One of Paris’s last horse meat butchers discusses the disappearance of his trade
thenewinquiry.com
thenewinquiry.com
Reindeer steaks on the other hand, those are among the best steaks made out of any animal I've eaten. There the price comes from the fact that reindeer herds need hundreds if not thousands of square kilometres to roam freely. The good thing is that Finland has 123 000 sqkms of wilderness (roughly the size of Greece or Mississippi) officially dedicated for herding reindeer!
Most horses that are put down would be perfectly fine for human consumption, but slaughterhouses do not buy them for the aforementioned reason. The primary consumer of horse meat in Finland is the sausage industry, and they buy cheap South American meat by ton.
And yes, bison is tasty!
What they're most known for is their bresaola. The've got a number of different kinds; beef, goat, etc., but what I was most enamored of was the horse bresaola. It was a slender cut of meat, allowing the rosemary, juniper, and other spices to really come through in each slice. The horse itself was quite sweet. Deep purpleish red. Truly incredible.
And in Italy is strictly forbidden to slaughter work-horses for human consumption, though sometimes they crack down on an illegal butchery in Sicily, in the north you should be fairly safe.
Within a 30 mile radius of Parma, you can sample some of the best fruits and vegetables, stuffed pastas (ravioli), Parmesan cheese, balsamic vinegar, wine, and sausages in the world -- almost unbelievably cheaply! If you're looking for pesto di cavallo in particular, there's a great sandwich shop in Parma called Pepèn that I'd suggest.
If you happen to go there, know that the best pesto di cavallo shop is the one at the beginning of Via Emilia Est, just off the square to the right.
It's a tiny place, always choc full - you would probably recognise it by the queue spilling out on the pavement.
They only do pesto di cavallo, offering different varieties and even ready made pesto di cavallo tacos!
Definitely second the recommendation of horse Bresaola. It was deliciously herbacious, leaner than any other meat I've tried.
Now it's been a while since I've had horse meat, but I remember it to be pretty good.
What I don't know is why there should be a special butcher shop specifically for horse meat? In a regular butcher shop you can buy many other animal products than just beef (pork, rabbit, duck, chicken, lamb, etc.) so what's so special about horse?
In fact here's a search for places using the term 馬刺 [basashi] (馬=horse, 刺=from sashimi
Lots of places come up specializing in it
http://s.tabelog.com/smartphone/restaurant_list/list/?utf8=%...
I think it's fair to say that in the past, most people ate most meat, as long as it was fresh and there were no local taboos. I haven't read any studies but for bacterial reasons I suppose that raw consumption correlates with cold climates.
0. http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basen...
Chinese donkey meat sandwich. Looks pretty tasty.
I often wonder where the meat comes from though. Do they use young horses, or old, for instance? Also, the basashi I've had seems like it might be the tenderloin (it is very tender), so I wonder what happens to the rest of the animal. I'd very happily use it in stews if I could get it.
http://www.luxeat.com/blog/miyako-sushi-3-michelin-quality-m...
It's pretty good, although not one of the things I miss most about Italy in terms of food.
They'll charge foreigners one price, people from the Veneto another, and locals a third (cheaper) price. And that's if it's a decent place to eat, rather than one of the many very tourist-oriented locales where anyone local would never set foot.
How do you mean? I've really found the opposite to be true. It's something I love most about Italy; you can find good food prepared by people who are passionate about their food for relatively cheap, and it's always unfussy.
I've spent more time in smaller towns in Italy, but even in Rome I was able to find good non-touristy places. I've been to places like you describe and they suck.
Just walk a little bit out of the main tourist thoroughfares, and don't go anywhere that has pictures on the menu, has a touristic menu, or makes both seafood and pizza.
But you'll get much more for your money by eating somewhere outside of Venice, unless you know someone.
I lived in Padova for 15 years, speak fluent Italian, and the only time I ever felt like a got a good meal there was when I went to a place with a local my wife knew who did all the talking for us.
This behavior is labeled "moral schizophrenia" by some.
We say that we recognize that animals are sentient and therefore deserve moral consideration and freedom from unnecessary suffering, but we often behave toward them as insentient things and treat them in ways that are diametrically opposed to any moral consideration of their interests. Unless we label them as pets, of course. Then they are automatically included in our circle of compassion.
