Currency War: U.S. Hedge Funds Mount New Attacks on China's Yuan
wsj.com
wsj.com
People and foolish investors think, "Well, China has more than a billion people so it will eventually have a robust and rich economy!" Only, it doesn't work like that (cue the "That's not how this works. That's not how any of this works" lady). Population size is only a tiny facet of a much larger picture. And it's not even a particularly important one, relatively speaking. There are some economists who are now starting to think that having a massive population size may have the opposite effect; it helps you reach a certain point but then your massive size begins to act as an anchor which keeps you from growing further.
Hedge funds bet against the yuan because right now it is one-sided: meaning they don't need to worry about short squeezes as typical shorters would have to. If yuan were to sharply rise it is pretty certain that PBoC would intervene. This makes the bet against the yuan relatively safe. The only way the PBoC can stop the shorts is to make borrowing cost high. But it is also trying to make the yuan more widely used so it is loathe to do that as well over any extended time.
This is incorrect. Hedge funds borrow and create temporary money by writing derivative contracts such as options, futures & swaps. It is by this logic they can actually muster more funds than the PBOC in aggregate. Quite simply the market for currencies is bigger than the PBOC and the hedge funds, but there are more hedge funds that are richer than the 3T in reserves the PBOC has access to.
This is partly why the PBOC uses the overnight rate to limit resources (such as to affect the interest rate of the derivatives instead of the Yuan prices they bear). It would be possible to profit by arbitraging the interest rate so this would make using derivatives expensive too.
Of course affecting interest rates affects the entire economy as a whole and is unsustainable.
Not all of them do macro bets, nor would they concentrate their position 100% against rmb.
Nonetheless the size of markets in control of hedge funds is still larger than what the PBOC has access to.
It may be better to substitute 'hedge funds' with anyone out there wanting to make profit through a price anomaly. This amount of people and their money is larger than the PBOC's resources.
Also it doesn't always take a sell to lower a price, or a buy to increase a price. It just takes a price that has the largest amount of trades as it does on Monday morning auctions with every currency.
If you are talking about non deliverables, who will be your counter party if everyone wants to go short?
There doesn't need to be any, so long as the counter currency exists (the USD, EUR, JPY, etc) there can be a control against the onshore yuan, whether it trades or not.
There is always a counter party, It can be created using swaps to other currencies and to other companies actual cash flows.
I wouldn't want to argue against this topic excessively because its a fairly clear cut case of 'this time its different' with China, primarily through marketing.
I'd point out that on previous occasions in history, the gold & silver pegs, various cross currency pegs. It has always been the case the price setter has assumed they were bigger than the market and it has always turned out the opposite. It is also because the market can stand the test of time. This combined with today's use of leverage & derivatives is an even more dangerous combination.
Markets always assume the correct rate, because if not there is something that can be profited from.
None of what I say precipitates bias, I'm not against China's rise. I even believe the GDP numbers out of China, as I mention in another comment on this page. This is just the basis of how markets work. The predicate of your assumption is the PBOC is bigger than the market for Yuan trade and this is incorrect. In something as liquid as a currency a counter party will always be available.
I didn't say PBoC is bigger than the market. I said it is bigger than the offshore market. I don't see how that is controversial. It can shut down the offshore market if it wants to.
There is, Offshore-Onshore spread & HKD interbank rate.
> It can shut down the offshore market if it wants to.
Not forever, markets can do what they are without any limit. The PBOC loses money or hurts China's economy doing this and it cannot be sustained.
> Swap or not eventually someone has to be on the long side.
There is always a counter party as someone will need to buy something in China. Not every flow is speculative. It is a very large exporter economy, if not the largest.
A swap allows finding a counter party in a currency that is not the Yuan at the cost of the interest rate differential.
Finding a counter party is actually very easy, especially with exchange rate swaps. It does not require a Yuan counter party with physical RMB.
Instruments such as swaps, options and futures were actually created to provide liquidity in cases when it is withheld such as what is being done. This is what makes today even less different than previous times when it comes to exchange rate pegs.
If not a swap, its an option. An option can have a counter party as someone will always be willing to underwrite an option as it pays off a premium that has _no bias_ to the expected price direction of the underlying instrument.
Hedge funds know this because they have it all at their disposal. It is simply the cost of time that has to be paid (in terms of options premiums or the swap rates), if they are correct.
