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Comment by jdietrich | Hacker News Reader

As with any smartphone product being marketed for use in wilderness environments, a note of caution is necessary.

Rescue services have seen an increasing number of life-threatening situations caused by the unwise use of smartphones. Phones aren't sufficiently rugged and often lack user-replaceable batteries, so cannot be relied upon as a navigation tool or as a means of emergency communication.

If you're considering buying a product like this, think again. An FRS radio and a Garmin Etrex cost about the same, but are vastly better suited to the task. They are drop resistant, waterproof and will run on ordinary AA batteries.

If you are in a remote area, always carry a magnetic compass and paper map and ensure that you have the skills required to use them. Consider carrying distress flares, a signal mirror or a SPOT beacon.

https://www.thebmc.co.uk/smartphone-apps-handle-with-care

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-3380...

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I agree it's foolish to do a dangerous trip with just one navigation method. But that doesn't mean your phone isn't a good tool, or that we'd have less emergencies if they didn't exist.

I develop an app called Gaia GPS, which a vast array of backpackers, wildland firefighters, and SAR use as a tool to navigate in the woods. They use battery packs and rugged/insulating cases with their iPhone and Android devices to make them durable and long-lasting.

Even if you are a master orienteer who knows how to use a compass and a map with great skill, there are situations where you will be safer to have a GPS along too (either a smartphone or standalone unit). Situations like I have been in, where there is so much snow coming down, that you can't see the trail you're following or cutting, much less peaks or other landmarks.

In some situations, map skills and reckoning may get you home, but seeing yourself clearly marked on a map will make you safer too. People shouldn't fear GPS devices or phones as tools for survival and navigation.

p.s. This comment is FUD and based on anecdotes from two articles about Scotland.

I heart Gaia GPS, thanks. I find the interface a bit confusing, but that's a tough problem to solve given a large feature set and a small touch-only UI.

Thanks, that's a fair criticism and a kind allowance.

I think you'll see the UI improved greatly this year... as of last Monday, we have 7 full-timers working on Gaia GPS, and we're looking for a designer to help with the UX right now. Things really blossomed in 2015, and 2016 will see more engineering work on Gaia GPS than any other year.

I think my main problem is that I've never used GPS hardware or software, so I have a distinct lack of familiarity with the standard concepts, making the learning curve that much steeper.

Fortunately, I really don't need much. Primarily recording (off)road trips in the Jeep, and downloading maps in advance of excursions where I suspect cellular data will be flaky.

Anyway, thanks again, and good luck!

I think Gaia is coming out with an integration with goTenna soon via their SDK, so that would be awesome!

I think calling that comment "FUD" is a bit harsh - there is no doubt that casual users relying exclusively on smartphones for navigation without the ability to fall back on a traditional map and compass is a real problem. I've seen plenty of reports of this in the UK and seen warnings about it in the Alps.

"The root cause of getting lost is usually a lack of adequate navigation skills, no matter what technology is being used. In many cases, walkers do not have the skills to read a map or navigate effectively. Some mistakenly think that carrying a Smartphone or gps means that they do not need these skills, which is a recipe for disaster, for all the reasons given above."

http://www.mcofs.org.uk/navigation-gpsandsmartphones.asp

It is hardly FUD. If you want more horror stories involving wilderness and technical failure, I can set you up with as many as you like. There have been hundreds of cases people suffering in various colorful ways due to reliance on cell phones, GPS, etc. which were not reliable in their chosen environment.

From my perspective, it is about redundancy and flexibility within my environmental constraints. I usually just have my cell phone with me, even when I'm doing some potentially sketchy things. That's because if I break/lose battery/lose my phone, there are always tons more around me.

When that isn't true, I'll usually have at least a handheld ham with spare batteries, a list of repeaters around where I'll be, and GPS andd/or paper maps (along with other things of use when one is remote).

Oh, my phone, too, 'cause it is fun and handy. I just don't trust my life to consumer-grade tools built for the home and office that can't even get wet or survive a small drop.