For a deeper look at the psychology behind this, I recommend this great TED talk: https://youtu.be/o0VrZPBskpg
It's simple: we have an alliance with dogs and treat them as our friends. Had truffle pigs been as common as hunting dogs, we wouldn't eat as much bacon. Now that this alliance is vestigial, we may see it decay - perhaps you don't believe in it.
Honestly, we probably feel more brotherhood with our work animals than we do with citizens of opposing countries. Makes sense, if someone came to rob your house the Soviets wouldn't bark.
Then, there is the idea that dogs reciprocate. We know at least some do, and we know that nearly every dog owner will claim that theirs does, and we know that a sufficiently inbred poodle won't have the faculty for it. Ether way, we are all told that dogs our our buddies who want to help us. Who would eat a buddy that wanted to help you? How many bacon-eaters think that the pig would, if it could, keep them safe and help them find other things to eat? Probably none.
(Note: I know that there are pig pets. Maybe they are friends, like dogs. If that's true, get the word out and porkchops stop tomorrow.)
2) If you are eating a service animal, that implies it was either too sick or too old to be of service. An old or sick animal is unlikely to yield quality meat.
3) Domestication is a powerful force. With great power comes great responsibility. Warning, the next paragraph is dark.
One of the most abominable animal abuses comes from eating dogs. Dogs are bred to be timid and sensitive. Consequently they are easily tormented. While it is an uncommon practice, in rural Korea dogs are tormented prior to butchering and then served in such a way to give the consumer an adrenaline buzz. These dogs are also a special farm-breed that is more flavorful.
The above story was told to me by several hosts while I was in Korea.
2) Based on the article, the horse butcher claims that all their meat was from working horses, but that they were butchered before the "prime" of their life (before 9 years) or after 14 years because the meat is more tender then. These working horses are fed a good diet, so the meat is supposedly good tasting compared to farmed animals who are fed specific food to get them fat & large faster.
The contradictory way in which we see one living creature's value over another is the reason I became a vegetarian. We bred dogs to be (insert reason that's not food) we also bred cows to be (insert reason that is food), We are the factor here, not the animals. Just because we bred animals to be a specific way doesn't itself justify the industrial slaughter of one versus another.
With that said, my choice was: embrace eating dog, or stop eating meat. I chose the latter, but I fully support anyone who chooses the former, but hope they don't do so under the premise that one animal we control is somehow more appropriate to kill and eat than another.
Why is that the choice? I'm not eating dog since there is no way I can ensure that the dog was treated with some minimum level of care before being killed. Probably a lot of the meat I eat was not killed in the most ideal conditions, but I like to think that I am buying better raised animals these days.
> The contradictory way in which we see one living creature's value over another is the reason I became a vegetarian.
My idea is that if we look at the economic value of animals it becomes less contradictory. Some animals taste good, can be put to work, give us enjoyment, provide materials we can use, are cute, are just fascinating etc. We're willing to bear the cost of keeping these around in some way. Others have really little going for them, e.g. the mosquito.
Just playing Devil's advocate here - what's contradictory about assuming that humans are the most important thing in the universe and everything else is here to serve us? I'm not saying it's the ethical thing to do, but contradictory is not a charge I'd level.
A sick animal is unlikely to yield quality meat. (Or at least, much meat, even if the quality is fine. Ask me how I know!) The older an animal gets, however, the richer and more intense the flavors can become. We eat young steers, barrows, and chickens because it costs less to feed an animal for 18 months than it does to feed it for ten years, not because the taste is necessarily better. Of course there are many other factors that affect flavor and quality of meat, but it's wrong to assume that younger is better.
A great movie to check out if this interests you: http://steakrevolution.com/
What distinction would that be? People eat bear-meat, hogs are at least partially omnivorous, and virtually every food species of fish and seafood is carnivorous. Or else a carrion-eater, like lobsters.
I've had this told to me by several horse people including my wife and a horse vet but don't know how true it actually is.
Edit; the will is do here; I had pet pigs and did not eat them, they are smart(er than dogs) and very rapidly bored. But a lot of fun. Very happy animals in the right environment.
A lot of horses just get abandoned on spare fields in what is called "fly grazing".
[1]http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/earth/agriculture/meat/10449...
