In Paris, the customer is not always right | Hacker News Reader

In Paris, the customer is not always right

news.bbc.co.uk

23 pointstransmit10127 comments

Having spent much time in Paris during my lifetime, and far more in France itself, I'm very doubtful of this piece. In my entire life, I've only met one rude service provider in France and incidentally he was Croatian and despite speaking fluent French he had a heavy accent I couldn't understand.

I have a strong suspicion the author of this piece is violating basic etiquette on a regular basis. The key to the French is to start any conversation with 'Bonjour' regardless of if you know French or not, because 90% of the time you won't even get a chance to use a second word in French, especially in Paris where virtually everyone in the tourist areas speak decent English.

I remember me and my wife were in a little bistro near the Eiffel Tower, I took the lead and ordered. I got about half-way through before the waiter interrupted me and let me finish my order in English as it made it easier for both of us. Two or three tables down we saw an American couple (I'm guessing New York area by the accents), they got the same waiter as I did, but they said 'hello' and started trying to order in English. The waiter played coy, he didn't let on he knew English their entire meal, I think it took them 5-minutes to get through the entire order with him.

I find it quite moronic that people visit a foreign country and don't even bother to learn how to introduce themselves. I expect non-English immigrants to my country to at least know some basics, and 99% of them seem to. However the majority of English-speakers who go to France invite this trouble onto themselves by not even bothering to use a single word of the native language.

I've been to France, Spain (and several Spanish islands where dialects and customs differ a fair amount), Portugal and Turkey and I've never had this problem, because I always introduce myself in the local language. I remember getting a discount on speedboat rental in Turkey, the guy stopped us speaking Turkish (quite thankfully, because I think we got through the A-material in the first 3-words) and explained in English that we're one of the few 'Anglo's' in months to actually try speaking Turkish.

Common courtesy in a foreign country goes a long way, but most people are too ignorant to understand. In France, Spain, Portugal and Turkey if you spoke the local language, people appeared to bend over backwards to help you because you just showed them immense respect, not just personal respect but to their nation too.

Everywhere I have ever lived (the US and Europe) I noticed the same principles apply. If you approach people humbly, grateful for their willingness to share their culture with you, you will always get a positive response. Learning the local language, following the accepted social norms, and eating the local food will always go a long way. In fact, if you don't do most of those things to at least some extent, what's the point of being somewhere different?

You have some excellent points, and I think I learned some interesting things from your post.

I must disagree with one sentences though: I expect non-English immigrants to my country to at least know some basics, and 99% of them seem to.

I think this depends on where in the US you are, but where I live there are many people that seem to know absolutely no English at all, even after living here for many years. They seem to insulate themselves through friends and family that can speak English.

This slightly annoys me actually when I have to deal with it. I know some people are just learning English and I know some are tourists who will never master it, and I will bend over backwards to understand and help someone that is making an effort (when I visited Mexico I know my Spanish was atrocious every time I tried, so I sympathize with them). But when they have been here for a long time and made no effort to learn the language, I find it..irksome.

The percentage will definitely be off, it was based on my personal experience growing up in northern England. The same seems to apply here in Ontario, however I would expect it to be different along a cultural border. You can see it here in Ontario with Americans entering, but it's surprising how much speaking a common language has an effect on interactions.

It's very noticeable in Europe at the countries borders due to the schengen area laws. Although when you accidentally arrive in Switzerland and know none of the language, I know I personally feel like a complete ass.

I couldn't agree more. Having just gotten back from Paris recently I can say that by and large, we received very good and pleasant service from most of the locals we dealt with. I don't speak any French, but at least I tried to be polite in the language as best as I could (using copious Merci's interspersed with nearly every thing they did), and I think people responded well. In fact some of the better, more courteous, service I received was from younger people waiting tables (Tribeca on Rue Cler for example).

Of course not everybody spoke great English, but so long as I was appreciative of their efforts to work with me, things usually turned out pretty good.

I've found this is definitely true no matter where I've gone, from NYC to Seoul. If you act like a self-absorbed, entitled brat, people respond negatively to that.

She is the BBC correspondent for Paris - that pretty much guarantees she knows the culture of Paris inside out and can speak as a native, the Beeb does rather have it's pick of candidates.

