tried to do just that -- or close, they tried to build a social site for people to easily borrow whatever (ladder, chainsaw, etc) from other people in their area.

Turns out, most people said it was a great idea and encouraged them, and they even got lots of signups, but people really don't like dealing with strangers for such things, and nobody used the service in practice.

A, found it:

>There was just one problem. As Adam Berk, the founder of Neighborrow, puts it: "Everything made sense except that nobody gives a shit. They go buy [a drill]. Or they just bang a screwdriver through the wall."

http://www.fastcompany.com/3050775/the-sharing-economy-is-de...

and

http://entrepreneurship.org/resource-center/lessons-from-fai...

>There was just one problem. As Adam Berk, the founder of Neighborrow, puts it: "Everything made sense except that nobody gives a shit.

Ah, the good old realities of consumer marketing.

Quite the opposite.

Give me a "house improvement standard kit" and a well thought-out place to store it. A well-organized compartment, decent-quality tools that actually make sense, some extendability, and make it take up no space space at all whenever I don't need it. Charge $1000 (€1000) for it, and everybody will buy it along with their house once you've built a brand.

Oh god no. I've been collecting tools for decades. When I need another one, I buy it. The last thing I need is a giant box of which I already have 80%.

Me too. I wish there were an "Uber for photography lenses", an "Uber for power tools", and so on which deliver these items to you on demand, pick them back up when you're done, and charge appropriately you for the rental.

There are several places both by-mail and in person that I have rented lenses.

Yeah I guess. On second thought, perhaps it would be a step up if I could "rent anything" from one app. Imagine the selection of Amazon and the convenience of Uber in one interface.

On third thought, maybe Amazon could just do this ...

    > I wish there was a startup in this space.

Why must everything be a startup?

You can hire tools, protective clothing, etc. from many DIY/trade stores.

There is one :

http://us.zilok.com/

This is a service that's provided around here by my local hardware store, the local big box stores like Home Depot and Lowe's, and local specific equipment rental services. You can get indoor ladders from the local paint store.

The problem is that there's no easy and workable way to share most stuff, even though it'd be nice so we didn't need to own so much stuff.

Tools, for instance: if something breaks in your house, you need a tool right now if you want to fix it. Your toilet stops up? You need a plunger, NOW. You sure as hell don't want to sign up to borrow or rent one and wait a week for that. And do you really want to use someone else's plunger? What if they didn't clean it after using it?

There's all kinds of problems with the borrowing and renting models. People don't take care of stuff they borrow/rent (and some people don't take care of their own stuff). People don't return it on time. They break it. And what kind of stuff can you borrow/rent? A lot of times, it's substandard junk, or otherwise not up to your standards. What if you want to rent a table saw instead of buying your own, but the only model available is some plastic piece of junk with horrible accuracy? You might as well not even bother with a crappy saw like that if you're trying to do any real woodworking. This is typically the case with tool rentals: the tools they rent out are barely usable, and if they ever were, they're so abused when you get them that it's not worth the rental fee. Better to just buy your own, so you can get something good, and with so little use it'll stay in good shape for a long time, and be ready to use whenever you need it. Sure, it means you have to haul around more stuff when you move, but it also means you can do a lot of things without going through a lot of logistical challenges, or having to pay a lot of money to rent stuff, of having to wait.

You said you have a bag of mountain-climbing gear you rarely use. That stuff is, I presume, gear that your life depends on. If a carabeener (sp?) fails, you can fall to your death, right? Would you want to rent some ropes and other gear that you don't know how it's been treated or maintained, or could be some cheaply-made junk? What are you going to do after you fall to your death when something breaks, sue the rental company? And how much money would you actually save by renting this stuff instead of owning it anyway?

I've often thought that it would be great if someone provided a storage-unit-as-a-service. Send me a box that I can pack full of winter gear and send back, for example. Then send it back to me next winter, and I'll send in my summer stuff. Seems like shipping is still too expensive to make something like that work, esp when you start looking at things like ladders and lawnmowers and snowblowers.

I have always wanted see a business have a facility that operates similar to a fitness gym. Except instead of weights and exercise equipment, the facility would have table saws, and other power tools.

There are so many tools that I own, that I really only need once in a blue moon. I would totally buy a subscription to a facility that allowed me access to these kinds of tools.

