Microsoft pulls in $1.35B in revenue for Surface line | Hacker News Reader

Microsoft pulls in $1.35B in revenue for Surface line

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64 pointsjfuhrman78 comments

They certainly did something right, though I'm not quite sure what it was. A few years back, you couldn't step in front of an undergrad class here (Canada) without being subject to a wall of glowing bitten apples staring at you, now at least a quarter I'd estimate are those surface tablets.

Who knew people would take a chance on laptop that doesn't work when on your lap.

The branding of the surface has been pretty successful with the removable keyboard and especially the pen. The pen makes it really easy to take notes on lecture slides so you do not have to have mess/organize/maintain physical paper.

I've found the pen to be the one part of my Surface that I don't use all, maybe it's because I am left handed and it leaves OneNote registering a ton of false navigation gestures but it's basically unusable for me.

Overall, I still like my Surface (non Pro) but it's mostly for web browsing and media consumption.

I am surprised it does not come with a "left handed" setting! (Even if not two pen container compartments)

There is a setting for handedness in Windows (or at least there was in Windows 7). The most visible change was that context menus appeared on the other side (so that they don't appear under the hand). But if there is some kind of disabled touch zone near the stylus pointer it may be that it's in the direction of the hand as well.

It does. Hit the Windows button and type "pen" and go to "pen settings" and you can change it there.

I've heard [1] that you can go into Device settings for the pen/handwriting-recognition and set it to left handed and it will get better at ignoring the touches from your hand to the left of the pen.

[1] Not left handed myself.

Just verified this on the 1st gen Surface Pro I've got here at work. Hit the Win key, type "pen", open "pen settings" and the three basic options are "choose which hand you write with", "show visual effects", and "show cursor".

I'm not left handed so I can't comment on efficacy but the option is indeed there.

It actually works perfectly well when on your lap!

New SP4 owner (never had a surface). It's well on your lap. The back angle is infinitly adjustable, so that's not an issue and the key type cover is solid so typing isn't an issue even if on your lap - I read flex in the previous covers made this tricky.

> being subject to a wall of glowing bitten apples staring at you

Remarkable imagery.

Yep, it conjures up "angry" without saying it, nicely done! :-)

My wife has an SP3. Not only does it work fine on a lap, but it has a very nice stylus. It runs Adobe Indesign just fine. It runs Steam just fine, along with many slightly older games. The builtin speakers are good, as is the keyboard cover. It's quite portable and has a battery life of several hours when running Word + browser.

The Surface RT on the other hand remains kind of pointless.

Well, seeing as Windows RT is not receiving updates and the Surface 3 runs full Windows, isn't the "Surface RT" essentially dead?

There are actually multiple lap modes that both work great.

1) Like a regular laptop.

2) Fold the keyboard back and open the stand so it makes a right angle. Place the right angle so that the keyboard is parallel with your stomach and the Surface is perpendicular. Now the Surface is floating above your lap near the bottom of your chest where it's easy to read and write on.

3) Completely remove the keyboard.

I feel sorry for people who are using products from Apple's sterile and completely un-innovative product lines that are all moving closer and closer to the locked-down anti-consumer, anti-developer iOS business model.

Admittedly I haven't used one aside from once briefly in a store, but seeing people balance them on their laps using the keyboard just looks awkward. Like they are top heavy? Or just too small for that purpose, necessitating one to keep their knees close together.

Works fine for me, but I can imagine issues for people with short legs. If the kickstand needs to be out past the end of your knees you're going to have a problem.

Using a Surface in ones lap looks more awkward than actually is.

I feel like all the people responding to you here have never actually used one on their laps. Particularly not to type for very long. It really doesn't work well for that.

Honestly I think the product is pretty poorly designed, its just marketed well. Thats why the product hasn't turned much of a profit. Microsoft spent 400 million alone for the NFL to use them.

Now with all the problems surfacing(kek) they don't appear to be well built either.

Surface Pro 3 lapability test https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FvNSVjI02wI

Looks fine.

Actually watching that video demonstrates its not that great. Sure its doable, but as a device touted to be a productivity device that combines the best of laptops and tablets. Its more of a mediocre laptop and mediocre tablet.

Who uses a laptop that far up their gut?

I own the SP3, and that video is accurate.

But I disagree that the SP3 works well on lap in laptop "mode." The keyboard is so close to the crotch that he can barely get his hands in to type, and it doesn't seem workable medium to long term, I have exactly the same experience.

