Ask YC: Mid-sized, livable, hacker-friendly towns? | Hacker News Reader

Ask YC: Mid-sized, livable, hacker-friendly towns?

27 pointsdavidw102 comments

My wife and I are pretty sure that we're not going to stay here in Innsbruck after this summer (not positive yet, but it's likely).

So... we're starting to think about "where?!". We have a child on the way, and I've "done my time" in the bay area. I'd rather have a smaller chance at making a successful startup than deal with that rat-race again.

Our preference is for somewhere livable, with a decent climate, "mid-sized" (say 100K-500K), with a university, and some topography (dead flat places need not apply:-).

How's Boulder, Colorado? Santa Fe, NM? Boulder's sort of up there on my list. I like Southern Oregon a lot too (Ashland), but it doesn't offer much in the way of job opportunities. My wife is in biotech, so someplace that offers something for her is high priority too (once again, the bay area would be good, but... not with a kid, and having to drive everywhere).

Anyone got a favorite mid-sized town that might not easily pop up on the radar, that more or less fits the bill?

Incidentally, this doesn't have to be in the US. We would be in Padova, Italy if everything else were equal, but the political and economic situation in Italy is not pretty right now. A romance language would probably be easier to deal with (indeed, I'm looking at an opportunity in Portugal).

Thanks guys, Dave

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I live in Austin, TX and find its size to be manageable, although it is growing fast. Is that too large for you? It has the University of Texas, its in the 'Hill Country', and has a lot of smart and creative folks. I don't have a car and ride nothing but the Capital Metro bus. The average age is pretty young here, so there are a lot of parties and such, which is a plus for some but minus for others. You will like it if you are into: lots of coffee shops with wireless access, live music (South By Southwest is just around the corner, and there are concerts all the time), lots of bars, the Texas Longhorns, attractive people, and some yuppie/hippie types. Lots of people hang out at Zilker Park (where the Austin City Limits Music Festival is) and run around Town Lake.

Thanks for the info, I'm city shopping right now and I'm planning to check out Austin at SXSW. Any Austin tips for me? I try to avoid having a car at all costs, so it's good to know you've found that feasible.

Stay near 6th street!

This probably is moving away from what davidw was asking, but here's my quick guide to Austin.

The 6th street advice depends on who you are. If you are looking for live music, definitely 6th St. and the clubs on Red River. If you want cheaper drinks (like $1 Rum and Cokes of low quality), want to party with more of college-age crowd, are single and looking for attractive women, you will be very happy there. Very little work gets done on 6th St (unless you work in one of the bank buildings). Once the 6th st. crowd graduates, they hang out in the Warehouse District, which is around 4th and Colorado/Lavaca. This is where you go if you want more like a $4-5 drink or if you enjoy sipping Lattes. Less live music stuff. More cafes. I work out of a couple coffee shops over there, and also work out of a neighborhood called Hyde Park (which is not downtown). Austin is growing fast. There are many condos being built in the downtown area, particularly in the area that is now being called the "2nd Street District". Hyde Park is a cool little neighborhood if you don't want to hang out downtown. Houses are older, smaller, and more expensive there. When I say expensive, I mean Texas expensive, not California expensive.

I'll be at SXSW if anyone wants to meet up. I'll be attending the SXSW interactive and as many of the live music shows that I can fit in. The full list of over 1000 bands was released today and can be viewed at http://2008.sxsw.com/music/festival/alphalist/. Yes, all of them in one week.

For some funky shops and a cool place to visit in the day it'd be worth stopping by the South Congress area.

For live music places, I recommend Stubb's, Emo's, and The Parish Room (for more Indie Rock stuff), Elephant Room (for Jazz), Mohawk, and Antone's.

For a cool neighborhood pub with a jillion beers that you probably wouldn't run into normally, go to http://www.draughthouse.com/. Other places with a large beer selection where you can hear yourself talk are The Ginger Man and Opal Divine's.

Some magazine voted Alamo Drafthouse the best movie theater in the country. It's one of those theaters where you order a beer and food while you watch the movie, so I enjoy it more for a humorous movie. Some other magazine voted Book People the best bookstore in the country.

For good coffee places to use free wifi, go to Austin Java (Downtown), Halcyon (Downtown), Epoch (Hyde Park), Quack's (Hyde Park), Flightpath (Hyde Park), The Hideout (Downtown), Metro (by UT Campus), JP's Java (near UT campus), Little City (Downtown), or Spiderhouse (near UT campus).

Barton Springs and Zilker Park is where a lot of people go for outdoors stuff like running, walking dogs, frisbee golf, and swimming.

Shop at HEB for a big cheap grocery store. Go to Whole Foods or Central Market if you want to stock up on organic expensive stuff.