There are probably a lot of legal implications with renting power tools out to the public. But I still think it would be awesome.

Like the Tech Shop?

http://www.techshop.ws/tools_and_equipment.html

Yea I've been meaning to get down to Chandler and check out Tech Shop for a while. Kind of like the gym lol.

Ahh yes exactly! I have never seen this before. Thanks for sharing.

Hey Nostromo.

Although I can't help you out with the ladder problem. My company is working to help people like yourself live more and own less, with experiences and services to fuel your lifestyle.

Eventually, we may move into the problem you described of renting out gear that you may only use once or twice a year. Which was the main problem, when me and my roommate were staring at a very expensive kiteboard and mountain bike that was just collecting dust, and never getting used. So I feel your pain on that note.

To start with we are offering a range of products and experiences which you never have to think about owning (or collecting dust) Some of these include - skiing, golf, camping and tennis.

We are launching March 10th in San Fransisco, and Bay Area. If you are outside of this, you will be the first to know when we expand to your area, and you can always download the app for free- this is us - http://share-hub.launchrock.com/ Sorry can't solve your problem right now. Hopefully one day we can :)

Like Omni (https://www.beomni.com/)?

These examples really emphasize how much it depends on the person and the hobbies/interests involved. In recent months, I've become very interested in arcade and pinball history. Those hobbyists are really wrestling with collecting individual cabinets at $200 to $1000 a pop versus just setting up a single MAME cabinet. Many fans are going MAME (storing 3,000 games in a single cabinet), but the hardcore hobbyists are often outright hostile to the idea and denigrate those who post pictures of their custom cabinets to the forums. For myself, the difference between a genuine cabinet and a PC running the same ROM is negligible.

Now, with virtual pinball, people are starting to encounter the same issue. I bought a real pinball machine recently and plan on squeezing another into my home eventually because the virtual machines simply don't feel the same. At the same time, I setup a virtual machine with 50-plus tables on it that I perpetually tinker with and try to improve with custom controls, larger screens, and eventually digital back-glass.

We have to take it on a case-by-case basis. I remember when Marvel started reprinting and digitizing all their old comics in early 2000. Issues in my collection went from $100-$200 to $10-$20 in value very quikly. I hang those old issues on my walls as art, but when I want to read them, I go to my tablet.

You can try to take on hobbies that don't require a lot of stuff.

Also, if you can keep the stuff for a hobby together on a storage bin is easier to put away when you loose interest and bring it back when you want to do it again.

That's a good point, though the article addresses it explicitly.

>I’m not saying anyone else should be this way. Back when I was a full-time musician, I had a whole recording studio full of stuff. But these days, everything I want to do is on my laptop. If I had a different hobby, I’d have a different situation.

And even if you have a hobby that requires things, receiving them as gifts is not a good idea. Can you imagine musician who received his musical instruments as gifts instead of carefully choosing them himself?

Yup. Wishlists are a wonderful solution to this problem. You indicate which specific item you want, perhaps with a justification for why, and someone has the option of getting it for you, or not. Or just giving you some cash to go towards getting that one particular item.

Of course, gifts in the $300+ range are relatively rare, so most musicians won't usually have to worry about someone getting them the wrong, but high enough quality you can't return it, item.

Somehow my sister collected enough gift certificates when I was a kid to get a nice viola. (note to non-music nerds, not a misspelling, its kind of a big violin)

The music instrument market is weirder now and uses cost as a race and class filter to keep the wrong people out. Collecting $25K for a conservatory class instrument in gift certificates in 2016 is a bit unreasonable, but "in the old days" they gave out scholarships based on ability and didn't use the art as a filter on finances, race, and class like they filter for today. Even today you could collect enough gift certs to get an instrument for the joy of music and learning, just not to get a scholarship.

> Collecting $25K for a conservatory class instrument

Wow. Considering you can get a perfectly functional violin for around $100 on Amazon (there's a great YouTube video where a professional violinist picked one up to trash it and ended up recommending it), $25,000 is a lot of money for an instrument.

I almost feel bad for the guy. I'm sure he doesn't want my sympathy, but my darkest days were the times when everything I did was on a screen.

Minimalism is not a practical matter; it's a principle, a culture, and a mindset.