As mentioned in the interview, there was a massive scandal in Europe about horse meat being substituted for beef in some products. No one would have batted an eye if it was turkey being substituted for chicken, or lamb for beef. Regulators would obviously have punished those responsible, but the public wouldn't have cared if there was no safety issue. But horses, and everyone loses their minds. How bizarre. It's the same thing with cats and dogs. People have no problem with killing pigs, and they sure love their bacon, but a lot of those same people would throw you in jail for eating cats or dogs. I don't understand it. Yes, I get that cats and dogs are pets. Are people really willing to ruin a human being's life, just to support the fantasy that little Fluffy is a person?
The outrage in Europe was largely due to horse meat not meant for human consumption making it into the food supply chain, right? The revulsion that many Americans feel about eating horse just isn't as prevalent in Europe.
As for some animals being more protected over others: sometimes, in a democracy, you just have to roll with the majority. We tend not to like our pets to be eaten.
But there are also people (and it is not a small minority) trying to impose their culture and taboos on other people. Just look at all the pressure and calls for action against Chinese and Koreans over their consumption of dog-meat. Here is an example of a petition that gathered over 4 million votes (https://www.change.org/p/stop-the-yulin-dog-meat-eating-fest...)
This article seems to cover the ethical and moral points, nicely : http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jun/22/eat-cat...
I agree that food should be labeled honestly. People who engage in that kind of dishonesty should be punished. But the high pitch of the outrage was very clearly because of the horse-meat taboo.
>As for some animals being more protected over others: sometimes, in a democracy, you just have to roll with the majority.
I agree, I certainly don't think people should break those laws. It's not a cause worthy of rebellion and all the harm it does. But that can't be an argument in favor of the majority's position. That would be an argument from majority, a logical fallacy. Bad ideas should be refuted.
I'm pretty comfortable with the idea of throwing people in jail for, say, setting a cat on fire. Whether it belongs to them or not doesn't really figure into that sentiment.
(The same applies for, say, a pig. It's not about cuteness.)
> how irrational people are
> the public wouldn't have cared if there was no safety
> issue
But there was a safety issue, so it wasn't irrational.Also people do seem pretty clear on not eating animals which are also widely kept as pets, with the exception perhaps of rabbit.
>Also there seems to be a pretty clear dividing line between pets and food.
Maybe in the time and place in which you exist, but in others the distinction is not the same. I have a pet dog, but I also enjoy bosintang. Is there a rational basis for why I can't have bosintang in the US?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cat_meat
> You don't address the point they made about people
> having no qualms about eating pig meat while
> simultaneously forbidding the consumption of cat and
> dog meat
> > Also there seems to be a pretty clear dividing line
> > between pets and food
There, you quoted it just after you called it an irrational position O_o > I have a pet dog, but I also enjoy bosintang. Is
> there a rational basis for why I can't have bosintang
> in the US?
I wonder how much research you've actually done here? Public opinion on dog meat in Korea is shifting ... pretty much in lock-step with the increase of keeping dogs as pets in Korea. Additionally, people don't keep meat breeds of dog as pets.I wonder if you'll use historic cannabalism as an argument that humans are irrational for avoiding eating each other next?
I'm familiar with the changing public opinion, but shifting public opinion does not constitute a rational basis. I assume that you would not approve of eating dogs if the practice was increasing in popularity. I also know that people don't keep nureongi as pets, but I'm not sure why you brought it up. Are suggesting that because they are specifically bred for slaughter this makes them OK to eat?
From my perspective I see a group of people trying to force their views on others. I'm intimately familiar with this story because I've seen it in many different forms. For example, for years my father and many of my friends did not have the right to marry in the US because of people just like you. Many justifications for this bigotry were offered, but in the end it all boiled down to "it makes me uncomfortable."
So, what's the rationale for why eating pigs is OK but eating cats and dogs is off limits? Is it just personal discomfort? Help me understand.
It often does. The Supreme Court will refuse to hear cases that it thinks should be decided by a political process. Politics is the process by which public opinion becomes law.
But since you asked, no, it does seem rather arbitrary. I'm not sure where you wanted to go with that argument. I would not eat dog, but I happily eat pork. I don't have a rational explanation for why, but neither do I care enough about it to want to try to change it.
If I did, I would probably go in the direction of eating dog rather than to stop eating meat entirely. It would not take much to push me in that direction. A few weeks in Korea might be enough for me to get over it.
>Also people do seem pretty clear on not eating animals which are also widely kept as pets, with the exception perhaps of rabbit.