If you are rich and want to buy some designer sunglasses, go to the Domain or the 2nd St. District. If you are an indie/emo kid, go to SpiderHouse, Beauty Bar, or....Emo's. If you are a metalhead or goth type, there are some places on Red River for you.

For a really big delicious burger or some tasty wings, visit Casino El Camino on 6th. If you want some cheap gigantic breakfast tacos, go to Juan in a Million. For an open-faced burger with a mound of cheese fries piled on top, go to Hyde Park Grill. For a wine bar, go to Vino Vino.

A car is not very important if you know the Capital Metro bus routes and stay central, which is where most of the interesting stuff is anyway.

If you like bumming around a college campus, hang out around UT-Austin, which is between 26th and 21st st. Many people will be wearing an ugly burnt orange color, similar to the orange at the top of this web page.

I moved to Austin this past August and am really enjoying it. Very friendly, active city with a large technology sector

larry's list covers the highlights much better than I could, although he unconscionably omitted a barbecue guide. Here's my list 1 - Salt Lick 2 - Rudy's 3 - Ironworks 4 - Stubb's

Salt Lick and Rudy's are both a little outside the city, but definitely worth the trip if you're renting a car

Other than that, I'd be sure to see the UT campus, downtown, and Town Lake

Agree with all of the above. Cool to see another Austinite here.

Austin has all the ingredients to be a great place for startups, with maybe the exception of a good investor climate. VC money seems dried up except for Austin Ventures, and the angels are conservative by SV standards. But regardless, its just about my favorite place.

Please shoot me an email if you'd ever like to chat startups (email in my profile)

Agreed. However, you haven't mentioned the BEST "feature" of Austin. We have an absolutely unique freakin jungle within 6 miles of downtown called "Greenbelt" where you can do all kinds of crazy things on your mountain bike, or swim with your dog in one of those natural pools or just walk for miles. Also you can rent a boat and have fun on lake Travis, where my favorite thing to do (although dangerous) is to jump off the rocks. Those things are why Austin is 1st or 2nd fittest city in the nation and this is why I don't want to move to the Valley. We have lots of "Valley refugees" here, who moved because of cost of living and "lack of culture".

However, if "good hacker community", and especially start-up community, is priority #1, I'd stay around SF Bay Area. Austin has only one traditional "software VC" and they're not nearly as open minded and progressive as numerous VCs in the Valley.

I lived in Austin 1996-97 and I loved it. Swimming in Barton Springs pool is one of my favorite things to do.

However, if you have a problem with heat, be warned. In the summer you expect 100 degrees every day. I like the heat, but it can be oppressive.

All the good things that other people are saying are accurate.

You might want to consider Montreal, Quebec. It's a very lively city. It's more populated than what you're asking for (1.6M), but it has 4 universities, and the city itself is on a mountain (mount royal, not a very big mountain), which is itself on an island (the island of montreal).

You can e-mail me if you want to know more about this city. iratsu at gmail dot com

Ah, La Belle Province. It's been 5 years since I moved to the US, but I still have to go home for some Poutine - it's just not the same when I make it at home.

Stay away from Santa Fe! I lived there for a few year and it's not hacker friendly. It's a beautiful place, but when I was there there wasn't much of a hacker community. Also, it's expensive there and it's hard to find jobs that pay well outside of Los Alamos and city/state government. If you're white (I'm not), you'll likely encounter racism and you'll likely have a harder time in city/state government than if you weren't. If you're a freelancer, you'll have a hard time finding customers that are willing to pay a decent amount for your services. There's also a large current of snobbery and defensiveness in the culture which is distasteful in general and which doesn't really nurture hackers.

Check out Santa Clarita, CA. It's just shy of 300,000 in terms of population and it's just north of LA (at the 5 and 14 freeway). It is a bit expensive ($400k+ home prices) unless you opt to live on the outskirts of town. You can survive on under $30,000 with a family though, if you have inexpensive tastes and have some self control. It's only about 5mi radius, so everything is pretty close. The city is developing quickly and does have a few tech companies around here, but I have to be honest, the entertainment industry is much larger here. We have a bunch of movies and other things filmed here. But as far as job opportunities for hackers, we do have a somewhat entrepreneurial climate.

The only "Universities" are 2 community colleges: College of the Canyons, and Cal Arts. College of the Canyons is decent though, with about 20,000 students per semester and growing. Under an hour drive to UCLA and USC without traffic, and there's Cal State Northridge too (my school).

Another notable feature, Six Flags, Magic Mountain is here.

And as an added bonus, we are in a valley (surrounded on all sides), and it just snowed on the mountains. It looks beautiful.

Boulder's great - good community of hackers. Startups work together to throw fun events (private hack-a-thons, discussions around new technologies, etc). They've got some great New Tech Meetups, The Boulder Open Coffee Club, etc. Good group of VCs in the area as well.