Certainly as this article http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8038512.stm shows she can get on in a French Uni Psychology lecture. I don't think her linguistic skills are going to be the issue.

An interview from when she took on the position: http://www.fabfrog.com/2007/10/23/changing_the_bbc_girls_in_...

In my experience, service in Paris is inferior to almost every other place i've been to. People simply can't be bothered to be helpful. They always have better things to do, like finishing the conversation with their spouse, texting the boyfriend, biting the nails, etc. That is, unless you're a good looking piece of ass, in which case you might get a nice i wanna do you smile.

The French do indeed expect you to address them in French (in my experience, the ones that speak good English will have no problem with English though; very few of these though). And they simply have a different mindset. The waiter doesn't give a shit about you since (s)he is paid the same thing. The sellers in stores don't give a shit about whether you buy or not -- they get paid the same. They endorse random strikes, etc.

You just have to learn to live with it. There are good things about Paris. And I have seen good service in France, with trained waiters; the trick is that the bill/person can run up to 100 euros in such places.

This actually sounds like China before the privatization of the service industry in the 90s, and I suspect it's similar in other communist countries.

Back then store clerks were paid government wages with benefits, and most of time they would ignore customers even after you called them out. As a kid, I once went alone to buy an imported Gundam action figure with my savings and they made snide comments about my family being ostentatious.

Now-a-days in private establishments they go to ridiculous lengths to provide good services, it's almost surreal. Once in a restaurant my cousin found a tiny caterpillar on a vegetable dish (hey, no pesticide!) and the manager came out to apologize and offered the meal for three free of charge.

This is ridiculous. The waiter pretended not to know English just because a tourist said 'hello' instead of 'Bonjour'? WTF?

An example of a waiter being an ass. And I think a very good example continuing the theme of the original post.

I see absolutely no reason to say 'hello' in language X if I'm going to proceed speaking English. I'm trying to communicate, not to impress with my language knowledge. This just doesn't make sense. Hello is a greeting like any other, and it is accepted all over the world, except France that is.

Your feelings are exactly why the waiter behaved as he did. Day after day of dealing with people with attitudes like this would sour anybody who couldn't even be bothered to put forth the effort to say "hello" in the local language, which requires about as much effort as drinking a cup of coffee.

My experience indicates exactly the opposite. As a rule of thumb, at least in Europe, friendly chill people are thrilled that you're trying to speak their language, and grumpy impatient people interrupt your plodding attempts and insist on talking to you in English. If you think the person you're talking to might be sympathetic and willing to indulge you, even encourage you, then by all means address them in the local language. If you're worried about annoying someone who is busy and working, speak English.

Normally, I would politely and somewhat apologetically ask them if they speak English first, but if you're a waiter in certain kinds of places in Paris, you really can't pretend that you might not speak English, or that your customers might not know you speak English. C'mon.

I would actually feel sorry for any waiter trying to take my order in French. I mean, what if he can't afford to spend five minutes listening to me butcher the language, but he's too polite to ask me to stop?

> My experience indicates exactly the opposite. As a rule of thumb, at least in Europe, friendly chill people are thrilled that you're trying to speak their language, and grumpy impatient people interrupt your plodding attempts and insist on talking to you in English.

We can feel free to disagree I suppose. But I haven't experienced any of this in the 20 or so countries I've been in. In almost everyplace I've been, opening in my obviously American accented equivalent of the local "hello" then proceeding in English (even if they mistakenly think I can speak local), seems to work very well. Following up with the local "please", "thank you" and "good bye" also works pretty well.

Not being a douche, eating all the local food put in front of me, and being polite and deferential to my local hosts -- even if they are wait staff -- works wonders. And I've been to some pretty hostile places. In some cases, stuffing my self-entitled American give-it-to-me-now-and-speak-English-while-doing-it attitude down my own throat opened tons of doors even across vast cultural and linguistic differences.

In almost everyplace I've been, opening in my obviously American accented equivalent of the local "hello" then proceeding in English (even if they mistakenly think I can speak local), seems to work very well.

Which is no different from what I suggested, except that you mentioned saying "hello" in the local language and I mentioned asking if they speak English instead of presuming. Both good ideas, I think, unless you're in a situation where presuming is justified.