If you observe the amount of things people throws away when moving to a new house, you'll realize that how many things are needlessly accumulated. You can bet that the same things were really needed before buying them.

I'd say that the most minimal application of minimalism (this is the idea of the post) is to recognize in advance that one don't really need them.

Expanding the concept of minimalism, I wouldn't say you don't need much of the stuff you're mentioning, rather that a minimalist "clone" of you could enjoy and/or perform (depending on the goals) the activities you've mentioned, with probably half of the equipment.

Besides, there are only the two extremes of having plenty of tools, and living only with a laptop and furnishing.

On the gripping hand: not owning a bunch of physical things is not the same as minimalism.

Minimalism in the sense of the web/hacker/milenial trend doesn't mean the same as minimalism in art or other domains. Not owning physical things is a big part of it.

It's not so much a question of what you throw away when you move as it is a question of what you're using regularly. I'll be moving for work soon, and I'll be throwing away/donating/discarding quite a few things that I will then buy on the other end. It's just not economical to ship a mattress, unless you're packing things into a UHaul, and that's not the only example. I would happily rail against the concept of disposable goods, but that's not the same thing.

I think the key problem with "stuff" is when "stuff" starts running your life and dragging you down.

People clearly have different thresholds for too much stuff, but there is one universal indicator for when you definitely you have too much stuff: You have too much stuff if you can't "put everything away".

By "put everything away" I mean be able to put everything away and then later find it without rummaging or unpacking boxes. It means having tables with nothing but permanent fixtures on them and shelves where everything is visible at a glance. It means, often, that getting new stuff means discarding old stuff to make room.

It takes a long time to get to that point, but it looks great and inspires creativity.

Everything you describe is a tool. I think there's a difference between unnecessary stuff, and tools.

A very insightful observation. That wasn't intentional. Upon reflection I think that everything I own outside of a small collection of half a dozen pieces of art could be classified as some kind of tool. That makes me feel somewhat better about the amount of "stuff" I have.

The line between tool and stuff is quite often blurred.

Lots of tools exist only to facilitate a very specific task and can be replaced by a less specialized one. Its not always as efficient but most of the time its enough. A knife can peel, mince, cut, etc. It can easily replace lots of 'stuff' in the kitchen.

The average guy who owns a toolbox will never use 80% of the stuff in that box. He owns the tools "just in case."

Or more likely, they needed it once. And they remember that time they got rid of something they thought they'd never need again...

That doesn't match my experience at all. I can't recall ever seeing a big box of unused tools. I mean who goes out and spends a bunch of money on tools for no reason?

99% of the time, people buy tools when they have a need for them.

Really? Never in my life have I ever bought a tool except when I had a specific need to use it. I can say with 100% confidence that I have used every single tool I own at least one time.

My tv is a tool. I use it to watch Netflix.

Agreed. I train Brazilian jiu-jitsu, which means I need to have gis, fight shorts and rash guards. That's not really "clothing", it's equipment, and I can't buy it just anywhere. I also train powerlifting, which means I have a rather serious belt (https://inzernet.com/detail_belt.asp?PRODUCT_ID=FOREVERBELTS...), Olympic lifting shoes, chucks, and wrist wraps.

Mr. Sivers emphasized repeatedly he isn't trying to convince anyone else to live like him.

And I'm not saying he is. I am saying that I would like to understand him and how he derives fulfillment out of his lifestyle better than I do.

See https://sivers.org/no2 for a little more context.

There are a few programming and writing projects that I've been wanting to finish for years.

So when I look at a new hobby or interest, like the ones you describe above, I think, “Ah... sounds fun... some day... But first I have to finish what I've started.” Not having the stuff around helps keep me focused.

The pain of not finishing my existing projects is greater than the pleasure I'd get from the new hobby.

(FWIW, the few things I own include the hiking gear you describe.)

Of course, it's possible to "do things" that don't require a lot of extra things. Writing, walking, meditating, listening to music, reading, making out, drinking tea, running, dancing, making electronic music, math, logic, praying, thinking, debating, making movies with your smartphone (one such movie recently won a documentary award), origami, chess, baking, cooking, lifting at a gym, hackerspace participation, movie club, podcasts, philosophy, swimming, concerts, penmanship, cards, geocaching, juggling oranges, composing, whistling, singing... programming... lots of possibilities.