I love Boulder, but it's not a good place for his wife's career neerds. Other than UC Boulder, there's not much biotech in the area.

Somerville, MA fits the bill pretty well, for sufficiently small values of "decent climate".

I have to agree. As a Mass hacker working for a small software company, the Somerville/Cambridge area is quite nice. Although the climate can be, and I am being as frank as possible, unbearably shitty, it is a nice place.

I actually like the climate. I think it runs in the family: my aunt is moving to Donner Pass (yes, that Donner), voluntarily.

In the past 24 hours we've had... rain, thunderstorm, sleet, hail, and snow. "Unbearably shitty" is an understatement at times...

In about an hour the Grog in Newburyport, MA is going to have a "North Shore Web Geek" meetup. I think we're about an hour north of Somerville.

I lived in Cambridge, MA (Harvard Square in particular) for two years and would say that Somerville, Arlington, and Cambridge are all good places to check out. Boston and the surrounding area has become one of the leading centers for BioTech research, so that would be a big plus for your wife.

I currently live in Providence, RI which is about an hour south of Boston. Smaller hacker community, but at least there is one and its not to far from Boston either. We also have a growing BioTech industry thanks to Brown University. I have a friend that works at EpiVax and loves his job. Might be worth checking out.

Seconding Providence, RI. Though I live in the bay area now, I loved Providence. Lots of smart people for such a small town, and if you really wanted to, you could commute to the biotechs and tech companies on the 128, but as KB says, there's just enough going on in PVD too.

Loved Providence. Beautiful city, great history. Best airport on the Northeastern seaboard.

We moved to California from Providence. The * best * assortment of restaurants in the whole country, as far as I'm concerned. The Boston Globe often says that 9 out of the 10 best restaurants in Boston are in Providence. Good entertainment scene, arts scene, etc...

Downsides: The townies (locals) get a little crusty, and you have to get used to the idea of government == corrupt.

We moved to LA so my wife could try out the film scene, and because my contract work in health care was drying up fast.

The winter's do get kind of long, though. And if you hear people talking about a coming, "Noreestah" go to the store and buy all the bread and milk you can. :)

If you do move to Providence, be sure that you live on the East Side of town. It can be really hard to make friends if you're living anywhere else. The native Rhode Islandics aren't really used to people from anywhere else, and it takes a long time to make any headway in the friends department. The East Side has RISD and Brown, so people on that side of town are a lot friendlier and used to strangers and "ethnic people". (My landlord's phrase, not mine. Ironic because he was very Irish. :D ).

Heck, anywhere in New England is pretty nice, and you can drive from one state to another in less than an hour. It's all pretty close.

Here's a third vote for Providence. I'm moved here a couple of years ago from NYC largely because it has so much potential to be an startup/hacker hub. I'm very involved in two initiatives at the center of the city's info-tech/digital media scene. www.rinexus.com www.providencegeeks.com Feel free to drop a line if you like.

Lived in Davis sq, and I can say it can get pretty boring after a year. Cambridge is nice. Climate sucks. I mean cold is bearable, by i couldn't stand the lack of light. I got winter's blues in there. Locals suck. You will never learn the names of your neighbors. Students everywhere, which gets annoying after a while. Stupid puritanism everywhere. The 24hr store in Davis sq. closes at midnight, b/c the city doesn't want people to work past midnight. Alcohol is heavily regulated. Heck, there even are no happy hours. (they are illegal). and they call themselves liberals? Ah, and racism is rampant. I had a black girlfriend for a while, so I know.

I liked the boat house, in the Charles river, were you could register for $120/year, and learn how to sail. The urban transport is pretty good (better than bay area).

For me it was good for a year or two, and then it ended up being boring. Moved to SF, and my quality of life improved a lot. people are just way much friendlier in here.

edit. there are a lot of biotech jobs around there (in Cambridge mostly). Lot's of tech jobs, but it is mostly big coorporations, and nothing too exiting. Few startups, but no near the number of startups in SF bay area. But housing is cheaper, about %30 cheaper, but still very expensive (third most expensive area, after NYC, and SF). And you can meet lot's of smart people, with masters, phd's, etc. More intellectual than the bay area.

How about Northampton, MA? I've never lived there, but I've been there many times and love the town. UMass and Amherst are right down the street, Boston's only an hour away (depending on traffic), good restaurants, great music scene, plenty of biotech (depending on your willingness to travel).

There's also Middletown, CT and New Haven, CT, both of which I've lived in. Middletown's a neat small city with Wesleyan University in town and a cool small downtown, classic New England. Anywhere in the Connecticut outback is a likely spot for some biotech, Bayer and others are big in the state.