I understand that apprehension. I'd probably have the same apprehension if a plate of dog meat was put in front of me, at least at first. I've had pet dogs and I cared a lot about them. But to throw someone else in jail over it? That ruins families, childhoods, and lives. Just so we can live with the fantasy that Fluffy is a person.
I'm not even 100% against meat, primarily because I know some people will never be convinced, however the regulations regarding cruelty and laws against filming etc are total crap.
Yeah, those claws that you use to hunt your food down are pretty natural.
Appeal to nature is an argument flaw and if you are rational you shouldn't use it.
Humans ate meat because they saved their energy. Do you know how they saved it? The non-human animals were walking around collecting nutrients so humans didn't have to waste that time. These non-human animals were nutrient packed and it allowed humans to save time, have more offsprings and survive.
Today, there's no energy savings. Today we bring the food to the animals, filtering millions of tons of nutrient filled grains through inefficient bodies that waste almost everything on keeping their temperature - their body warm. It is as far from nature as it gets.
You can't say there's something special about flesh that you need to survive, and there's nothing else that has it.
You like the luxury of eating meat, you like the taste, you like the texture. It is a luxurious activity that you allow yourself to have, ignoring the effects on the environment, ignoring the suffering (and yes there is no such thing as humane murder, rape or slaughter), doing it just for your pleasure. And it recently turned out to be almost an equivalent to cigarette smoking - so it's entirely irrational from a health perspective but that is the case for most of the luxuries.
That's fine with me but don't try to rationalize it, it is in its complete entirety - irrational.
It is also ironic that you pointed out a perfect example of speciesism (humans preferring one species over another) and you couldn't label yourself as a speciesist. It is also ironic how you pointed out the irrationality in other people, not seeing your own when it was right in front of you.
Chemotherapy for terminal cancers should be considered cruel and unusual punishment.
Meat is tasty. It's a pain in the ass to raise and deal with those damn animals, and we wouldn't bother with them if they weren't good to eat or produced milk or eggs that are useful. The evolutionary forebears of the horse and the cow are extinct or well on the way there in the wild.
Maybe more people should have the experience of slaughtering a pig or steer, dressing it out, hanging it, then cutting it up. It's a great biology lesson, you'll learn which cuts of meat come from where, and you'll become very suspicious of supermarket meat (hint - real hamburger is not bright red like that).
"My life experience has given me a better understanding of what is happening, and what a mistake it is to believe there is anything called "humane" slaughter. Animals have families and feelings, and to think that kindness before killing them is an answer is totally wrong. ...
There is always fear in their eyes. They know exactly what is going to happen. So for anyone to claim there is such a thing as humane slaughter, well, that's the greatest oxymoron in the world." - Howard Lyman, former rancher
I also like this story:
I meet a woman in a club, buy her drinks, make her laugh, dance with her, she's having the time of her life, we go to my place, I make her favorite dish, she drinks the best wine, music is playing, she feels absolutely great, sitting on couch, watching her favorite movie, meanwhile, she's sipping that drink, that has date rape drug in it. She passes out, I rape her. Humanely. Next morning she feels a bit drowsy, she thinks it's the alcholol, she smiles, says she felt perfect although she can't remember the rest of the evening. I was gentle, she doesn't feel raped. John Doe, humane rapist
It is absolutely irrational to call slaughter humane. This rationalizing to make things morally right is the common mistake people make. It is a mistake in deduction and reasoning.
Some philosophers would probably say I'm a deontologist, and they would say that consequences of a deed make a deed wrong not that the deed itself is wrong - which is my opinion. Are there no consequences to massive animal slaughter and flesh consumption? Is waste of tax-payer's money a consequence big enough, maybe climate change, massive pollution?
Any rational process, any non-laughable branch of philosophy will say that slaughter is immoral and that there's nothing humane about it - and that humane is an adjective that cannot stand by it.
I have no problem with people eating meat, but people who rationalize it through appeal to nature, through skewing morals, that's what I have a problem with.
I can't parse a coherent position out of the rest of this, or find any real relation to what I said. I'll be charitable and assume you pasted in a response in the wrong place...
I do it sometimes, I apologize if it confused, probably should have replied to myself.
Your post shows the typical HN response where libertarianism comes into play. It's about as bad as discussions around age, sexism, or visa issues.
Anyone can bring a ballot measure forth, and well, in CA, people with horses are in general as full of their self importance as your blowhard post. Oh and people think horses are cute, so it passed.