Some people live ostensibly fulfilling lives owning nothing but a robe and a bowl.

Sure. But there's also a lot of stuff that does require having specialized things. (And a lot of your list actually does.) 0xffff2's point is that stuff is sometimes an enabler, not just a burden.

Personally, I don't have much stuff, and I like it that way. But taken to its extreme, and I wouldn't be able to do my favorite things.

Sure. I'm just trying to stimulate the imagination of someone who said they can't imagine a fulfilling life devoid of specialized items.

There's a question of "need", but for most people in first-world countries:

- Writing: Pens, Paper, Laptop - Walking: Shoes, Clothing (other than robe) - Music: iPod, Headphones - Reading: Comfortable chair - Drinking Tea: Teapot, china - Running: Specialized shoes and gear - Making Electronica: Synthesizers - Penmanship: Specialized quills and ink - Swimming: Swimsuit, goggles, towel

The list goes on, but I'd argue a lot of those DO require extra things (to do well or "right" at least).

Sure, but that's all stuff that would fit in Mr. Sivers' sparse apartment or suitcase.

If you classify 'clothing' and 'shoes' as extra things then sure. Having clothes, some mugs, and a laptop allows him to do anything on that list except penmanship. (And swimming if you don't want to just swim naked)

>but for most people in first-world countries: Running: Specialized shoes and gear (...) Penmanship: Specialized quills and ink

"Most people" in first world countries hardly ever run.

The official statistics I've seen put "joggers and runners" as 17-18% of the US population, and their definition includes all the "people who went jogging or running within the last 12 months in the United States" -- so in reality, much much less, especially after school/college age. This makes those irrelevant for the 80% and more. In most first world countries, which don't share the US obsession with jogging, that's substantially less.

As for "Penmanship, quills and ink", that's not even a thing for the overwhelming majority of the population. At least not since 1950.

And "making electronica"? I happen to do that, but I can count on one hand the number of people I know who even know what Roland or Ableton are (apart from collaborators etc).

So, I'd hardly call this list representative -- if it said "urban hipster" maybe, but the "for most people" qualifier is totally bogus.

To clarify, when I say "most people", I mean, "most people who are XXers" (where XX is runners, calligraphers, music-makers, etc.). Example: while "most people" don't do penmanship (and don't need the tools of trade, obviously), "most people" who do penmanship will have specialized "gear". That's my point: to have a hobby that's more than a passing interest, "most people" will acquire "stuff" that is critical to that hobby.

(Aside: very sad statistic on U.S. runners.)

In this case, it makes sense.

Though one could argue (given the clarification you've made) that said XXers could also embrace a minimalist aesthetic.

E.g. electronica makers: do everything in the box, or with very few pieces of kit (minimal gear). Penmanship: just use a couple of really good pens and some select stationary. Etc -- and of course they can keep the "minimal stuff" in all other non XX areas of their lives.

The difference between those hobbies and the ones 0xffff2 mentioned is these are (most of, not all) hobbies where you consume, whereas his are hobbies where he creates.

Are the two so easy to distinguish? I'd say most of the things I listed aren't easily classifiable as either consuming or producing... and many of them are obviously productive.

To take just two examples to add to my list above:

Tea drinker -> Three different tea sets, which get used variously depending on what kind of tea I am drinking.

baker -> An entire kitchen full of tools.

Perhaps I'm taking the article too literally, but if he really only has the things that came with his apartment, so clothes, a laptop, and headphones, he really can't do most of the things on your list, at least not at any kind of level beyond the most casual.

I have some nice tea things too, but when I'm travelling, I make tea with whatever's handy. The thing I mostly use for brewing is a gaiwan, which is basically just a cup with a lid, and that's very easy to substitute. And I used to bake quite a lot of bread using nothing but a couple of mixing bowls and an oven.

So not to be argumentative or anything, but beyond clothes and a pair of swim shorts, the only things you need to do everything on my list, and that wouldn't be found in a typical furnished home, are: a decent pen, a deck of cards, and some oranges...

To expand on baking, you're going to need a huge variety of pots, pans, baking sheets, pie pans, cake containers, cupcake trays, mixing bowls, a stand mixer, a handheld mixer, rolling pins, ingredients, etc. I know because my sister is really into baking and she has all of that stuff and more; a whole kitchen full. By the time you're all said and done you're in for over $1,000, and a bunch of cupboards are full.