New Haven was really ugly 15 years ago but now it's largely an awesome residential city; you want to live in the "grad ghetto" with all the Yalies. Cheap housing, great restaurants, cool up-and-coming atmosphere. I loved the year I spent there. The downside is schools - if you have kids you should send them to private school.

I don't know about the biotech scene, but I love visiting Portland, ME. Anybody able to speak to that city? Another great medium-sized New England town.

I live in Boston, and I agree that the climate sucks (I keep telling myself that it builds character). Housing prices are outrageous...for anyone who isn't coming from the Bay Area or Manhattan. (If you do move here, rent an apartment and wait for the housing bubble to finish bursting.)

But there are a number of tech companies around, either in Cambridge/Somerville or in the Boston suburbs. The public transportation system is decent and the city is compact enough that a lot of things are within a half-hour drive of one another.

Regarding biotech, I used to work on the Human Genome Project at what is now the Broad Institute (which got spun off from the Whitehead Institute). Novartis rents a floor or two of the building I work in and owns a whole building a block away.

Boston's Museum of Science is a good place to take kids; they have a "Discovery Center" that's specifically oriented towards 0-to-5-year-olds, but my three- and five-year-old have fun at a lot of the other exhibits as well.

The northwest suburbs of Boston may also be a good choice, particularly since his wife is in biotech and they have a kid on the way. There's a large concentration of biotech companies in Bedford & Burlington by the Rt 3/128 interchange.

Boston is interesting in that population density declines pretty sharply as you move away from the city center. So Boston itself has a population of 600k and skyscrapers, Cambridge has 100k and still feels fairly urban, Arlington and Lexington each have about 40k people and feel like large towns, Bedford and Concord have 15k apiece and feel like small towns, and Carlisle has 4k and feels positively rural. I'm on an acre of land in Bedford, with woods in the back, and only 13 miles outside of Boston.

The northwest suburbs also don't lack cultural activities the way many suburbs do. You've got all the historical sites in Lexington, Bedford, and Concord; the Lexington symphony orchestra; community activities; libraries in each town; band concerts; fireworks displays on July 4; etc. I was going to say "Flipside is that you need a car to get to them," but even that's not really true: a bike path connects the town centers of Bedford, Lexington, Arlington, and the Alewife subway station in Cambridge.

Only problem is that property values are sky-high here, though they seem to be going down fast. The house across the street went on the market for a million, but finally sold for $630k six months later. Houses are still going for $1M+ in Concord and Carlisle.

Well, that and the "sufficiently small values of 'decent climate'". The cold & snow isn't as oppressive in more rural settings though; it's quite pretty out now.

Move to Coimbatore, India.

Great climate, natural beauty, five big engineering colleges, low pollution, low living cost ($300/month=great life), many libraries, awesome eateries etc.

Thanks for the heads up. Do you know of some good companies around there?

No I don't. If you have specific interests in mind, I can try to find out through my friends.

I live in Ann Arbor, MI, and I love it there. It's got the University of Michigan. It's economy is dominated by education, high tech, and biotechnology, according to Wikipedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ann_Arbor,_Michigan

According to Forbes, Ann Arbor is the third smartest city in the US, behind Boulder, CO, and Bethesda, MD, but just ahead of Cambridge, MA. http://www.annarborspark.org/about-us/newsroom/ann-arbor-nam...

If you really want a great city to live in, though, especially for kids, Plymouth Township, MI (this is actually where I'm living right now) was rated the 37th Best Place to Live by Money Magazine, in part due to its great school system. http://money.cnn.com/galleries/2007/moneymag/0707/gallery.BP...

Employment Review Magazine rated Ann Arbor the 10th best city in the nation to live and work in June 2002. It also earned the number 10 spot in The Princeton Review ranking of the best college towns in the nation in September 2001. Additionally in 2001, American Style Magazine named Ann Arbor the 22nd best Arts Destination in the nation.

Of course, then again, you've also got sites like these for a good counterpoint. http://www.annarborisoverrated.com/

Oh, and the reason I mentioned Plymouth Township is because it's less than half an hour from Ann Arbor, so you could easily live in Plymouth Township and work in Ann Arbor.

You might consider Raleigh/Durham/Chapel Hill, NC area. I'm in the Bay Area now, but I enjoyed living in "The Triangle" as they call it.

Cost of living is great. There are three large universities in the area: UNC, Duke, and NC State, meaning lots of youngish, educated people.

There's a pretty good geek community. IBM, Cisco, Redhat, and SAS all have large presences in the area, and there is a startup scene (nothing like the Bay Area, but it exists).

When I lived there, we had twice-monthly geek meetups and got great attendance - met some really interesting, fairly diverse, people. The large amount of northern ex-pats mixed with the southern culture made for a pretty cool, laid-back, friendly atmosphere.

