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Comment by bbarn | Hacker News Reader

Let's see.. in the 20 odd years here in Chicago, the sum of my police interactions are:

Hit by a white shirt (supervisor) who came out of an alley on clark st while in a bike lane - somehow my fault, detained.

Hit on foot, by a car with no lights on in a residential neighborhood while crossing at a crosswalk - somehow my fault for being outside while there was "a suspect being hunted"

Watching officers on foot in 7-11's, local shops, etc, just walk in, take what the want, and leave.

Helping a friend move to another city because he ended a relationship with a cop who made his life a living hell after they broke up.

Being accused of trying to "make the neighborhood look bad" when I called the fire department because my neighbor had smoke coming out of the door in his apartment (turns out he was just passed out drunk and left a pizza in the oven, but what else do you do when you bang on a door pouring smoke and no one answers?)

So yeah, once my S/O finishes what she needs to to change jobs, we're out of here I think. The police force here is really the icing on the cake of so much else that's overpriced, corrupt, or just plain sucks about Chicago. All the good things it's supposed to have just seem completely irrelevant to me anymore.

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The worst years of my life were living next door to an Orleans Parish Sheriff. He would follow my friends home, he would spit out his gum onto my sidewalk, he let my dogs out of the yard every day for a week, he would blow his leaves onto my yard, he would let his dog bark all day and all night, he would hang his running leaf blower on the fence at 8:00 in the morning on a weekend. I really could go on and on.

There was no use getting help from the city. One night at maybe 1:00 AM I called the police because of the barking. He told me maybe I should just move.

I look at the police in a totally different way now. He was so clearly in the wrong and such a menace to all of the neighbors. Yet somehow he had an entire department on his side - a department he didn't even belong to. I told his wife my next step was the FBI. They moved shortly after that.

I'm sure wherever he is that he is harassing everyone around him. I can only imagine how his lack of ethics translates into his professional life.

Funny, I lived next to a police officer once. He was the only one with illegal fireworks every New Year's Eve (in Hawaii, where aerial fireworks are illegal).

Now that's true, but I will say that HPD on Oahu are the most professional and legit police officers I've ever had to deal with. I lived in town for six years and had run-ins with the law and no complaints about their behavior, including a couple of times when I thought that surely I would end up being taken advantage of.

Seconded, HPD in my experience have been extraordinarily professional and helpful. 10 year resident of O`ahu.

Fair point, I think they're mostly professional too and have friends who went into HPD, but I've seen enough that are not (grew up there 20 years, Ewa and downtown).

I have heard a lot of similar stories from credible people. Is there no department that people can complain to? It seems there is no interest in making sure that cops and prosecutors do a good job. You would think that somewhere up the chain people would be horrified by this lack of ethics.

I guess this bad attitude trickles down from DC.

The problem is it usually turns into a Think Of The Children argument. Among my friends on social media, everyone is either 100% anti-cop or pro-cop. No one is willing to discuss possible solutions to occasional injustice.

Maybe OPSO promised him that as a fringe benefit on top of the $12/hour (no, I'm not joking, I live in Orleans Parish) salary

Helping a friend move to another city because he ended a relationship with a cop who made his life a living hell after they broke up.

I was dating this girl a couple of years ago and we were pretty early on, but she wanted to spend the night. And we were cool so it wasn't an awkward thing, but what I figured out as that she didn't necessarily want to stay the night as much as she was afraid to go home at night. Her reasoning, "My mom just broke up with a police officer and they harass us now." Shes from a super small town with a police force with a reputation for having nothing to do, but staying busy. But even when she said it I thought she might be being dramatic. Now I get it. This type of behavior is ridiculously childish and it might not be the norm, but it seems like something someone could stop.

Police officers abuse their romantic partners at about twice the average rate. Domestic violence occurs in about 40% of households with police officers.

Note: those rates span a lifetime. It doesn't mean that every current relationship has a high rate of abuse.

Whatever the temporal basis of comparaison, it kind of means that any relationship involving a cop is more likely to result in abuse. no?

Yes. But it doesn't mean that, given a random sampling of 100 cops in relationships, you could expect ~40 of those to be currently abusive of their partners.

This is also what I initially understood. But still, it means that if I get 100 cops in a room, about 40 have been or will be in an abusive relationship. That is still very telling/surprising.

Does this also mean that of 100 randomly selected people (of whom an ordinary proportion are cops), that about 20 of them have been or will be in an abusive relationship?

I don't mean to downplay the 40 number in the police case (which is very high and kind of terrifying), but, 20% is still a lot! (and so, 40% is even more).

That's, for every 5, 1, on average! That is shockingly high.

wow?

Yelling is domestic violence. I think 20% is a bit low.