The PBOC realises this and this is why their options are limited to making the trade expensive as opposed to being able to control it. This is why they jacked up the HKD interbank rate and increased reserve requirements on the RMB. Again, it ought to be mentioned this hurts all HK and China businesses and is unsustainable in the longer run.
As I said I believe the hedge funds bets against the yuan are relatively safe. I believe this is the case because they are working for the PBoC, not against it. The PBoC apparently would not mind the yuan to weaken over time. It just doesn't want it too quickly or disorderly. It wants to give time to companies that borrowed in USD to bet on yuan appreciation to unwind but it does not want to freak out retail savers to jump on the same trade so it is a delicate position. One can debate if such a policy is wise but I don't think it is at all like the all powerful hedgies put a gun to the PBoC's head. Having the offshore yuan trade lower actually provides political cover for the PBoC in Washington. It is just that herding cats can be challenging.
There is always something that can be profited from. Therefore markets never assume the correct rates.
People have been naysaying China for a while but it's kept merrily growing. Mostly it's because the Chinese tend culturally to be pro education and hard working but in China were reduced to very low incomes by Mao's communism and have since been recovering and getting back towards the kind of economy they have in Taiwan, Hong Kong, Singapore and the like.
GDP per capita in China is $6,800 (up from $951 in 2000) against $32k in Taiwan and $55k in Singapore so there's a way to go. A housing crash will probably just be a blip for a while. They'd have to turn back to Mao to really muck things up.
Ironically, these unemployed million of disgruntled workers will not move into the empty buildings in the city; They'll most likely move back to the countryside. They will, however, be back in the city for protesting.
China took on the greatest pile of debt in world history in the shortest amount of time. Nothing like it has ever been seen before. They're now arguably the most indebted nation when you combine public + private debt, and it continues to expand. They have no way to reduce that debt, as the moment they take their foot off the debt gas their economy will crash, and yet their new debt is generating almost no growth return. They're bleeding reserves, they're overflowing with zombie corporations, their asset classes keep trying to implode and require constant large bailouts, and they still have nearly a billion poor people to deal with and half a billion pretend farmers without jobs. How could they be more of a disaster?
That's characteristic of both bubbles and genuine exceptional performance, and in many situations in addition to national economies. Look at rapidly growing startups, for example.
Click on the max timeframe for the first charts below to see the similar growth curves:
Japan [with a population of ~128 million] could run its economy into exports and scale to catching up with the West in that manner because of the smaller population.
China simply can't do that with 1 billion people.
http://www.cnbc.com/2015/10/12/china-exports-imports-continu...
China's exports have stopped growing and that is a very, very serious problem with debt fueled growth focused on exports. They'll have to print money [to bring export growth back and avoid a private debt bubble bursting] which is why everyone is betting against their currency. Or they'll go into a recession and they'll need to print money.
http://www.indexmundi.com/facts/indicators/NY.GDP.PCAP.CD/co...
Also, although China's been quickly urbanizing, China's % of urban population (about 51%) is still lower than Japan's in the 1960s (about 62%):
http://www.indexmundi.com/facts/indicators/SP.URB.TOTL.IN.ZS...
That said, plain old GDP also matters depending who you are. If your country's economy heavily relies on Chinese imports/exports (see my other comment), your government doesn't care much about the average Chinese citizen's living standards.
And never forget, that big revolutionary wave of iPhones and iPads? It came from China manufacturers.
In today's world, if you only look ahead, you will be blindsided from the rear. China is not China any more.
Europe still has significant headwinds, Canada and the middle east...that's pretty obvious with $30/barrel oil prices, Russia of course not doing terribly great, capital flooding back to the US from Central and South America due to interest rates rising.
Keep in mind, a lot of manufacturing is moving back to the US from China with automation being cheeper than (quickly rising) Chinese labor rates [1] [2] [3].
If China cannot stoke internal demand quickly enough (and I assure you, it cannot), it's going to slide into a deep recession. On the bright side, this is going to help cool off London, Toronto, Vancouver, SF/LA, Miami, and central Texas property markets (where a lot of Chinese money was flowing into).
[1] http://www.marketwatch.com/story/us-flips-the-script-on-jobs...
[2] http://news.yahoo.com/manufacturing-moving-china-us-survey-0...
[3] http://www.economist.com/news/special-report/21569570-growin...
I really really really really really hope so but man... I don't know... the Mainlanders have waayy too much money and the existing owners of multiple properties won't let the properties go anyway so we may have a stagnant period (good) for a while until either China gets better or... well, I hope the market goes down a bit :D.