Regarding meat substitution, late 70s/early 80s Jack In the Box was substituting Kangaroo for beef.
There was a large blow back.
Sometimes it is out of emotion, sometimes it is out of misrepresentation.
Much to my surprise, in 2012 the US was the top 3rd producer of horse meat trailing China and Kazakhstan.
It's illegal in some states to raise horses for human consumption. No federal funds are available to conduct necessary inspection of horse slaughterhouses, so the three major horse "slaughterhouses" just export the live horses to Canada or Mexico for slaughter before shipping the processed meet over to Europe.
Really horses are much more suited to our climate/landscape than other animals, so it makes sense.
This is why we have animal welfare laws, because there are people like you out there.
Personal attacks are not allowed on Hacker News.
We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11056350 and marked it off-topic.
I mostly agree with you about the meat consumption thing, but this?
Are you saying govt. shouldn't be in the business of wildlife conservation, prevention of animal cruelty or abuse, or preservation of natural habitats (beyond considering their impact on humanity) ?
That doesn't mean that we should seek to disrupt the environment. On the contrary, it is very precious to us for many reasons and should be protected. A lot of those reasons are very utilitarian. But it's also because we appreciate its beauty, its complexity, and our kinship with all life. But those are still all things that we value.
Perhaps most of us would like that to be true, but judging humanity by it's behaviour rather than by its stated ideals I'd say we're not there yet.
The only reason why your statements are this speciesist is that no living ancestor of ours that was labeled a different species is alive today.
Otherwise you'd realize that species are a human construct, that there's no better/worse. Yes, that does mean that human as a fully moral being (morality comes from rationality) should try to minimize pain and suffering and destruction of life.
Animal holocaust is happening for thousands of years. Even the holocaust survivors have made comparisons and a lot of them have plant-based diets.
Go try breeding with a horse and get back to us on that.
If you find the theory of evolution a fact, then you wouldn't laugh at me. Any rational evolutionary biologist will agree that species are here to simplify the conversations, they cannot be used for ranking which species are better - they are also not the main theme of research.
Do you know how species are defined? Sane definition? - members of the same species can produce a fertile offspring. But there are hundreds if not thousand of exceptions where this happens even across the species boundary - the reason why it happens is that our labeling is in its core subjective and somewhat arbitrary, there's no dividng line/plane/svm-hyperplane.
In the parallel lines of time in evolution and natural selection we've been as long as all the living beings.
You wouldn't find homo erectus (neanderthalensis, habilis, rudolfensis, ergaster, floresiensis, even some australopithecae) attractive but you could procreate. There's a biological reason why you can't have children with a horse, it's not a species reason, it's not even ingrained in our species labeling as can be seen from the above definition.
What, you would rank the being as irrelevant (or less relevant) if you can't have children with it? Comedy of irrationality.
Go try finding your rationality and get back to us on that.
I don't even have an argument with you because you have a consistent view on the issue, unlike those that eat pigs but not cats or dogs. So we're actually mostly in agreement, the arbitrary classification that people are making with pigs and dogs being food or pets is silly.
And no, breeding compatibility does not decide my diet.
Edit: Your third and final paragraphs were added after I started writing my comment, which is why I didn't address them. I also don't understand your fourth paragraph.
As my third paragraph states, there are enough exceptions to see that species isn't always that definition, and that it is somewhat arbitrary.
Fourth paragraph is also an additional information for those who want to rank horses as lesser beings because we are obviously capable of reigning the planet thus our evolutionary path is more worth - without noticing that the evolution and natural selection don't have a goal set in stone.
If you don't have an argument, then why laugh at me with that horse joke? It's entirely irrelevant and, given my following comment, incorrect.
Species however has a scientific definition - "A species is often defined as the largest group of organisms where two individuals are capable of reproducing fertile offspring." Thus not a social construct, this is a well defined classification. We may reclassify species based on new information or because they evolved, but that doesn't mean its a social construct.
Ranking them by importance is social, however.
Evolution is gradual, there are no big species jumps.
What was there between sapiens and erectus, X? What was between sapiens and X, and X and erectus, Y and Z?
What was then between sapiens and Y, Y and X, X and Z, Z and erectus?
This can go on forever, evolution is by nature gradual, lets say it in your terms, a regression is more suitable than classification.
What point in this finely continous line do we pick for discrimination? Speciesism discovered!