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Comment by ntakasaki | Hacker News Reader

Or it can be a very nice object based API instead of a state based API that made sense in 1992 as the slide deck said and certainly didn't make any sense in 2008 when the industry group Khronos sided with the commercial CAD industry to screw over Linux consumer gaming because there was no money in it. How was that DirectX's fault again?

I am guess you're not a game developer and your post is yet another case of [1].

I am a game dev and here are some links that show to non game devs why DirectX is more popular:

http://programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/60544/why-do-...

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2711231

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/opengl-directx,2019.html

[1] http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2009/07/linus-...

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> Or it can be a very nice object based API instead of a state based API

That's exactly what Vulkan is. So where is MS voicing their support?

> I am a game dev

So did you ask MS why they didn't join Vulkan working group?

And I'm not sure what was your point in those links about OpenGL. We are talking about Vulkan.

Perhaps because design by a committee of peers usually results in a fragmentation and compatibility nightmare like this:

Edit: The below blog redirects HN referrers to a funny image macro, copy paste the link instead.

https://www.jwz.org/blog/2012/06/i-have-ported-xscreensaver-...

The delayed spec hasn't even been released yet and Nvidia is already making Vulkan extensions on its own.

https://developer.nvidia.com/engaging-voyage-vulkan

> Perhaps because design by a committee of peers usually results in a fragmentation and compatibility nightmare like this

It can. Or it can result in spec which helps everyone instead of just MS alone. Depends on how it's done. Vulkan is done from scratch, and so far I see no signs of them making mistakes of OpenGL. I guess we'll see more once it's released. Either way, what's the alternative? There is none, unless of course you work for MS and envision them controlling everything.

>Or it can result in spec which helps everyone instead of just MS alone.

Just MS alone? DirectX helps hundreds of millions of gamers, a whole bunch of game and application developers and companies.

That's like saying improvements to the Linux kernel help only the Linux kernel.

>Vulkan is done from scratch, and so far I see no signs of them making mistakes of OpenGL

Huh, how do you see that? The spec is developed behind closed doors by corporate folks each with their own interests. Even the W3C holds open discussions with specs.

A real alternative would be for the FOSS/Linux dev community to create and implement a standard properly.

> Just MS alone?

Yes. How can you use DirectX on non MS platforms? If MS wanted to help someone besides themselves, you could answer that question in a satisfactory fashion. But of course, they don't care about it, they only care about lock-in. Trying to pretend that lock-in serves anyone besides those who push for such lock-in is highly disingenuous.

> Huh, how do you see that?

From what was published about it so far (origin in Mantle, collaborative input of those who know better and so on).

> A real alternative would be for the FOSS/Linux dev community to create and implement a standard properly.

Linux community was involved. In fact the main link in this post is from one of the contributors to Wayland and Mesa who was working on Vulkan.

Other folks are beating about the bush, so I'll just come out and say it:

Linux is basically irrelevant to game developers.

Other folks have been nice, but let's just be clear here. Linux's graphics story is a stupid joke, the driver story is a stupid joke, the 3D story by way of OpenGL is a stupid joke, audio is a stupid joke.

That's why it doesn't matter if you can only use DirectCX on MS platforms--because by reaching only that teensy tiny vast majority of installed computers, devs can do well.

MS has always treated their developers better than anything in the 'nix or BSD ecosystem, and that extends to better thought-out and implemented APIs.

Sorry, but that's the world we live in, and in reality there is little point in MS worrying about a non-DX API--and little point in supporting one if you're making games for PC.

> Linux is basically irrelevant to game developers.

Sounds like a quote form early 2000s. We are long since past that. If you didn't pay attention to the last few years - then may be research what's going on now.

> That's why it doesn't matter if you can only use DirectCX on MS platforms

It does matter. Lock-in forces developers to do double work. I.e. if they can't reuse the effort - they need to duplicate it. To put it differently - MS on purpose increases the cost of making cross platform games. Obviously for the reason of putting competing platforms at a disadvantage. How can any developer find such behavior beneficial is hard to understand. All normal developers have no respect for lock-in.

> MS has always treated their developers better than anything

Oh, really? Forcing people to do double work is not called treating you better. It's called being a jerk. And jerks they are, same as anyone who uses tools for lock-in purposes (instead of for what they should be - tools).

So to be clear, you are calling all the game industry studios that specialize in platforms, porting and tooling, a practice that goes all the way back to the industry roots, jerks.

> you are calling all the game industry studios that specialize in platforms, porting and tooling, a practice that goes all the way back to the industry roots, jerks.

How exactly did you read that into my words? I said those who force people to do double work are jerks. I.e. those who create and enforce lock-in (MS and their ilk). Why would developers who have no option but to do that double work be jerks? It wasn't their decision and they have no control over those who create those walled gardens and lock-in.

Practice of lock-in doesn't go to "industry roots". It goes to those jerks who don't care about the industry and want to make life harder for developers by making tooling useless outside given walled gardens. Their selfish and stupid idea is based on assumption that the harder and more costly it is for anyone to do the work (because of duplication), the less likely they'll do it, thus sticking only to the walled garden they initially focused on. I.e. their usual exclusivity idea. Remember browser lock-in? Same idea here. It has nothing to do with the industry - it's all about jerkiness of those who make the tools and control the market.

But its not helpful is it. Its the same case for windows mobile where nobody is interested to create any apps since its user base is almost irrelevant.

How can you use LibGCM on non Sony platforms?

How can you use GX on non Nintendo platforms?

Sony, Nintendo and Apple are as guilty of lock-in as MS is. At least Nintendo, Apple and Sony are part of the Vulkan working group. Whether they'll support Vulkan on their walled gardens - time will tell. If they'll outgrow their petty lock-in mentality, they might. But MS didn't even join. To be clear - I have no respect for lock-in whether it comes from MS, Nintendo, Sony, Apple or whoever else.

Where are Nintendo and Sony?

In the Vulkan working group. And where is MS?

So is Apple, what has it brought to iDevices?

Or for that matter where are the Vulkan implementations for Sony and Nintendo consoles?

Being a logo on a web site has zero value besides PR, if they don't bring out support to their devices.

So how are they again different from MS?

> So is Apple, what has it brought to iDevices?

Who knows. Being part of the working group might mean they are considering it. Or may be not. MS though lets everyone know now that they don't care (by not being part of the group).

> So how are they again different from MS?

They are pretty similar in many (bad) ways, including the issue of lock-in. Apple is probably even worse these days.

> Vulkan is done from scratch, and so far I see no signs of them making mistakes of OpenGL.

So why is NVidia already providing extensions before it even gets out of the door?

Welcome to the multiple code paths that any OpenGL game developer already suffers from.

Everything old is new again.

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