Hacker News Reader

Comment by mdorazio | Hacker News Reader

How would this apply to something like learning to play the piano or guitar? The examples given for sports training seem practical, but I'm having trouble envisioning small variations of a similar type for things like instruments. Maybe varying the size/weight of the piano keys, or fret spacing on a guitar?

View on HN

Nah, this is already a common part of good practice techniques. When I was 12, I learned Chopin's Fantasie-Impromptu, a piece where you have to play four sequential notes in the right hand in the same beat length as playing three notes in the left, over and over again (they call this four-against-three), by doing the following:

1) Practicing right hand alone slowly 2) RH staccato (short punchy notes) 3) RH long-short long-short (so it "swings" kinda like jazz) 4) RH short-long short-long 5) RH short-short-short-long, and all other combinations 6) Same techniques as above, but with the LH, applied to a triple rather than a quad 7) Practicing both hands together, with RH steady but LH a syncopated "wrong" rhythm 8) Both hands together, LH steady but RH a syncopated "wrong" rhythm 9) Gradually speeding up the metronome until 7) and 8) "met in the middle" and it started sounding smooth

Later when I learned Beethoven's Appossionata (first movement), there's this section in left hand that is hard and fast, five notes per beat. Really hard if you're not left-handed. My teacher had me learn it by learning the mirror-image inverse in the right hand at the same time - so for instance if you'd play a C# in the left, you'd play an Eb (an octave up) in the right. It sounded like crap, but the end result was like it was my right hand "teaching" my left hand and I was eventually able to nail it.

- Adding a metronome, even at very slow tempos, adds good subtle variation.

- Starting from different points in the piece also provides a good subtle variation.

- Playing the piece at different octaves.

>The examples given for sports training seem practical, but I'm having trouble envisioning small variations of a similar type for things like instruments. Maybe varying the size/weight of the piano keys, or fret spacing on a guitar?

Huh? It's not about changing the instrument. They mean stuff like practicing in different tempos, the same pattern in different scales, playing a piece with different accompaniment styles, playing the piece with open vs barre chords, or with a different strumming pattern, etc.

I'm thinking more along the lines of practicing different scales, arpeggios and pieces each time, and practicing several different things instead of repeatedly practicing a single thing. Unfortunately, though, as an amateur violinist, I can say that this approach is not all that feasible after a certain level. Varying your warm-ups like what scales, arpeggios and etudes you play might be a good idea, but in the end the only really effective way of mastering a piece is to play it over and over, mostly in small sections, until you get it right. If you just scim over it each time, you're probably going to let mistakes slip in and ferment. But maybe changing something less related to the actual activity more in line with what you suggested might also work - lowering and raising the music stand and piano stool or chair, changing instruments or location, etc.

If you take the approach of mastering the instrument instead of a piece then scales, arpeggios, and other building blocks become critical. Almost like learning improv jazz violin, before taking on a classical piece

Mastering a musical instrument can be broken down into physical skills and aural skills. Exercises can be useful for physical skills, but aural skills can be practiced without them. Improvising is about being open to where you can go, and ear training of various kinds is going to be far more useful for that than practising the same group of exercises time and time again.

Scales is the key to improv in my experience

Scales are an important and necessary part, but I agree with ZenoArrow - developing aural skills is the key. It opens up so many possibilities. I haven't fully mastered those skills yet (still working on them), but learning just a little is like suddenly having a map while trying to find your way around a city. Before, you stumble around, stopping to ask for directions and taking wrong turns. After, you can plan what you want to do much more easily.

The key to musical improv (as opposed to experimental improv, which has its place) is meaning to play what you play, and you can only truly be free to do that when you know what the notes sound like before you play them.

For example, let's say you were learning guitar, a good exercise would be to look at a random note on the fretboard (for example, the 10th fret on the G string in standard tuning) and sing the note, then play the note and see how close you were. When you can do that reliably, that's a big step forward towards mastery IMO.

However, I would recommend starting with ear training for relative pitch rather than absolute pitch (which is what the exercise above is for). For that, you play a note, then sing a note a certain interval away from it (e.g. a minor third) then play the note which is a minor third away from the first note. I believe this is a great exercise to start with.

Imagine practicing a scale on the guitar. You could just repeat the scale over and over, but you could also add rhythmic variation, or play two notes up and one note down. Based on the article, it doesn't seem like moving the goalposts (ie, fret spacing) is the critical point, it's just that you don't want to just blindly do the same thing over and over and hope to get better.

Well, my violin teacher used to say that there were three important stages that a musician has to go through - playing badly and being unaware of what is going on, playing well and being unaware of what is going on, and finally, playing well and being aware of what is going on. When you've reached that final stage, you don't just repeatedly play a tune and hope to get better - you play it, hear your mistakes or what you want to change, and then repeat those sections and adjust them until you are content. Blindly repeating patterns is something you should get past relatively soon if you're hoping to get anywhere with an instrument.

That sounds a lot like the 4 stages of competence[1].

Unconscious Incompetence: You don't know that you don't know. (I don't know how to drive a manual)

Conscious Incompetence: You know that you don't know, and start learning the skill. (I'm learning how to drive a manual)

Conscious Competence: Your skills have improved and you understand them, but there's a lot of manual work involved. (To drive a manual, you do step X, Y, and Z)

Unconscious Competence: The skill has been internalized and is automatic. (I know how to drive a manual without thinking about it)

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_stages_of_competence

Except, it seems to have the last two in the opposite order?

No.

Think 10 minutes on scales, 10 minutes on playing the piece you know best, 10 minutes sight-reading something you've never seen, 10 minutes playing by ear to the radio, and 10 minutes playing a different instrument (or RockBand!). Repeat for 10k hours, and I'll see you at the Grammys ;)

Hanons.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com