And there is biotech in the area as well. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Triangle_%28North_Carolina%... for a start...

Only downside is you'll definitely still need a car to get around. If you're smart and/or lucky you can probably minimize that a bit, though. The Chapel Hill/Carrboro area can be pretty walkable/bikeable.

May I suggest Charlottesville, VA. It's really a great city to live in with a good climate and with UVA there, plenty of things to do. It's only 2 hours from Washington DC and 1 hour from Richmond when you do have a need for the big city (airport, etc...)

Charlottesville is great but may be a little smaller than your target city. It has a little biotech spun off from UVa. The downtown mall is a great little area with a nice pedestrian mall.

I can vouch for other people's vote for Madison, WI. I just moved here a few months ago after a brief stint in Richmond, VA, and a life in (or near) Chicago.

I am really enjoying the vibe of this often forgotten city, and and really impressed with how diverse the terrain is in the state (considering its the midwest).

I've met some guys from a video game startup, and a good number of people from the big software company in town EPIC.

Certainly the cost of living here is pretty fantastically reasonable. I bought my first house here!

email me or message me on skype (same as my name on here) if you care to learn more about Madison :-)

I'm actually looking to start a Jelly or something here, so I can try meet other entrepreneurs.

Good Luck!

I'd love to meet bilbo or anyone else here in Madison :-)

Madison is pretty great, especially in the summer, but I think our winters are a bit foreboding.

The main problem with creating a startup atmosphere in Madison is that most people leave once they graduate. I've managed to stick around almost a year after graduation, but the coasts are beckoning. :)

Albuquerque is nice. Not Flat Decent city with interesting things to do. Fair community of hackers, coders and makers. Lots of movie money, lab money and spin offs. It's really booming around here lately Still possible to live walking distance to good food, bars, music, parks, and grocery stores for minimal green (especially compared to Bay Area).

Santa Fe is expensive and full of retirees who are snobs. It's close enough to drive up or train up (coming soon) if you'd like to visit, but no one should live there.

The only caution is NM is the land of entrapment. Stay for more than 2 years and you will never move away. (the spanish have been here for 500 years).

What didn't you like about the bay area? Mountain View or Sunnyvale seem to be the perfect fit for what you're looking for!

or Berkley?

I want to live someplace I can get around by bicycle. Perhaps that's technically possible in, say, mountain view, but mountain view isn't really a town unto itself, but a suburb or exurb or something. For all practical purposes, all those peninsula towns are part of a big, urban area that stretches from SF to San Jose. I agree that it would be good in a lot of other ways, and it's a tough decision, but in terms of livability I get sick of it every time I'm there, and I'm unenthusiastic about trying to raise a child there.

i get around on a bicycle in mountain view, palo alto, and the other towns around here. you just need to figure out the bike routes.

Yeah, Palo Alto and Stanford are very bike friendly and very expensive :/ I got around for most of my first year on bike.

Pittsburgh, PA (Oakland, Squirrel Hill) is a great place. Housing close to the city can be found pretty cheap. CMU, Pitt Med School, RAND. It definitely has topography. Has a small biotech community.

I'm in Pittsburgh until I leave... the biotech community mostly consists of UPMC but they have a huge presence in the town. There are some medical device startups here but the lack of angel/VC funding minimizes the startup presence.

Housing is very cheap here; it's one of the few housing markets in the country with the peculiar property that a monthly mortgage payment would be less than rent on an equivalent house. I wouldn't recommend raising a family in Oakland, which is turning into a student ghetto all over, but Squirrel Hill's a good neighborhood.

There's a whole lot of topography and global warming has made our winters a little better.

+1 for the Squirrel Hill and Shadyside neighborhoods in Pittsburgh. Incredibly cheap housing, biotech jobs are numerous, and there's more capital available than you'd think. CMU & Pitt churn out lots of science and engineering students as well.

Major cons: cold winters (it hit the single digits recently), shitty road surfaces

I grew up in Pittsburgh and it has another con you forgot: it is one of the cloudiest places in the US. IIRC only Erie and Buffalo are worse. I took it for granted when I was a kid, but it would get me down now.

Madison Wisconsin is a neat town-- I almost moved there. Winters are a bit cold.

I'm digging Seattle quite a bit... It's a big soggy in the winter but downright glorious in the summer. Winters aren't much wetter than the Bay Area, near as I can tell. Great access to outdoorsy stuff and a fairly lively startup community. Skiing 45 minutes east. Dry wine country 2 hours east. If you want to live in the sticks, there are some cool towns that people commute from on ferries. How cool is that?

Austin is cool. Decidedly un-Texan and charming.

Charlottesville, Virginia.