If you are not familiar with outdoors adventuring (and even if you are), one important exercise is to think through your gear, asking yourself how you get by without each piece. What do you do if your tent poles break? Two flat tires or a blown engine? Something gets your food? Your phone (meaning comms and maps, for the purposes we're discussing) breaks or your spare battery shorts?

A bit off topic but the first thing I thought of when reading parent's comment was "What about Gaia GPS?". Thank you for that app/service! I really dig it. I've used it in Berkeley and all over the South Island of New Zealand and its been invaluable.

Thank you for the Gaia GPS! I used it on iPhone last year in my solo Carpathians tour and it worked great.

The initial maps download at home took a really long time, but I just put a phone on charger and allowed it to take time.

I love how it allows me to quickly create waypoints, so I marked my track manually every hour instead of using automated tracking. This helped a lot to conserve the battery life.

+1 on everything you just said. A dedicated radio (FRS, GMRS, MURS, or amateur VHF) -- along with GPS and other survival gear -- is essential in the backcountry. Carry a cell phone, but don't rely on it. I see folks doing that far too often.

That said: Having just done some research on distress beacons, I just want to point out that there's some better options than SPOT beacons out there.

The problem with SPOT is that they're entirely reliant on GPS and having a clear view of the southern sky. If either of those aren't met, your SOS message might not go through properly. Since folks often buy these for life-and-death situations, this is a problem.

I'd recommend an actual 406 MHz PLB (personal locator beacon). The big benefit is that these are triply redundant: GPS via geostationary satellites, doppler shift triangulation via low-earth orbit satellites, and old-fashioned direction finding on the 121.5 aircraft distress frequency.

As an added bonus, since the PLB network is run by an international government organization (COSPAS-SARSAT), there's no subscription fees either. It would be unfortunate if you didn't get rescued because you forgot to pay a bill.

The only downside is that you don't get breadcrumbs or non-emergency text messaging. I think SPOT (and the Iridium-based InReach devices -- which seem to have better coverage btw) make great satellite communicators for this purpose. I just don't think they're good emergency beacon replacements.

+1 on the PLB. My family always carries one while out on hiking/climbing/backcountry skiing trips.

Your comment reminded me of a video I saw on Youtube which highlights the utility of having a reliable beacon for rescue services to track your location:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTiGU5TiYCE

They were flying a Cessna 170B into a remote part of Alaska in August 1989 when they encountered an engine failure. They survived, and the plane was recovered shortly thereafter (performing an engine swap in the field no less!), but I think it illustrates pretty well the sorts of circumstances where you want something reliable for search and rescue teams to follow. (The video and its description are light on details regarding the type of device used.)

Not sure about the states but most places require aircraft / boats to have locator beacons (bigger versions of PLB's.)

A handheld 406 plb like the ocean signal "rescueME" plb is essentially the same thing afaik.

I'm fairly certain it's the same here in the US. However, being as the video was from August 1989, I'm not sure what the regulations were. For instance, it wasn't until ASA flight 2311's crash in 1991 [1] when the regulations were changed to require CVRs and FDRs on small commuter aircraft, and general aviation has AFAIK traditionally lagged a bit behind. This may be one area where it hasn't.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_Southeast_Airlines_Fl...

(Edited to fix the date, which I typoed. I just watched this on an episode of Mayday, which did bit of a disservice to the NTSB and Embraer tests.)

From the video, it looks like they activated the aircraft's ELT, which is the aircraft version of a PLB. Same system, just integrated into the aircraft and designed to automatically activate in a crash.

At the time that video was recorded (1989), ELTs were analog-only... nowhere near as accurate, and very prone to false alarms.

The new 406 MHz digital beacons are much more accurate. :)

Good point! Though, for being two decades and some change prior, being "only" 5 miles off isn't awful. It's not great either but certainly better than the alternative.

In this case, I'd assume they activated it manually since it wasn't a crash (nor was there an accident report on it that I could find)?

It even mentions that at the end of the video.

They were looking 5 miles away around a glacier!

Also take orienteering class if you want to be an outdoorsy person. I took it and it was a blast. Now looking to join a local club and get into orienteering competitions.

Orienteering was mandatory in my school when I was a teenager. Interesting memories... :)

Bittersweet, but mostly bitter?