But then again, China can't step back from the current structure of the economy without risking collapse, which would endanger the Party's power.
http://www.wsj.com/articles/foxconn-aims-to-fashion-its-own-...
http://fortune.com/2016/01/15/xiaomi-smartphone-sales-fall-s...
The majority of China's population still consists of subsistence farmers. China should be able to maintain rapid growth until those farmers are integrated into a modern industrialized economy at which point the returns on investment will start to diminish like it has for every other industrialized nation.
Those subsistence farmers are kept that way because there's nothing else for them to do and there never will be. China can't allow the productivity of their farming to rise - it's among the lowest on earth - because of the social chaos that would occur. Unless you can find another three to four billion global consumers equal to your typical US or European consumer, such that China can then employ 450 million more people in jobs.
[1]: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b5/Handelsb...
[2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_exchange_reserves_of_C...
http://www.wsj.com/articles/chinas-foreign-exchange-reserves...
Meta: Why is it SOP on HN to downvote/chastise those who claim US economic numbers are fabricated, or post zerohedge/shadowstats links, yet fully embrace the notion of the PRC is doing it? What makes the US so special in its sainthood?
Because even if the U.S was doing it, it would be minor fudging. If China is doing it, it's almost wholly fabricated and un-reflective of reality. The U.S has plenty of independent verification of its numbers, and tons of channels for oversight. China literally has no oversight. Their government is the end-all, be-all. The alpha and omega. They don't have any oversight whatsoever. Their government runs the media (that's not an exaggeration, they literally own the news agencies) as well, so you don't get for-profit news organizations who would love nothing more than an economic controversy of that scale to come out so they could report on it and make loads of cash.
Basically, the entire premise is silly if you just use a little critical thinking.
He did mention it is close and showed that tax revenues grew quite close to the GDP rate. This is something that does not typically happen when GDP decreases or is far off from the actual numbers.
6% is also a rather large increase YoY for the Chinese MoF's tax receipts. It is difficult to make hard cash of such a large number up.
I think what has happened is China actually grew faster than the claimed 7-9% in the past decade and now the amount is smoothened to reflect this
I've always noticed a sway on HN to downplay China's growth, given the large American audience this is quite expected. But it is good to be impartial to understand the changes a bit better.
For example, China is now Brazil's largest trading partner. In particular, it's the biggest importer of Brazilian goods (e.g. oil and iron). When China's manufacturing output grows or drops, its demand for Brazilian exports grows or drops too.
(One could probably make a stronger case by looking at e.g. Gulf countries instead of Brazil)
China is in the middle of a shift from an export-driven economy to a consumption-driven economy, part of the normal development arc of major economies. But increasing export profits at the expense of households pushes that balance in the wrong direction.
For more (much more!) detail on this, I highly suggest the blog 'China Financial Times' by Peking University professor Michael Pettis: mpettis.com.
But generally, yes: the world has a savings glut, and devaluing your currency helps export your domestic weakness (some economists call devaluation 'exporting your unemployment'). China is in a rather unique situation though.
http://www.economist.com/content/global_debt_clock
But in general I agree with your overall statement... everyone talks about China's "ghost cities" as if they are some sort of quixotic or keynesian tomfoolery... but a simpler explanation is simply that China wants to urbanize and grow a middle class as part of the development cycle you mentioned. They probably need a "hard landing" in order to cool off their real estate market and clear out the dead wood of their malinvestment in order to realize that goal.
That's also $57 trillion in savings. You do realize that someone owns the $57 trillion in debt, right? From the point of view of the owners, that is $57 trillion in savings. If you think debt is all bad, then you are not thinking coherently.
It may be logical yes but it's not how it works right now. It's how it worked when the gold standard was around...
I wish it was a zero sum game, but it's not.
How much of that is pensions? People work for decades, in the expectation of a pension, creating the pension liability; and are then going to require possibly decades of other people's work while they themselves are too old to work.
Discussion of "paying it off" is meaningless when it can only be sensibly rolled over forever.
The problem is that eventually the debts can grow so large that the people who are expected to service the ever increasing principal and interest payments view the debts and overwhelming and/or odious, and choose to default. Then you get a deflationary spiral (i.e., Greece, Cyprus, etc), or alternatively currencies can hyperinflate to service the debt, which is essentially another form of default (i.e., Japan).
We haven't really seen the current situation before, so don't know how this plays out... but we'll find out soon enough I think.
Yes, really.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-09-25/china-capi...