The same applies to a bunch of the rest of hobbies that you mentioned. If you only care about doing something superficially, then sure, you don't need equipment. But to do something well? For example, making good podcasts requires a full setup of audio engineering equipment -- mics, mic stands, various digital audio equipment that plugs into a computer, etc. Similar for running; the people I know that are really into it have all sorts of shoes, GPS running watches, entire wardrobes of running gear (which you NEED to prevent chafing), reflective clothing, heart rate monitors, travel gear to bring with you when traveling for races; the list goes on.

I've been into a bunch of hobbies in my life and every single one ended up accumulating significant amounts of gear. Even just being into programming or gaming, I've ended up with various mechanical keyboards, mice, computers, computer parts, displays, and more.

My wife is really into cooking and baking and she has some of those things and that is it. Almost nothing that isn't in every kitchen. I can't speak to running but I'm into biking, I know people with all kinds of gear, but I get by just fine with my dad's bike from the 60s and my day clothes. Sure I could go faster with different clothes and an expensive bike, but the part about biking I enjoy has nothing to do with how fast money can buy me, but the places I see, the routes I find, the exercise I get, etc. Some hobbies really do require more gear, but in every hobby you'll find a spectrum of a minimum amount of gear people feel they need or want.

Also you mention doing a hobby "well." There is a big difference between competitive bike racing and biking an hour every day for fun and exercise. Is someone who is into competitive bike racing doing their hobby "well"? More so than someone who doesn't have the gear and wouldn't win the race?

I'd like to emphasize that I have absolutely nothing against gear.

But I'm a little surprised that people continue to insist that no, one really needs lots of stuff.

It's just not true that you need a huge variety of stuff for over $1,000 to bake bread. Think about it. The history of bread goes back thirty thousand years. You don't need a cupcake tray. You don't even need a baguette pan to make decent baguettes. I'm not making this up: I baked bread nearly every day for months using nothing special.

With podcasts, I again resist the idea that to go beyond "superficial" you need anything except a phone. I've recorded audio on my iPhone lots of times. In a quiet room, it works fine. There are plenty of very serious podcasts with people who participate by phone, and that's just fine.

Again with running. Nope, you don't need that stuff. How did people run a hundred thousand years ago? It's a fundamental bodily function. I have a pair of Merrell Trail Gloves that I also use as walking shoes in the summer, and they're just fine for running, and no other equipment is necessary at all.

I program just fine with just a laptop.

Again—it's all just preference and availability. But you can't say that everyone needs this stuff, because they don't. And I resist the notion because I think it can prevent people from getting started with the stuff they actually have.

Jaimie[1] said something a while back when he was getting started on constructing his fiberglass boats by hand... "'Dude, why don't you have any tools? Why don't you just go get the right stuff?' To which I respond: 'I am the right stuff!'" I don't know how to break people from the delusion that you need so much stuff to do anything, other than perhaps watching other people do things with far less stuff...

My biggest hobby these days is gaming on my PC, it's incredibly cheap and stuff-minimal compared to other hobbies like skiing. I'm using a moderately powerful PC build from 2009 and updated my GPU a few years ago, still runs a lot of or even most new games on high settings. Occasionally I appreciate a good hike, and my brother got me a nice backpack and poles last year that I haven't used yet... because I've been hiking since I was a kid with no equipment but a bottle of water and maybe some bars (I do have hiking boots but I've gone hiking in my regular tennis shoes too) so I've forgotten it the last few times I've gone out. It's become just functionally another item in my stuff that I don't actually need, though when I do eventually remember it I'm sure it'll be convenient. Just like my external monitor for my work laptop is convenient, but not necessary. And so on.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTUxoNSiUQA

Hey, thanks, that's fun to watch, the way he talks out loud about what he's thinking about trying and stuff. "I wonder what shape this piece of roofing metal would make if I just bent it like this... hmm, let's see..."