Lots of great outdoorsy things to do, great university, great cost-of-living, great quality-of-life, and fairly-easy access to Washington DC if you want to do the huge city stuff. (Plus there are things that DC has that you're just not going to find anywhere else) UVA has a huge medical college with all kinds of biotech. There is some startup activity in the area, but as you mention, you'll be taking a hit from places like SF.

biotech is more of a limiting factor than hacker-friendly. there are only three places in the USA: bay area, boston area, philadelphia suburbs / new jersey. none of which are mid-sized.

Boulder is nice, but I can't stand the people in Colorado. I would not say it is 'hacker friendly.' New Mexico is an interesting place to visit, sort of... but a horrible place to live.

My favorite mid-sized town in the USA is probably Portland.

You're 100% correct about biotech being a limiting factor. I can find some kind of programming job pretty much anywhere, but biotech really is about clusters...sigh. That said, she can only work at one job, so if she gets one of the few jobs in someplace like Boulder or Portland or wherever, that's good enough.

What don't you like about NM? I've never been there but it always seemed kind of interesting/different. And the people in Colorado...?

Different is a good word for NM. It is "kind of interesting" but it is also completely disgusting. Think of the worst place you have ever accidentally driven through in the USA. Now imagine that place is in the desert and everyone who lives there is on crystal meth. That is Albuquerque. Santa Fe is more of a retirement town that happens to have an atomic research facility.

I don't like stereotypical republicans or phony outdoorsy liberal types, so I didn't get along with anyone in Colorado.

Coimbra in Portugal would be the nearest Portuguese city that fits the bill.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coimbra

However, the economy in Portugal is so-so ... it's gotten better, but at times seems like a 3rd world country in Western Europe. Surprisingly high prices given the low salaries there.

Romanic language and decent climate? Most of Spain is full of lovely mid-sized towns. fitting those bills. What else is "hacker friendly"? Heck, any rathole is hacker friendly, all I need is coffee, cigarettes and somewhere to plug my laptop into.

Oh, you have family. That's different. Still, Spain's nice and Portugal might be, too.

The 'biotech jobs' thing is the problematic thing about Spain (and likely Portugal as well). I think. Anyone with good local knowledge is welcome to correct me. Otherwise, it has certainly crossed our thoughts - we went to Madrid, Sevilla and Granada on vacation a few years ago and enjoyed ourselves quite a bit.

You may want to consider Almeria, Spain. Large contingent of Brits and other expats, excellent weather, excellent services, and at least one University in-town, others nearby. A quick 45 minute flight to Madrid. Old Roman bath nearby , Mediterranean Sea, then beach, then 30 minutes away are foothills/rocky terrain.

If staying in the USA, the area outside Philadelphia (Main Line) or going a little farther, Lancaster, PA, will have excellent access to just about anywhere on the East Coast, while being as small to mid-size as you want, as you can choose between mostly-rural to mostly-urban as you travel west on Rt. 30 out of Philly.

If you like southern Oregon, but want better job options, it's tough to imagine how you could do much better than Portland. There are plenty of big tech employers along the 26 corridor, great mass transit and bike access, and an increasingly-vibrant startup culture.

True, there aren't the same number of overnight paper millionaires being minted as in SF or NY, but you can still house and feed a family on 60K a year.

We've got an up-and-coming restaurant scene, and some of the best beer in the country, too. I find it a pretty nice mix.

It does rain a lot. I'm usually too busy coding, cooking, or biking through traffic to care, though.

In the US any college town that size should fit the bill. It will be cheaper if not a suburb of a big city (Boulder is pretty expensive), and have a better climate if in the west. Portland might be the optimum.

Sure... it's not hard to look up college towns in the west, but I'm also looking for information on the 'feel' of places. Some people have posted negative opinions about New Mexico, for instance, which is something I wouldn't have found out on my own.

Davis, CA is a small university town with a great feel, and is only a 90 minute from the SF Bay Area. I prefer big cities and currently live in San Francisco, but I would live in Davis if I wanted to live in a small town.

Holmdel, NJ. Home of AT&T, Lucent Technologies, Avaya, Vonage and general telecommunications. Lots of brain here. Population is 20% Asian, so kids get off on chinese new year (today). Schools are very exceptional, and the selective High Tech High School nearby in Lincroft is top 50 high schools in the country. A decent home around here is between 400-700k, probably a little cheaper for townhouses.

Maryland is great. You can live in Columbia, MD and be between Baltimore and D.C. The IT salaries are very competitive and the cost of living is dramatically cheaper. Tons of great schools and Universities. Mountains 3 hours to the west, beaches 3 hours to the east. It gets a little too cold Dec.-Feb..

Cost of living is indeed fantastic, I bought a nice house in Baltimore for just over 200.