I never use the SP3 on my legs with the keyboard cover, only as a tablet + on-screen keyboard. However the keyboard cover works great on a bed, tablet top, or even floor.

PS - The Windows on-screen keyboard is garbage. Still no swipe/gesture-entry support even all these years later. It is as bad as Apple's default keyboard (REALLY bad).

For me it was a few things:

  1. Small size (easy to carry around)
  2. Keyboard that's even smaller, super light, and optional (easy to carry around)
  3. Fantastic pen (better usability)
  4. Full OS Capability (better usability)

So, they focused on portability and usability, and did really well with both. And when compared with Apple tablets, they have better non-trivial usability, and when compared with Apple laptops, they have better portability.

Having a computer that wasn't super expensive to take handwritten notes with was a dream for my undergrad. And now the surface offers that. I think that is a more unique benefit for students than in other cases.

My sister has an SP3 and likes it a lot. She's a student in college and I feel like this is a good niche for the hardware. The main draw to the Surface for her was the pen because of how well it worked compared to other options. She downloads pdf or ppt presentations and can annotate and take notes in class.

Is there any other hardware that can do this just as well? I think maybe the ipad pro but I have never used one.

My sister does the exact same thing with the Lenovo Thinkpad Yoga. She bought a separate stylus for it, but the combination has worked well for her.

    iPad: 7.1B - doomed category
    Surface Pro/Books: 1.35B - super impressive, categories of the future!

Isn't this what people said about the original iPhone?

It's a bit subjective since one company had huge market share out of the gate and invented the category, while the other keeps releasing 'new' products, years later. So yes, there's growth for now. For Wall Street, growth is pretty much key.

Why is it that when MS makes a "new" product and category, you put it in quotations, yet when Apple does it, you don't?

Your approach to these companies is hypocritical at best.

At least MS is trying to invent a new category these days.

>>> had huge market share out of the gate

That's just wrong.

>Why is it that when MS makes a "new" product and category, you put it in quotations, yet when Apple does it, you don't?

Because one dominates and defines the market, as can be seen by any before and after, and the other is just putting out some products few people care about.

So is the iPad Pro a "new" product or a new product?

iPad pro is a "new" product. The original iPad was a new product.

> the other is just putting out some products few people care about.

Exceptional job establishing your bias for the rest of us to see.

Sorry, but the market speaks for it too. Few people care about is a quantifiable statement.

If anything you uncovered a non-objective bias.

Tablet computers were available for 10 years before the iPad came out. They certainly brought the category mainstream but a long way from invented it.

I think it has to do with the trajectory.

iPad = declining sales year over year

Surface = increasing sales year over year

The iPad was hyped to kill laptops/PCs and Surface's doom was also hyped, so the new data points are interesting because they look like a reversal of trend.

Not claiming that this is actually how things have worked out or how customers think, but in terms of strategy it's still interesting. The iPad sought to target usage cases where a "full" laptop or desktop wasn't ideal. In doing so, it also left out several laptop/desktop capabilities that people might want to keep and missed.

After the mobile-grade tablet market was established by iPad and, later, other brands of devices, the Surface seems intended to offer the things people liked about tablets versus laptops or desktops (extreme portability, multitouch, etc) and has at least attempted to add back the things many people might have missed when using those mobile-class tablets such as greater flexibility in file management, the ability to install software from multiple sources, choose your own defaults, and run more capable software packages.

It's certainly had its tradeoffs and the greater power and flexibility meant it couldn't be quite as portable as a tablet or work quite as well in certain cases as a traditional laptop but it's been interesting to see how these companies seem to target audiences that aren't happy with certain aspects of dominant products.

The end result (for me at least) is that I've learned there's no "perfect" device or form factor that has all the pros and none of the cons in all situations. That said, more options certainly does make it easier to find something closer to what you're looking for. I enjoyed the portability of my iPad but chafed under restrictions that required jailbreaking to work around.

The Surface line still is not the perfect device for me but whenever my Asus laptop dies, I'll seriously be considering one as a secondary computer after using one at work (primary will probably remain a desktop for the foreseeable future).

Isn't it wrong to compare the Surface to the iPad? One is a full fledged pc with a complete operating system and the other is primarily a consumption device.

I think it makes more sense to compare the Surface line to the MacBook Air than it does to compare it to iPads.