I'm inclined to want to do things with less stuff rather than more stuff. Sure, I wouldn't mind a villa full of studio equipment and musical instruments, but I also love to make music with just a ukulele and my voice—that's good practice, too. And you don't even need the uke. These guys are doing pretty well:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4SMJXf0jvRc

Maybe I'll sound pretentious but I like to make programs kind of the way that guy makes boats. Look at the fundamental tools available, see how to glue things together in the most efficient way. Use the aspiration to stay minimal as a source of inspiration and a way to get past analysis paralysis.

Skiing doesn't take all that much stuff. Except for the skis, it can probably fit in a modest duffel, and skis are easy to stash.

You don't need $1k to bake bread, but I think your parent is objecting to how much you are taking for granted. You didn't just use mixing bowls, you also used a sponge, dish soap, measuring cups, measuring spoons, a couple ingredients, bowls, fork/spoon/whisk, some kind of pan or tray... If we believe the author, he has none of those things.

The post says he's in a furnished home with an unspecified amount of kitchenware. That's what I'm taking for granted. You can easily make a loaf of bread with exactly these items: flour, water, salt, yeast, a bowl, your hands, an oven, a sheet pan. Amounts can be eyeballed, and you knead and add flour or water as needed. Yeah, dish soap is nice to have, but who is imagining that Mr. Sivers is trying to live without dish soap?

Your original post says, 'baking' and 'running' with no context. People's ideas of seemingly simple tasks evolves as they get into it.

If you are just baking bread sure, you could do that with minimal equipment. But if you want to bake a cake, you need a cake tin, scales etc. If you wanted a really fancy cake...

If you want to run around the park, sure, pair of sneakers. I know ultra marathoners. When they enter a race they are given a checklist that they must have on race day. They have all sorts of gear to help them train. Not to mention the travel gear they need to get to the location their race is in.

You really don't need a cake tin to make a cake. A sauce pan can actually be really convenient due to the handle, the release thing is generally useful, but you can also use a liner.

I have watched a professional baker make several high end cakes and she used very few specialized tools. The icing/Pastry bag was really the only non standard cooking item.

Remember, people want to sell you stuff. That does not make stuff necessary.

> but you can also use a liner.

Now your box of liners consumes the space that your cake tin would, and you haven't changed anything.

Unless you buy a liner as part of the ingredient list and toss it when your done. Sure, it's less than optimal if your making a lot of cakes, but if you just make 1 or 2 per year for birthdays then it's really not a big deal.

Well, that's part of why I'm personally not interested in making fancy cakes or running ultra marathons. My comment was a reply to someone who could not imagine a fulfilling life without a bunch of equipment, and who said "I actually like doing things", as if that necessarily means acquiring special equipment... Apparently it's controversial that many fulfilling activities can be done with very little material help?

> It's just not true that you need a huge variety of stuff for over $1,000 to bake bread. Think about it. The history of bread goes back thirty thousand years.

"You don't need a guitar to make music, because people once made music by banging two sticks together". I mean, the GP even specifically mentioned pie tins, cake containers, cupcake trays, and you retort with "baking is nothing but bread"? "You don't need stuff, because a simplified subset of what you want to do can be done without stuff"? Hell, you don't even need a hammer to drive a nail, but it's a lot more efficient if you have one.

It's doubly weird that you invoke how people ran 100k years ago, and then say "all you need are shoes". Nope - it's "no footwear". It's perfectly doable - I had an anarchist friend who spent several years without wearing shoes (excluding when he had to - boots for protection when motorcycle riding). You should ditch the shoes in your example, for both running and walking, as shoes are just as unnecessary to human locomotion as $1k of kitchenware is to baking. There's even a subgenre of running that is specifically about no shoes; I'm not aware of a subgenre of baking that is specifically about making cakes with no mixer.

Sigh. I mentioned baking as a possible hobby that doesn't require a lot of stuff beyond what's typically available in a kitchen. "But cupcakes" doesn't invalidate that. Who needs cupcakes? Anyway, I'm out of this discussion. Sorry for this whole thread. Whatever.

I do go barefoot a lot when it's warm enough. Running, too. So, yeah, if the climate allows, you don't even need shoes. How nice!

Sure, no one truly needs anything, but having the right tools can make a huge difference between merely being able to do something, and doing that something well. I think we all can understand the nerd impulse to really want to get into something, learn as much about it as possible, and do it well. Having the right tools can easily be the difference between a given hobby being rewarding or frustrating, because you can't yield the results you want, or because you don't have the right tool to make a really tedious part of the process easier.