However, in terms of bike commute, or to say that it's hacker friendly, I don't see that myself. Have you found people that I haven't?

Also, is there much biotech outside of UMBI?

There's New Haven, Connecticut. It's got Yale University and a bunch of biotech companies. The downtown is greatly improved and offers a variety of delicious restaurants. The housing prices are pretty cheap too. Not so many software companies though, so that might be an issue.

How about Brighton, UK?

It's pretty small (around 250k people).

It's by the sea.

It's pretty hilly (For England)

It's an hour from London.

It's very hacker friendly - we have:

2 Universities:

http://www.brighton.ac.uk

http://www.sussex.ac.uk

A thriving geek/entrepreneur community:

http://www.brightongirlgeekdinners.co.uk/

http://www.brightoncodingdojo.co.uk/

http://fivepoundapp.com/meetup/10/

http://www.opencoffeesussex.com/ (Sometimes open beer and open juice meetups too)

http://brighton-ruby.org/

http://www.brightonfarm.com/ (Freelancers meetup)

http://upcoming.yahoo.com/event/419779/ (Geek Wine Thing)

http://www.businessbricks.co.uk/

Great places to work either in startups or as freelancers:

http://www.sinc.co.uk/ (Sussex Innovation Centre)

http://www.werkshop.org.uk/

http://www.brightonnewmedia.com/

Great events:

http://www.barcampbrighton.org/

http://2008.dconstruct.org/

http://widgetygoodness.com/

Some big companies too:

http://upcoming.yahoo.com/event/401666/ (Linden Labs)

Plus a couple of games companies - Climax, NCSoft http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/digitalcontent/2007/11/club_peng...

Plus it's a really relaxed and friendly place to be, more pubs/bars than days in the year (really) and the famous North and South Laines shopping areas for people who don't really enjoy the mall. Oh and some people call it BrightonCisco (http://presencelabs.com/2007/03/07/brightoncisco/).

There are many other reasons to be here and I'm sorry to any one if i've missed something really important out.

Kev

Don't forget the brilliant SussexDigital that brings much of this together: http://www.sussexdigital.com

... and groups like http://www.wiredsussex.com, http://www.projectbrighton.com and http://www.inuda.net (I'm the founder of that one)

.. oh and the weather today is amazing! : http://www.flickr.com/photos/tags/brighton/clusters/beach-pi...

Why not live in the bay area, enjoy all of the awesomeness, and opt out of the "rat race"?

housing is insane around in here. 800k buys you a shack. Unless you were either 1 Rich, 2.Cashed out huge amount of option shares 3.Gettin in debt out of your eyeballs, it is hard to afford a decent house with a normal salary. I like Berkeley, and SF, but still, living around in here is very expensive.

I find that this has a big impact on the local demographics. One of the reasons I was so happy to return to Padova in 2000 is that it just feels more 'real' to me. There are rich people, poor people, and everything in between. Lots of old people, but plenty of young people and families as well.

The bay area, unless you're rich, seems to be more about "get in, make money, get out". We're a bit weary of moving, and would like to stay somewhere for a little while.

Seattle is pretty good too.

I'm from Eugene, and don't think I could handle the weather there again, let alone further north, although if other people reading this are curious, I'd have to put a word in for Portland, if the climate isn't a problem for you.

And you aren't even thinking about Corvallis?

I mean Eugene and Corvallis both have most of the features you listed, plus you're an hour away from the coast and from the mountains...

For those looking to plug in to the Willamette Valley Tech social networks http://barcamp.org/BeaverBarCamp is coming up on March 1st in Corvallis.

I've been armchair-surfing the Portland tech scene. This blog about the PDX tech scene is interesting..

http://siliconflorist.com/

"Calagator, the community project designed to give Portland one tech calendar to rule them all, has quickly begun to show signs of progress. In fact, events have begun populating the calendar already." http://calagator.org/

I didn't know Oregon (Corvallis) had such a vibrant technology culture/market.

Corvallis has Hewlett-Packard. And a couple smaller companies. I'm not sure if it could be called vibrant...I lived there, but I'm always rather out of it.

I don't know that Corvallis is big enough to be really "happening", although it's a pleasant enough place. Portland is a better bet if you can stand the climate. Unfortunately, I really can't. The endless gray just wears me down mentally. I need regular time outdoors and sunshine. For others though, I'd heartily recommend Portland.

Copenhagen is a great place. I'll buy you a beer if you go here :-)

Sipping beer on a nearby hilltop... :-)

Denmark seems cool in a lot of ways, but unfortunately one of those ways is the climate - not to mention it completely fails the topography test: our house in downtown Innsbruck is about 3 times higher than the highest point in Denmark.