"Domestic violence occurs in about 40% of households with police officers"... I think that is what the above claim means.

difference between "it occurs in 40% of said households" and "40% of officers are the sole abusers".

I mean at any point in time it's not likely any given person, even an abusive person, is actively doing something. It doesn't mean it's less of a problem.

Abusers in relationships tend to be abusers in all of their relationships.

Do you have a citation for this statistic?

http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Police-domestic-violen...

> ridiculously childish

"crmiminally abusive" comes more easily to my mind.

Keep in mind that is the same police department that "operates an off-the-books interrogation compound, rendering Americans unable to be found by family or attorneys while locked inside what lawyers say is the domestic equivalent of a CIA black site."

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/feb/24/chicago-polic...

First world problem there. In Brazil we had the "Caso Amarildo": https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caso_Amarildo

They locked a humble worker without proofs, tortured him, killed him during the interrogatory, erased the cameras recording, turned off the GPS of the police cars that got rid of the body, and bribed a woman to commit perjury.

It's not as bad as that, but New Mexico did have the man who was "forgotten about" in police custody for two years: http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/03/06/17212442-man-left...

Just to get clear: "They" is the police.

I'm moving to Chicago in a few months. Are there certain neighborhoods that should be avoided on the basis of corrupt police activity? I wonder because I could see neighborhoods that are relatively safe in terms of civilian crime, but cops posted in that area might have nothing better to do than mess with its inhabitants.

I lived in Streeterville for more than three years, and I'm not sure if I ever saw a cop. Maybe at the food court the mall.

Lifelong Chicagoan here. I've never, ever had these issues and all my run-ins with cops have been fairly uneventful, if not pleasant. Chicago cops have better things to do than give traffic tickets usually and the last time I got pulled over (blew through red from a fast yellow) and I was just let go with a warning.

Recently, there is a mentally unstable person in my neighborhood and he decided to sit on my porch and light pieces of paper on fire one day. I called and they were there in 15 minutes and said they could do what they can to help this guy. The cops seemed geniunly concerned about his and my safety. I was floored by how well this call went.

I live in one of the decent, but not wealthy neighborhoods. Chicago is about 1/3rd horrible ghetto and 1/3rd marginal and 1/3rd decent. Life in those other 2/3rd's is very, very different. If you're outside of the typical "northside" neighborhoods the cops are much tougher and much more paranoid about being hurt or killed. I lived in one of those neighborhoods and there's a completely different vibe there. Cops pull up with 3+ squads at every call, take up defensive positions, hands close to weapons, etc. A dog attacked mine when I lived in Humboldt Park and the cops came out and were cool about it, but clearly on edge as I lived in gang territory. In other neighborhoods, I don't see this edge, or the defensive tactices. So yeah, there's something here about cop safety in marginal neighborhoods. I imagine provoking these guys in these neighborhoods leads to bad outcomes.

Also, not to attack the GP, but there is a Chicago cyclist personality I see frequently. They do dick moves with their bikes, cause accidents, never obey any traffic law, scream at pedestrians, have unbelievable senses of entitlements, kick/punch cars, and constantly pretend to be innocent and are often incredibly confrontational when criticized. I can't imagine cops being nice to these people and the GP sounds like one of these people, which may explain many of his experiences. Chicago cyclists have a bad rep for a reason.

That said, I have next to zero fear of the police and lots of fear in regards to the high criminality and massive gang population here. I've been intimidated and threatened on the train multiple times, car/house robbed, had to walk lady friends to their homes/cars many times not out of courtesy but because there was a known rapist loose or the gang kids were clearly looking to start trouble that night, have been uncomfortably close to a gang shooting at least once, hit 3x by DUI drivers, etc. I suspect Chicago cops are tough because Chicago has so much serious crime. This isn't the suburbs.

Wikipedia: Chicago has more gang members than any other city in the United States: 150,000. The city had 532 murders in 2012.

Chicago tribune: Chicago police officers shot 22 people in 2015, eight of them fatally.

532 vs 8, guys. Oh, 150,000 gang members is 5% of the population. That's right, this is a major city where 1 in 20 are gang members.

That said, the powerful Chicago police union is pretty horrible. It exists to protect the worst of the worst, out of some misplaced sense of pride. I would love to see public sector unions eliminated in the city, if not nationwide. They just make things worse for everyone. Society needs an alternative to the union system in the public sector. I find it bothersome that all the recent ant-police sentiment still has not percolated to the police unions. I suspect this is a political thing where liberals can't attack their own institutions. So expect zero real reform.

