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Comment by brandon272 | Hacker News Reader

> I still wake up with something like PTSD from getting yelled at and bullied by Tony Fadell.

This is so depressing. My gut tells me that absolutely no one should have to put up with this in an employment situation, but what are your options, other than to either "deal with it" or face the income and career insecurity that comes with quitting?

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The really great thing about being in software in Silicon Valley is that you can more or less write your own meal ticket somewhere else.

My advice to anyone else in this situation is to do just that. The first time abuse happens, just walk out, have a laugh about it (it reflects on them not you), and find another gig. There are a lot of great jobs out there.

I have a lot of empathy now for all the crummy jobs where people don't have that agility to move - we are really privileged in that we don't have to put up for this.

I would second that. Not in SV, in London, but I had a similar experience with an abusive work environment.

Stayed way too long and some of my shares vested. Now they're worth some money on paper, but it wasn't worth it - my advice for anyone in a similar situation would be to get out as early as possible.

Although leaving early creates an incentive for the company to abuse their workers before their shares vest.

If enough people leave the shares will not be worth much anyway

Don't put value on shares vesting late when comparing offers, then.

Seriously? In London? Now that is intriguing.

...which is why we should all be particularly angry when companies in Silicon Valley agree to not try to recruit each-other's employees. It doesn't just hold down wages, it makes it more likely some employee is going to suffer abuse because they don't know what options they have.

Yep. Fuck all those companies.

I thought the 'agreements' were related to active poaching.

I wouldn't bat an eyelid hiring somebody who's already quit or is genuinely on the verge of doing so.

Nope. Someone at Google also was let go because they hired someone from Apple who came of their own volition.

The agreements were variously related to active recruiting (don't cold-call employees of X), passive recruiting (don't hire employees of X), and active retribution for exploring career options (if you at company Y learn of any employees of X seeking jobs at Y, notify management at X). See http://www.hightechemployeelawsuit.com/case-documents.aspx for details about which companies made which commitments.

Or record or livestream the abuse using Google Glass and point the media to it like Business Insider.

To abuse your metaphor a little bit not everyone has the ink or the paper to write a new meal ticket just like that.

This is a good point. I am mid career so I was able to find a great job somewhere else in literally days because I (ironically) worked at Google before Nest. Not everyone has that experience or personal network to be able to do that - I was profoundly lucky and I realize that.

The first time abuse happens, just walk out, have a laugh about it (it reflects on them not you), and find another gig.

With all due respect, why not look them directly in the eye and reply: "Don't speak to me that way" and wait?

That sort of response helps other employees see how inappropriate it is.

Agreed. And if the next thing out of their mouth is anything but an apology, then walk out.

and wait for what? performance-improvement plan as paper trail for firing? "company culture" term is exactly that: company-wide culture. it's not that there is one fucked-up individual and it just happened that his(her) bosses/peers are just not aware of what's going on. it's accepted there, for whatever their rotten reasons are

Correct. You'll get a PIP and, given that management are such a-holes, you will soon be terminated for cause. Not a great thing to have following you if you are early in your career.

In my experience (on the employer side), you will terminated for performance, terminated at will, or at worst terminated for insubordination, but not terminated "for cause". Terminated for cause is very serious and generally means a serious breach of some sort: embezzlement, harassment, breach of contract, etc.

Termination of any of the other sorts is much less serious, usually results in severance and unemployment eligibility, and if you're coming from a place that mistreats its workers, it's generally not a hard story to sell that you stood up for yourself and got whacked for it. Other employers know the jackass employers by reputation, at least in the local area.

Terminated for insubordination is actually what I meant. I seem to recall that that was one of the "for cause" criterion, but not absolutely sure. Regardless, at the companies where I worked it meant involuntary termination without eligibility for rehire, no severance, and no unemployment benefits.

UI eligibility varies state by state. Here in MA, the FAQ says: "if your employer is able to show that you were fired for deliberate misconduct or violation of a company rule, you may be disqualified."

My strong wager is that standing up for abusive management practice would not trigger the "violation of company rule" clause and an employer with a penchant for acting like a jerk is unlikely to fight such a UI claim.

http://www.mass.gov/lwd/unemployment-insur/resources/questio...

Sure, but the problem is that if the employer is really bad they will strongly deny any abusive behavior and insist the employee simply refused to follow reasonable orders. Does the employee have to sue to get that overturned, and how would they win if it is one person's word against another?

I can understand your response - that was the way I used to think as well.

Its harder when its real life, you are getting a paycheck literally from this person, and you are usually surrounded by sycophants who think this is perfectly normal.

I think that's simply not true. It's the "shortage of engineers" meme that just won't die.

While there may be a lot of tech companies in SV hiring (debatable--there are certainly lots of them _interviewing_, but hiring?) there are only so many Alphabets and Facebooks in the area. Outside of opportunities at companies like these, you'll have to sacrifice some "career and income stability" which the parent poster pointed out.

Definitely leave if you're being abused, but it would be foolish not to prepare for a salary hit and/or 3-6 months of joblessness.

> face the income and career insecurity that comes with quitting

Get a firm job offer before you give your notice. You won't face any income uncertainty, and you'll have much more leverage while negotiating with potential new employers (unless let you it show that you're really desperate to leave your current gig).

> face the income and career insecurity that comes with quitting?

Next to zero chance of that for a developer in Silicon Valley. But don't think it doesn't happen to people in minimum wage jobs everywhere.

I had to deal with similar kind of shit in the past. Just not worth it unless you can cash out in a short time. Too much of a toll on your health. Better to be paid 5-10% less if necessary and do something I enjoy in comfort. However I think most who work at Nest could easily switch to new jobs given their credentials.

However I think most who work at Nest could easily switch to new jobs given their credentials.

I dunno. "Yeah, you remember last January when you came home from work and your dog was frozen solid? That, uh... that was my code."

There are no other good options.

You can complain but you will get forced out eventually for rocking the boat plus it may affect your reputation in the market place. You just need to do what everyone does. Grit your teeth, stay positive and plan your exit strategy to another company.

Any company that would look down on you negatively for speaking out about this treatment is one that deserves to miss out on talented engineers.

Indeed. It's a filter.

Somewhat related, I've been considering putting my birth year (IGY) at the top of my resume. I'd rather someone silently bitbucket my resume than show up for a useless interview.

We could rise up and destroy those who do such things. I don't think anyone would shed a tear if this guy were to be kicked out of the company.

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