I actually have to say that Innsbruck isn't such a terrible place, but it's a bit too small and doesn't seem to have much of a tech scene. The area is gorgeous though:

http://www.welton.it/photos/innsbruck/

Anyone have experience with Sacramento? There is definitely some tech stuff going on in the surrounding area (Folsom), but I am not sure how many startups there are.

Ventura County, CA - Lots of places. Thousand oaks is where Amgen is HQ'ed. Lots of programming firms there. Bit on the pricey side though.

Two come to mind for me: Columbus, OH and Champaign, IL.

Champaign seems pretty close to what you're looking for, but it's definitely too flat. That's why I'm leaving.

Columbus has Ohio State right there, and is as booming as you're going to find in Ohio. It's a beautiful city for the size and there's a sizable tech industry there. It's a place I wouldn't hesitate to live, but I have yet to do my time in the bay area and look forward to trying that for a few years.

Columbus is a nice place to stay, as long as you don't mind the cold. I have been here for the past 4 years, and really like it. Its not too expensive, yet the city has a lot to offer, both socially and culturally. Having Ohio State's campus here brings a huge student population, and along with the working crowd in Columbus, makes for good balance.

Though I maybe I am missing what jmtulloss is trying to get to here... There is a sizeable tech industry, but from my experience, you have one of three options - work for a financial (bank/insurance) firm, work for the state, or work consulting. Not too many startups in Columbus.. either that, or I am ill-informed [I hope I am ill-informed :D]

I actually don't know anything about the startup climate, you're right. I just know of a lot of big names out there. You would hope with a major engineering University right there and a sizable tech industry, there would be at least some startup culture.

Columbus OH???

I lived in Columbus. Your opinion is invalid.

Topography: absolutely flat

Size: Columbus is a sprawling stain of concrete blight of about a million people.

College: If you obsessively love football and Natti Light, OK.

Tech Industry: name one. A small, dying satellite office of a huge multinational doesn't count. Neither does insurance or fast food.

Beautiful: Short North area is OK, but nothing special unless you compare it Toledo or Dayton

I'm not sure I understand why my opinion is invalid. My family is in the Columbus area, I'm not entirely ignorant on the topic.

And I do obsessively love football :)

I didn't vote anyone down, because I don't want to hog this whole thread, and some cool places turned up that I personally wouldn't consider but might be great for others (Madison sounds nice), but I think he's referring to the fact that Columbus is 1) bigger than the listed target size, 2) doesn't have a good climate, 3) is flatter than a pancake, and 4) according to him at least (I wouldn't have a clue) isn't really that great for startups/hackers anyway.

Truth be told, I think my idea of 'topography' is different than a lot of people's. This is topography:

http://www.welton.it/photos/innsbruck/innsbruck_panorama.htm...

While I'm fine with places not quite that dramatic - Padova only has some low-lying hills (5-600 M) nearby - I'd go crazy without some nice places to go biking/hiking.

I'd say somewhere around Boston would be ideal - Brookline, Cambridge, Framingham, etc..

Have you looked at Munich, while visiting the Android Developers Workshop?

Florida: There are some very pretty places in & around Orlando. There are tons of heavy-tech firms like Lockeed and Disney. I remember a few years ago that they were trying to whip up a "biotech hub", too. Scripps-Howard is setting up something in Boca Raton.

no f ucking way. Orlando is just a huge boring strip mall. Disneyland is a rip-off. And those firms, are really just megacorporates where only code monkeys work.

milwaukee, wisconsin, GE medical

Only having read his description, I would say Milwaukee is definitely NOT for him. Madison would be more his speed.

It is full of startups and a big university. Bio tech, medical and video gaming are the big things in Madison startup-wise. Milwaukee is good for financial, corporate and real estate type things.

Fun fact: Over the last decade, GE Medical has outsourced a LOT of tech people. Many were made offers in Madison. GE Medical, and the Milwaukee area in general, typically buy these people back essentially at a significant markup when they acquire the startups. Think Lunar.

My high school friend went there and always talked about how many bars per square mile there were in Madison. A ridiculous number. Not that that matters but...

Sounds like a nice place (voted up), but fails our climate and topography tests. Maybe it's right for someone else reading though, I read about it a little and it sounds like it's got a very good feel to it in terms of size and population.

Chicago, IL - or Evanston, Skokie which are around. Great place. No need to have car, unless you want to have it :-)

This is strange. The only place in America I would leave Chicago for is San Fransisco.

Chicago has the best waterfront in my option and the best summers. The restaurant and art scene are top-notch. The winters though...

Oh God, I know. One of my highest priorities in life is to be able to be somewhere else during the Chicago winter.

Miami is close. ;-)

vancouver or san diego. both little bigger, but both fit the 'livable' bill

Wellington , New Zealand. Totally rules.

What's great about Wellington for hackers?

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