Also don't tell the US from 1820-1970 that. The strong dollar, backed by a gold standard, enabled the US to become the largest economy at warp speed.
A balanced to strong currency is ideal for a country. It provides increased purchasing power for consumers; it lures foreign capital; it keeps import costs low, including for commodities + producers; it keeps inflation from eroding the standard of living of the bottom 3/4 of citizens that can't hedge inflation; and it generates confidence for consumers, foreign investors, domestic investors, and businesses.
You can't pay attention only to numbers. You have to factor in culture, and a culture of hard work and innovation will beat the numbers every time. Not saying that they might not suffer a bit, but lets not forget that economy is a cyclic thing. What goes down will come up before too long because very smart people are hedging against all possibilities.
That doesn't make sense. The oil price is denominated in US dollars, so by devaluing you push it up. It's true that the price of oil is dropping too, but in the case of China they don't have domestic reserves so that doesn't matter.
IN the case of Russia they are in a pretty severe recession: http://www.reuters.com/article/us-russia-economy-idUSKBN0U70...
http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2010/06/04/when-soros-decided-to...
Edit - didn't see that the original WSJ article includes quotes by Soros mentioning his short, and also mentioned China's general warnings against shorts. Though the FT article I linked focuses specifically on Soros, and talks a bit about his history too.
Perhaps it makes more sense to Chinese eyes, but that looks very odd to me. If Soros tries and fails, he'll lose a lot of money, but that would seem to be no concern of the Chinese government. So if the Chinese authorities had no worries about the outcome it seems like they'd have no reason to try and warn him off; since they are trying to warn him off, it suggests they're worried.
The entire thing sort of comes off as an admission of weakness to me, which I doubt was the intention.
His name alone is enough to scare Chinese bankers who are worried they can't support their currency.
"by 2018 all of China's excess reserves — cash that it has on hand to use immediately — could be gone."
http://www.businessinsider.com/chinas-fx-reserves-less-than-...
[1] http://yaleglobal.yale.edu/content/renminbi-undervalued-thin...
"Kyle Bass’s Hayman Capital Management has sold off the bulk of its investments in stocks, commodities and bonds so it can focus on shorting Asian currencies, including the yuan and the Hong Kong dollar.
It is the biggest concentrated wager that the Dallas-based firm has made since its profitable bet years ago against the U.S. housing market. About 85% of Hayman Capital’s portfolio is now invested in trades that are expected to pay off if the yuan and Hong Kong dollar depreciate over the next three years—a bet with billions of dollars on the line, including borrowed money."
China Capital Outflows Rise to Estimated $1 Trillion in 2015
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-01-25/china-capi...
Chinese banks' new bad loans more than doubled in 2015
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-banking-npl-idUSKCN0...
China Crash: $28 Trillion Debt Load Forces Credit Crunch
http://www.breitbart.com/national-security/2016/01/05/china-...
Capital flight pushes China to the brink of devaluation
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/china-business/12088033/C...
Mark Hart: The Yuan Devaluation Still Has 50% To Go
http://www.valuewalk.com/2016/01/mark-hart-the-yuan-devaluat...
That said, I think that the world economic situation is so complex and chaotic that who knows. The USA might have a black swan economic event (my bet would be on a digital credit meltdown, no ATMs, run on cash, etc.) that would affect everything.
I am mostly optimistic about the future, but I also think it is a good idea to make plans for unlikely, but disruptive events.
Depending in the leverage they used for betting against the HKD these people might be at a serious risk of loosing everything they put there in case the trend doesn't suddenly change or if they don't get enough money from other sources to hold their leverage.
China's been in an economic boom for 37 years and for the most part people don't know what a bad market is. This is healthy for China. It will help shine the light on poor management. The question is whether the CCP will make the necessary changes which are antithetical to their stay-in-power strategy.
http://www.reuters.com/article/uk-china-forex-hedgefunds-idU...
Not the same article, FWIW.
We really need an official with HN FAQ: https://h4labs.wordpress.com/2015/09/14/hacker-news-faq-1-ho...
A unite and take on the world mentality is what allowed China to win sovereignty, and given how far they've come, I'd say the "us against the world" mentality has worked wonders for them so far.
It is a typical pattern on authoritarian mentalities and regimes. You'll find the same in Russia, widely spread among the Latin American left and the supporters of far right Republican candidates (Trump & Cruz).
The best to do is to "give them enough rope so that they hang themselves", unfortunately. Authoritarian, centralized and anti free trade regimes end up broken because they suffocate economic diversity, see Argentina, Venezuela and Russia.