They are comparable IMO, but it really only goes to show that software largely matters more than hardware.

After some early missteps it looks like MSFT has finally gotten the "tablet as productivity device" right, along with "tablet as true laptop replacement".

Much of this is because of Windows as a platform rather than necessarily the hardware itself (though the fact that the hardware doesn't suck like your typical Dell or HP shitbox definitely helps a lot).

Which is to say, the declining fortunes of iPad is IMO largely a symptom of iOS's limitations rather than any larger rejection of the tablet form factor.

Assuming an ASP of $800 for Surface, approx 1.7m units.

I think the reality is that Microsoft is essentially gaining market share as an OEM at the cost of its former Windows PC OEMs like Dell, HP etc.

I used a surface pro 3 for a couple weeks before ultimately returning it. Windows as a dev platform couldn't cut it for me, and the ubuntu VM in Virtualbox did not survive multiple sleep cycles one puts the surface through during normal use.

The thing i did love about the surface is that the processor is not sitting on my lap, where as the macbook air/pro burns my legs all day long.

I would love for apple to make a version of the macbook that puts the processor behind the screen.

hey I’m not trying to troll you or anything, sincere question: Exactly how do you work? On a sofa? Airplanes?

(irony zone, shortly after posting this, I realized that I’m typing from a lounge chair with my laptop squarely on my legs… but this is an unusual circumstance for me)

They kind of did the same thing with the xbox. Sunk a ton of money into. Instead of just pure revenue growth it is important to look at margins. The overall profitability of the product.

>Microsoft pulls in an impressive $1.35B in revenue for Surface line

Really? Impressive for whom? 1.3B is less than what Apple made with the iWatch -- and that's after decades of MS losing money and trying to go somewhere with their table OS and then tablet offerings.

Wait, where did you get Apple Watch numbers? Apple hasn't released those.

"Though Apple won't share specific sales figures for its new Apple Watch, disclosures made by the company this week reveal that the wearable device reached more than $1.69 billion in sales by the end of September"

http://appleinsider.com/articles/15/10/29/apple-watch-sales-...

So that's 6 months of sales versus 3 months for the Surface, so not directly comparable.

But how much profit did that generate? I don't see any mention of profit in the article.

Since when does anyone on HN care about actual profits?

My wife switched to a SP3 from a macbook, because it looked like a very compelling device.

It lost all bluetooth and wifi - 4 months out of warranty (hardware issue). From googling - this was not a completely uncommon occurrence.

Yes - we should have gotten the extended warranty, but this was an expensive device, and we expected quality hardware that would last.

From a usability perspective, it is a device that is in-between. It is not a stellar tablet nor a stellar laptop.

I believe most SP3's should still have hardware warranty, I purchased mine at a few months out of launch and still has it. I would ping customer support or take it a Microsoft Store.

Funny, my wife and I had a 2014 Macbook Pro with retina display and the backlight on the screen went out. We also have a SurfacePro 3 and have had no issues whatsoever. We brought the Macbook to the apple-store (with extended warranty) and they initially tried to tell me that screens were not covered (as they are almost always broken due to accidental damage). I had to come back with a flashlight and show them that you can still see the image, it's just the back light went out and you cant really break just the back light. I was really starting to move away from Apple anyway but this really sealed the deal for me. However, I know that my experience is anecdotal, and it's plural is not data so take my experience for what it's worth.....

I think this is impressive but it will see even larger growth when businesses start adopting them in lieu of the standard Dell laptops.

One thing I want to know from Surface Book owners is whether the keyboard can be configured for smoother productivity.

Naviagational (Home/PgUp/PgDown/End) and volume keys are on by default meaning that you have to press the Fn-Alt-Function Key if you want to use Alt-Function. The problem with that is that an independent Fn press will lock out the function key, toggling the behaviour so that Function Keys are now the default.

I would like it if LAlt-FunctionKey was different behaviour from RAlt-FunctionKey. LAlt-F4 would close a program while RAlt-Function Key would change the volume. The requirement to use the Fn Key and the fact that the Fn can be locked (and easily and accidentally unlocked/locked again) is a serious usability issue.

Actually I'd prefer a full real keyboard... nevertheless the Surface Book and the SP4 keyboards are massive improvements.

Moreover, does anyone know if the undocking button next to the Delete key can be locked out, say, requiring a key combination instead?