Some of the more esoteric hobbies I've gotten into have included amateur telescope making, ham radio, long-range precision reloading, and shed construction, all of which are very tool-dependent. The more and better tools you have, the more capable you are in the hobby, the better your results, and the more satisfying it is. Sure, some hobbies are more amenable to getting farther along in them with having less stuff, but that doesn't help you if you end up interested in something that is tool-dependent.

Agreed. All I'm saying is that there are plenty of hobbies that don't require many tools, and that even hobbies that require some stuff can be done fruitfully and fulfillingly with just the minimum. Some people enjoy that kind of minimalism, some people don't. Lots of people have to make do because they can't afford equipment, but they can still find fulfilment in life.

I'm in a position similar to Sivers, in that I don't have a permanent home, and I'm unlikely to find one in the near future. Like him I'm in a furnished apartment with barely any stuff of my own save for clothes, a laptop, a phone, a kindle, and a handful of other belongings. Some days I really yearn for a place of my own, and the things I could have in there...

But when I read someone saying they cannot wrap their head around how anyone could be fulfilled with living like Sivers... I feel obliged to respond. This is how my life is, and it's fine, I'm quite happy.

I play music with my friends in a rental rehearsal space, I meditate, I take photos with my phone, I code on my laptop, I discuss things, I read, all those things I listed. It's not some awful deprived life of poverty just because I don't have several bags of camera equipment!

This is a group of predominantly young computer-people. They are not going to be wise to depreciation or the effects of old age.

If I buy a new video card, when I open the box its resale value instantly drops perhaps 50% of its price, and in perhaps two years its resale value is "you're gonna have to pay me to recycle that for you...". Money spent on computer hardware in 1981 dropped in value to $0 if not less by, perhaps, 1983. The experience is worthless, or negative worth, on your resume (trust me on that one) If you're a computer-person, money spent is money wasted, in the long run.

28 years ago I got a nice full set of fractional/number/letter drills in a Huot case. Instantly when I opened the package its value dropped from whatever it was sold for, to $10 at a garage sale. I get 28 years of use out of it, some are getting a little shorter from resharpening or have been replaced, and I could still get $10 at a garage sale. If I sold my drill bits to raise $10 today, I'd just have to rebuy them again in a month or two at full list price and eat the substantial depreciation a second time. Its not like my world is going to run out of things to make holes thru. I'm not wealthy enough to buy the same tools over and over; likewise I'm not wealthy enough to buy cheap tools that fall apart such that I have to buy them over and over. I'm not wealthy enough to rent things I use on a regular basis. Actually I am wealthy enough now, but character traits like this are exactly the cause of why I'm wealthy enough now. Minimization of total overall lifetime system cost. Nobody ever got rich by spending more money than is necessary.

Now multiply the set of drill bits by every other capital good / tool I own, and in some capital intensive hobbies it adds up. And there's really nothing wrong with that. That's how you end up with (old) carpenters having $30K shops like my accountant neighbor, or (old) bakers with $1K of gear, (old) ham radio operators with $10K radio stations... At least with some hobbies, not making dumb decisions adds up over time.

THats the thing. You don't 'need' all these things. Yes if you want to do some competitive baking you're gonna want all the specialized tools but to it's not a necessity.

Personally I try to think of my tools as investment, if I don't use it professionally I don't spend too much on it.

It's interesting to take a view that contrasts with Sivers' article and most of us on HN -- that of someone on the edge of homelessness. I remember reading Barbara Ehrenreich's Nickel and Dimed and thinking about cooking and baking. When she was living in a motel room rented by the week, it was hard to cook healthy food because she didn't have the budget to buy a pan, a pot, a spatula, some silverware, a mixing bowl, etc. Besides the budget, there was the problem of storing them in a precarious living situation. They're annoying to schlep.

To start off my minimalist college years, my mother brought me to the local Goodwill where I bought one fork, one knife, one spoon, one bowl, etc. Had to add chopsticks to get a really complete eating set, but these got me off to a good start. Even this minimalist set (chopsticks, knife, spoon, bowl, wooden mixing spoon, pot) require space, and they don't allow you to bake cookies (need a baking sheet!). I was nowhere near homeless though I could fit all my belongings into one room as wide as the length of a twin bed.