And I've been to some pretty hostile places. In some cases, stuffing my self-entitled American give-it-to-me-now-and-speak-English-while-doing-it attitude down my own throat opened tons of doors even across vast cultural and linguistic differences.

Well, that's a lot of external baggage you've imposed on the discussion. Since we were taking the time to discuss what polite behavior actually is in various situations, it would seem that we're already taking your "not being a douche" point for granted. And really, thinking in terms of your own attitude is not really the right way to do it, whether your attitude is "I'm an American and entitled to speak English anywhere" or "I'm quite proud of not being a self-entitled douche, and pardon me while I demonstrate that fact using this charming gentleman from the audience, I mean, the native culture." Aren't you supposed to think about what behavior will make the other person feel comfortable and respected, instead of thinking about what behavior would best reflect an admirable attitude on your part?

And you know, there are a couple of reasons why deference and humility are a pretty good universal pass to foreign cultures. It's not because they reflect a virtuous attitude, and it's not because they're polite behavior in all circumstances. First, the people you might offend or discomfort by that kind of behavior are generally not in a position to make any trouble for you. Second, lack of regard for social rank is part of the popular image of Americans (at least the positive popular image of Americans,) so people tend to understand inappropriately equal behavior as a reflection of Americanness instead of intentional rudeness. It turns out understanding and tolerance go both ways.

> And really, thinking in terms of your own attitude is not really the right way to do it, whether your attitude is "I'm an American and entitled to speak English anywhere" or "I'm quite proud of not being a self-entitled douche, and pardon me while I demonstrate that fact using this charming gentleman from the audience, I mean, the native culture." Aren't you supposed to think about what behavior will make the other person feel comfortable and respected, instead of thinking about what behavior would best reflect an admirable attitude on your part?

I'm not sure I understand how being polite, and being self-aware of your own actions are mutually exclusive?

> Second, lack of regard for social rank is part of the popular image of Americans (at least the positive popular image of Americans,) so people tend to understand inappropriately equal behavior as a reflection of Americanness instead of intentional rudeness. It turns out understanding and tolerance go both ways.

I can agree with this whole heartedly. Even in places with dense collections of small ceremonies acting as the marker of social politeness (say Japan for sake of argument), making an effort does not necessarily equal being polite from their perspective, since you may not be acting in a way congruent with the local concepts of politeness (where to put your chopsticks, how low to bow, etc.) But I've found most people understand that, though you are an outsider, you're at least making an effort, which is generally appreciated.

Usually, if you spend enough time there, you'll get helpful pointers from people who want to help you be polite. They wouldn't bother with this if they didn't see that you were at least attempting -- i.e. politeness is important to you, so it's worth their time and effort to tutor you.

It's not about the effort of saying "hello". If you don't know the language, it's reasonable not to try and begin a conversation in it -- what do you do when they reply with a rush of words you don't understand?

What they should have done was learned "Parlez-vous Anglais?"

> what do you do when they reply with a rush of words you don't understand?

It's not that hard...in fact I'd go so far as to say that it's so easy it's a non-issue. Just start pointing and speaking in very simple English after the introduction and unless they have an IQ that fluctuates with the ambient temperature, they'll get the picture. More importantly they'll at least appreciate you gave the old "being polite" a shot and be more inclined to help. Opening with English, like you expect them to serve you in your language, which just feeds into the popular global view of Americans and native English speakers, very rarely works.

Even if you expect help in English, it's how you package it up that matters. Rolling in, appearing that you are expecting to be helped in English makes people less inclined to help you. Bookending your interaction in "local", with "thank you" and other politeness as you can interspersed throughout packages up your expectations in a polite bow.

If you still get treated rudely even after you demonstrate that you are willing to try and meet them halfway in the interaction...it's likely just a rude person.

I wish that more of my countrymen and fellow native English speakers understood this type of basic politeness.

you reply back with "je suis desole mais je ne parlais pas beaucoups de francais" which translates to something like "I'm sorry but I don't speak very much french" (it's been about 10 years since the last time that I spoke any french with any regularity, so my phrasing may not be 100% correct.)

If you do want to continue in french, you can also throw in a "lentement, s'il vous plait" which means "slowly, please."

I know a guy whose father from South America visited our company. He greeted everyone with "Hola, Hola" and nobody had a problem with it. So, I agree with you.