This is impressive in general, but particularly so in light of where they came from: http://www.zdnet.com/article/microsofts-900-million-surface-...

I wasn't really surprised by this, I've got a Surface Book (ordered after the announcement) and so far have been very pleased with the hardware, and hoping the software can catch up. For me, to replace a paper book and paper notebook you have to have a great reading experience and a great drawing experience. For me, the Surface Pro 4 has both of those.

That said, I'll probably end up getting the tablet version to augment the Surface Book unless they can fix detach. Way too often I try to detach and it won't because something is unable to release, and when I'm in "clipboard" mode there are no ports on the clipboard. I can get around that partially by using the dock which has ports but I'd really like a USB-C port and a micro-SD card slot on the display half.

It's really excellent harware. But sadly it's not very usable in Linux yet [1]. I'd love to use a fanless Surface with a tiling window manager as my daily driver.

But it comes nowhere close to my MBA 2012 (used by Linus for sometime) in terms of Linux compatibility. Almost perfect with a stock kernel except for really minor problems (no battery ACPI ticks when it discharges).

[1] https://www.reddit.com/r/surfacelinux

Linux support is, as you say, non-existent. That might be better with the new Dell Skylake laptops. That said, I've never found a pen-aware Linux sketching program that had any utility and I don't have the time to write one.

Sketching or note taking? Xournal is a pretty good note taking software and I've been using it for several years at this point.

Yep, xournal was the one I had in mind.

For the remaining stuff I'm completely keyboard-driven. Yet I prefer Surfaces to regular laptops. This is for ergonomic reasons.

I find it easy to place them split from the keyboard, which makes a great mini desktop. Also I can hold them as a tablet if I'm reading or surfing casually.

Perhaps also with the new X1 tablet?

"Microsoft and Nokia have sold a total of 110 million Windows Phones compared to 4.5 billion iOS and Android phones in the same period. IDC recently reported that 400 million phones were sold in the recent quarter, meaning just 1.1 percent of them were Lumia Windows Phones. Microsoft does not have any compelling Lumia handsets, and the Lumia 950 and Lumia 950 XL were both disappointing flagship devices with unfinished Windows 10 Mobile software."

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10993847

A general accounting question...do all companies count revenue the same way for scenarios like:

- Product is purchased by store.

- Customer actually buys product.

- Customer returns product.

- Unsold product is returned by store.

In other words, I don't know how to compare this to anything else because I don't know if it's counting units that didn't reach real customers, or if the announcement would be a lot different two weeks from now after some people return their Christmas presents?

They all count differently depend on the news they are trying to sell.

even if they'll give Surfaces for free, and pay people to use it, I am afraid, more and more people will use Android and iOS. It is simply too late for MS to "own the desktop". IN december I 've seen first time in my GA account that hits from Android users prevailed over MS OS, iOS being on the 3rd place.

UPD: since its mostly dull corporate websites, I think I am correct.

>Microsoft pulls in an impressive $1.35B in revenue for Surface line

Why don't they publish the profit they made on their Surface line of products? This is a lot like the revenue they reported for Azure. Until we know what they actually made these numbers are of very little value.

Impressive indeed! Over 19% of Apple's iPad revenue.

It's more comparable to at least a MacBook Air laptop.

They spec'd the Surface Book to match up with a MacBook Pro, but I honestly don't think the quality is there.

So managing to sell 20% of a competitors revenue, in a category where you were present 5+ years before said competitor, and after 5 years after the competitor redefined the category and created a huge multi-billion market for it (which it never had before) that they totally dominated, is impressive?

Naw, you're not a fanboi.

You just had to come and shit all over Microsoft and make the same point that you already made up thread because uhhh, you call it like you see it...right?

Bullshit. More like you can't deal with opinions that don't match your own, especially when it comes to Microsoft and Apple. You're nothing more than an pro-Apple, anti-Microsoft fanboi.

We've banned this account for repeatedly violating the HN guidelines, and no we couldn't care less about Microsoft vs. Apple.

I got a surface book for work, its pretty sweet.

If I ever get a tablet, it will be a surface. Simply because so much of the work I do resides in spreadsheets, and Surface is optimized for excel and productivity.

IMO, tablets are consuming devices. And as a tablet, my Surface Pro 4 is not very good - it is a bit too heavy and has a too short battery life.

As a portable laptop with a pen and screen with an excellent sRGB colorspace support - and with a nice keyboard - it's awesome.

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