Same here. Teacher and two in my class competed on national level, but I never caught the bug although I was happy to learn to use maps and compass as it is useful (and was essential back then) for long hikes.

Which school was this? I've never heard of such a requirement outside of say, Scouts or the military.

Along with basic financials, I inclined to agree that'd be a very good add for required classes.

It was mandatory at my school, as well. We covered basic orienteering, outdoor winter survival, emergency signalling, and avalanche safety.

If I remember right, it was a one- or two-day field trip we took during middle school. Everyone was excited when it was their class's turn to go. (But who doesn't get excited for a field trip?)

Not as comprehensive as what you'd learn in scouts or taking a professional survival class, but it was a good overview. I still remember a lot of it and find the material useful.

This was in South Lake Tahoe CA, so we were already in the mountains. :) Cost wouldn't have been any worse than any other field trip.

I grew up in Chernivtsi, Ukraine. It's a pretty hilly/mountainous region, so competitive orienteering is huge there. I was never really any good at it myself due to being bad at running and especially cross country running, but I enjoyed weekend trips to participate in competitions anyway.

Interesting memories indeed. I took it as part of a special program in 6th grade. We split into two groups and the group I wasn't in found a corpse just off the trail, which cut our orienteering exercise quite short. I got to explain to the school psychologist that "No, I didn't see anything, I wasn't traumatized."

I should go do some more, I'm fairly confident in my map skills but I bet there are some assumptions of mine to knock down.

Beyond orienteering, I think the sport of rogaining would appeal to many here. Not sure how popular it is in the US, but there are bound to be some events people could try - start with a 3-6 hour event and work up to 24 hours. It's addictive.

It's similar to orienteering but team-based, everyone leaves en masse, and control points can be reached in any order within a fixed amount of time. This means you can be competitive by walking and relying on compass smarts rather than having to be able to run for hours on end.

This looks like a calendar of US rogaining events: http://www.us.orienteering.org/orienteers/rogaines/events

I got into it a year or two ago here in Australia and have now competed in a state and national event plus others. Entered into the world champs in July, though we will be aiming mostly to not come last!

It looks like this product is less aimed at being relied on when you're in a survival situation, and more about extending the benefits of your cell phone when you're out of range. For example, in Yosemite Valley, there is no cell service, but there are mobs of people everywhere. This tool would be nice to get some auxiliary benefits of cell phones when hiking with your family.

One of the things I loved about my MiniDisc player is that it runs on ordinary battery.

I'm pretty sure that many of your concerns could be alleviated with a lifeproof case (rugged and waterproof), the maps.me app (offline maps for iPhone, also supports KMZ hiking trails), and a few 10,000 mAh USB batteries. I use one which typically keeps my phone charged for a few days, with a lot of use.

This is great for relatively small hikes. But if you're going off on a major expedition, then sure, you should probably take the professional radio and Garmin gear, and all the other survival gear people normally bring.

But if you've already got the lifeproof case and extra USB batteries, I think this Beartooth device looks pretty useful.

But one major benefit of Beartooth is that it allows for asynchronous communication, while traditional radios don't. That aspect could turn communication in remote areas from centering around crucial information only (since everything is immediate) to something closer to traditional casual text messaging. That's a big plus, and it makes a Beartooth a nice complement to traditional gear rather than a replacement for it.

I have absolutely no affiliation with Beartooth, nor do I own one. But I have gone on long hiking and canoe trips in rural areas and could see a Beartooth as a nice addition.

When it comes to emergencies, SPOT got nothing on Resqlinq.

The latter has 5 years shelf life, no subscription fees, communicates distress signal with GPS coordinates to a much larger array of low orbit Search and Resque satellites(so works better in canyons), if GPS fails to acquire position (again in a canyon) the satellites can also figure out an approximate position using Doppler effect and trickery with multiple receivers, has a homing beacon for S&R aircrafts, has a strobe light, is buyoant and water-sealed.

> An FRS radio and a Garmin Etrex cost about the same, but are vastly better suited to the task.

That's what I was about to post...like why am I paying for a WHOLE NEW DEVICE?

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