I actually find the US way more uncomfortable. It seems to come across slightly in your face.

All of my favourite restraints are in France (thouh not Paris) almost exclusively for this reason. Quiet, polite, restrained.

As another poster in this thread touched on it is simply a case of local custom. Not tipping in the US, for example, is sure to net the same response I suspect.

Rude people in a major international alpha-city? I never.

I absolutely loath french culture. Sorry. Every time I go there I end up with a bad taste in my mouth and a mind telling me "never again". It's like you cant win with a french person.

However, their beaches, mountains, wine and food tells me otherwise. I'll keep this article in mind the next time I visit (this summer).

> It's like you cant win with a french person.

And there's your problem. Try working with them instead.

I tend to agree, though it's clearly not as bad as this article makes it out to be.

(I should precise that I'm French and have been living in the US for 5+ years) I think it's a different culture in customer service, and every time I go back I'm now expecting to have at least one weird-to-disastrous customer service experience. For Christmas, it was a call-center guy at Orange who was super condescending, refused to let me talk to his supervisor and ended up hanging up on me. (NB: I wasn't rude myself) I can absolutely not imagine that happening in the US.

There are plenty of times when the customer should only very rarely be right. When you're a designer, for example.

I spent a week in Tokyo at the beginning of the year. I'm glad that I read a lot before I went and picked up a few words. In hotels and restaurants, people will bend over backwards to help you. Everything they do is based around politeness. Everytime you walk into any kind of store you are greeted, whether a 7-11 or a high end hotel. But things are different. Your waiter doesn't come around to check on you until you specifically call for them. It's considered rude to bother the customer until they signal they need something. When at work or out socially, nearly every situation is governed by "sempai", which is who is senior among us. I went out drinking with 2 guys I met. They both worked as welder, but one was slightly older than the other. The younger one made sure he was always doing what the older one wanted. It wasn't as extreme as it sounds like I'm making it, but it was an under current the entire night.

Did you ever specifically ask someone to "motto shuchou shite kudasai"? I've always wondered if they enjoyed the politeness, or if it was something they'd cast off if they knew you'd appreciate it.

This is a cultural difference that, at least according to one theory, actually reflects an authoritarian culture rather than an egalitarian one. It comes down to why people follow orders. In egalitarian societies, people see the ability of one person to tell another person what to do as role-based, purely for the sake of efficiency. In authoritarian societies, people see it as based on the personal superiority or privilege of the person giving the order.

This can cause friction when two people from different cultures step on each other's sensibilities. A person with an egalitarian mentality working in a corporation in a less egalitarian country may be shocked at the way his "superiors" speak to him -- as if they were any better than him! A person from an authoritarian country may be offended when someone who is not his "superior" tries to "order him around," because "giving orders" presumes a hierarchical relationship between the two.

From my point of view, it's quite convenient that I feel free to tell other people what to do, or do what other people tell me, without worrying about whether that implies a power relationship between us (+). But then, I would feel that way about my own culture, wouldn't I?

For one analysis, see this book, which is oriented towards management and business communications:

http://www.amazon.com/Cultures-Organizations-Software-Geert-...

The author identified five dimensions that he thinks are the most informative about national cultural differences. This how France and the United States compare:

http://www.geert-hofstede.com/hofstede_dimensions.php?cultur...

Note that France scores much higher on the Power Distance dimension, which attempts to measure "the extent to which the less powerful members of organizations and institutions (like the family) accept and expect that power is distributed unequally. This represents inequality (more versus less), but defined from below, not from above. It suggests that a society's level of inequality is endorsed by the followers as much as by the leaders."

Obviously it's a gross oversimplification to measure national differences on just five dimensions, but it's also a gross oversimplification to presume anything about France merely from its embrace of "liberté, égalité, fraternité." The United States also officially and quite ostentatiously embraces equality, yet in the eyes of many, the United States is a leading exporter of inequality. The "equality" we celebrate in the United States can seem hollow or even trivial or useless from another perspective. Different cultures have notions of equality and inequality that appear simple to them while appearing complicated or contradictory to people from other cultures. I took a few semesters of French in college, but I don't have a clue what "égalité" means to them, only what it means to other Americans.

(+) I just have to worry that if I'm consistently taking orders instead of giving them, then I must not be coming up with many good ideas!

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