Sanders: "If an institution is too big to fail, it is too big to exist."
Government can centralize things, yes. It can also break up existing centralized markets...and increase healthy competition.
You lost me when you said "all" powers though. The Constitution is a 2nd draft for a reason: We need some centralized power to keep a unified front in order to benefit from the economy of scale it provides.
I'm not sure that transparency can trump centralized power. When you get enough centralized power, you get to do what you want, whatever others think.
Quick google search: http://info-a.wdfiles.com/local--files/resursi/Catharina%20L...
"reforms focusing on increasing transparency should be accompanied by measures for strengthening citizens’ capacity to act upon the available information if we are to see positive effects on corruption. "
If this speculation hurts China, then some citizens US citizens have used a tool to attack and 'injure' a soverign nation. Seems like that would be our responsibilty the same way it'd be our responsibilty if we had a citizen milita that staged a raid into another country. Or it's your responsiblity if your kid breaks your neighbor's windows.
And what makes that 'seat of the pants' lawyering correct is that we're talking about soverign entities without an enforcable body of law to regulate their conduct, so we can't get off on a technicality.
When George Soros, based in New York, 'broke' the bank of England it was not an attack on Britain either by him or the US. He broke no laws. In fact by showing that the ERM was unsustainable and thereby preventing us adopting the Euro* he did us a massive favour. The UK economy is eternally in his debt.
* Alright, it's a bit of a stretch laying that entirely at his feet, but in an alternate timeline where we stayed in the ERM Euro membership was the logical outcome.
And Americans don't? Probably the most paranoid people with such limited understanding of the surrounding world...
> Instances of the United States overthrowing, or attempting to overthrow, a foreign government since the Second World War. (* indicates successful ouster of a government)
China 1949 to early 1960s
Albania 1949-53
East Germany 1950s
Iran 1953 *
Guatemala 1954 *
Costa Rica mid-1950s
Syria 1956-7
Egypt 1957
Indonesia 1957-8
British Guiana 1953-64 *
Iraq 1963 *
North Vietnam 1945-73
Cambodia 1955-70 *
Laos 1958 *, 1959 *, 1960 *
Ecuador 1960-63 *
Congo 1960 *
France 1965
Brazil 1962-64 *
Dominican Republic 1963 *
Cuba 1959 to present
Bolivia 1964 *
Indonesia 1965 *
Ghana 1966 *
Chile 1964-73 *
Greece 1967 *
Costa Rica 1970-71
Bolivia 1971 *
Australia 1973-75 *
Angola 1975, 1980s
Zaire 1975
Portugal 1974-76 *
Jamaica 1976-80 *
Seychelles 1979-81
Chad 1981-82 *
Grenada 1983 *
South Yemen 1982-84
Suriname 1982-84
Fiji 1987 *
Libya 1980s
Nicaragua 1981-90 *
Panama 1989 *
Bulgaria 1990 *
Albania 1991 *
Iraq 1991
Afghanistan 1980s *
Somalia 1993
Yugoslavia 1999-2000 *
Ecuador 2000 *
Afghanistan 2001 *
Venezuela 2002 *
Iraq 2003 *
Haiti 2004 *
Somalia 2007 to present
Honduras 2009
Libya 2011 *
Syria 2012
Ukraine 2014 *
http://williamblum.org/essays/read/overthrowing-other-people...First, it is not Yugoslavia, but Serbia. Second, USA has nothing to do with it. They only gave financial and logistic support to the opposition for political activities against the dictatorship. Should it be mentioned that the dictatorship that was overthrown had previously ruined and robbed its citizens, and had only a minority support of the citizens? Should also be mentioned that the dictatorship was brutally using police and army against its own citizens, killed political opponents, falsified several election results, push the country through several wars, etc...
I'm not an expert on all of these, but I do know quite a lot about the Great Dismissal[1].
No credible person puts any weight to any theory regarding the US/CIA being involved in any significant way with the this. Wikipedia's coverage is fine (although it is also worth noting that the CIA funded just about every conservative group around during that period, so anyone who was a member was open to the same accusations Kerr was).
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1975_Australian_constitutional...
http://www.amazon.com/Killing-Hope-Military-Interventions-II...
Re: Ukraine. Overthrowing a democratically-elected government is a revolution or a coup depending on who you ask. That the US favored a "transition" and was a major power broker isn't really disputed. It's interesting that there's no mention of Victoria Nuland, US ambassador to Ukraine, in that wiki article.