Sivers knows that if he wants to make pastries, he can buy or borrow pastry-making equipment -- just as I can. So he doesn't need to keep it around. Those with little by necessity rather than choice don't have that confidence.

Not wanting stuff is for people who have access the stuff they need.

A lot of that stuff can be compact if you don't get focused on 'stuff.' Let's assume you have clothing, computer, and

aka all hiking/ backpacking gear for a world tour can easily fit into a single backpack or fill a trailer.

Photography, 1 decent camera is really enough.

A single bike is actually fairly small. Start getting into road bikes, touring bikes, etc and they start taking up a lot of space.

DIY can take endless space, but you can get far with a single tool box. 'extra' is often more about saving time than really necessary.

PS: I good rule of thumb is if you have not used it in 2 years it's wasting space. But, IMO even better is if you have used it less than 3 times in a year it's fluff.

"Photography, 1 decent camera is really enough."

If only. I have several lenses for a variety of situations. A lighting rig for indoor shoots which includes bounces, tripods, umbrellas, cords and rigging. Then there's the tripod, plus a back pack for the smaller stuff. Not to mention backdrop equipment.

There's a big difference between casual hobby and serious hobby.

Your confusing flexibility with necessity. You can get really serious about say photographing bugs with a single camera. It's not going to be as widely useful, but trying to do everything is a great way to fail.

Consider, nobody says you need an electron microscope to get serious about photography, but they can take some amazing photos even without using photons...

You're confusing your idea of what a photographer does with "photography" as a subject. Photography is an incredibly diverse hobby and profession. Yes, it is possible to only buy one small subset of equipment that lets you photograph a single very specific things well, but I've never met a photographer with such narrow interests.

Even professional photographers that only do a specific kind of photography professional nearly always have amateur interests in other photographic subjects that require different gear.

Far from it, you can also have video games as a hobby and use a 5 year old laptop. A teen that can only afford one camera is not necessarily less into there hobby.

I have even known someone to go the other way and sell off there kit for a point and shoot. They where into candid photos so always having a camera was more important than fiddling with a massive beast.

Granted, camera's are cheap to most of the HN crowd, even blowing 30k over 20 years is just not a big deal. But, just because gear is 'cheap' and 'better' does not make it necessary.

From the equipment list provided, it sounds like portraiture is the goal--not photographing bugs. I don't see where it is implied that the poster is trying to boil the ocean with regard to their photographic pursuits.

Images from electron microscopes aren't photos. They're micrographs.

A single lens camera is as limiting as only owning one size of screwdriver, or one knife.

>Photography, 1 decent camera is really enough.

Bahahahahaahhahahah... no.

1 decent camera is enough if you are not a photographer, just a person who likes taking pictures.

As a very amateur photographer, I do in fact only own one camera. The rest of the two bags is accessories for that one camera and several lenses, each of which serve a unique and useful purpose. Good camera equipment is dammed expensive. If I could buy less of it and still do everything I want to do, you better believe I would! I don't even do very complicated photography. I shoot exclusively outdoors in relatively bright surroundings. There is a whole other realm of lighting equipment that I haven't even entered into yet.

And just for some perspective, it is not at all unusual for professional photographers to carry two cameras at the same time. (With different lenses, since it takes several seconds to swap a lens.)

And that doesn't get into specialty equipment like medium/full format.

My two small bags of equipment is nothing compared to the amount of gear that an experience professional photographer is likely to acquire over the course of a decade or two.

A lot of these things could be borrowed for the occasion, or you could go to a co-working space that has the right tools. But granted, sometimes it is more convenient to own certain things.

It's not for everyone. But I doubt you can do all these hobbies in a single day or even week. Many can be rented or bought in smaller "travel" versions, however.

(Reminds me of an aside, in that every single sport has very specialized gear (on purpose) now. You can't be caught dead wearing basketball shorts when cycling, even though they are just fine, outside the tour de france.)

But still, if you've got a big house there's no immediate need. It's when you have to move that you'll wish for less.

These guys are interesting, but may only be in Los Angeles: http://www.getfunship.com/

They deliver & pick up activity-specific gear. As others have said, not sure if there is enough of a market for it, but access code "nextdoor" if you want to give it a try

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