FWIW, I am darker skinned and do not pass as "white." I'm typically clocked as a Latino. I've always owned older cars , dress very casually outside of work, and live way below my means. I doubt I was treated in any special way because of status/race. I don't fall into the preferred categories.

"Also, not to attack the GP, but there is a Chicago cyclist personality I see frequently. They do dick moves with their bikes, cause accidents, never obey any traffic law, scream at pedestrians, and constantly pretend to be innocent and are often incredibly confrontational when criticized. I can't imagine cops being nice to these people and the GP sounds like one of these people, which may explain many of his experiences."

No, I'm the mild mannered, just let me get home without dying type. Stopping at lights, yielding at stop signs, pedestrian in crosswalks. Not in a particular hurry to get anywhere usually, overweight, calm demeanor. What makes me "sound like" one of these people to you? You'll note I mention this is the total sum of my interactions over 20 years in this city. I have yet to have a positive one, but still, there aren't many to speak of. Also, only the one experience there had anything to do with being on a bicycle.

You should mention bikes on r/Chicago.

----

As a pedestrian and a driver... screw the bikers. 95% of them are really shitty. The other 5% are well experienced in biking, and they hate the 95% of the other ones as well.

couldn't figure out why you were downvoted, your comment seemed to add to the conversation... until I got to

the GP sounds like one of these people, which may explain many of his experiences.

I'm not sure where you get that from what was written in the post, or why you think it would add value to the conversation, but in the future, I'd recommend keeping in mind that unjustified accusations directed at individuals render pretty much anything and everything else you write moot; they become what people take away from what you've expressed.

Agreed that last sentence wasn't helpful, but neither are the downvotes for him explaining exactly what the situation likely was.

Maybe the OP is a great cyclist. Maybe he's not. It's immaterial.

What is material is trying to provide some context into why that happened, if it did. Lets just say as a fellow Chicago resident I also immediately had the same suspicions that you were responding to.

I used to commute daily as a cyclist, until I moved here. I sold my bike, as I don't want to be associated with these people whatsoever. They are the most entitled, aggressive, and actively dangerous group of commuters I've witnessed. I've lived in Amsterdam. This is not how bikers should behave.

So to me, it was simply providing context to those who don't live here for stories that don't make any logical sense. Cyclists here get absolutely zero benefit of the doubt from me, and I imagine that attitude can get into a cop on a bad day as well. Certainly doesn't justify it, but it explains it.

Cycling's a big part of my life. I've been involved in advocacy groups, racing organizations, commuted most of my life, etc. I'm also a fairly smart guy. I recognize the difference between being out training fast/racing, and riding my bike to work. The two things have different applications, and I do them in appropriate settings.

I think I'm a pretty great cyclist, and by great I mean that I know when to do what, and consider my impact on those around me as much as myself.

The problem here is this is just one example of the problem with police abuse in general. Police should be capable of not defaulting to biases against groups of people because they need to be by their job description. Whether that's "all bikers are entitled and actively dangerous" or "all blacks are suspicious unless otherwise proven", the sentiment is the same. They must be held to a higher standard of judgment because of the authority they are given.

PS - If everyone gave up cycling because they didn't want to be associated with those who do it poorly, not only would that be a shame, it'd leave nothing but the belligerents you speak of.

>They are the most ... actively dangerous group of commuters I've witnessed.

Do people commuting on bike in Chicago kill more people than commuting in cars?

You don't compare fractions by their numerators alone, do you?

Genuine curiosity: why is this comment downvoted?

Probably for "Also, not to attack the GP", followed by "the GP sounds like one of these people" who "do dick moves with their bikes, cause accidents, never obey any traffic law, scream at pedestrians, have unbelievable senses of entitlements, kick/punch cars, and constantly pretend to be innocent and are often incredibly confrontational when criticized."

You are literally comparing cops to gangbangers (oh, but at least they aren't as bad). If you are doing that, you might as well do it per capita. Are there 150,000 cops in Chicago as well?

Only about 12,000 in the CPD according to Wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_Police_Department

Chicago neighborhoods are a useful designation for access to services, housing prices, likelihood of being shot on the way to the subway, being able to walk your dog at night, distance to the nearest ANYTHING besides a liquor store and check cashing store... but Chicago police are everywhere and nowhere. You don't call them, they call you.

They'll show up 5 times a day to question the family of the drug dealer who lives in your basement apartment and can somehow not figure out which unit it is... so you live in constant fear they're gonna come break down your door. They'll ticket and boot every car on a street despite a clearly visible permit on half of them...

But you'll hear gunshots down the block and ... nothing. You'll have an emergency and you won't get a response for an hour.

I'll be honest with you... Chicago is very much a place where you take your chances.

You can live in Streeterville for example, as rayiner alluded to in another post... but what happens when you go out with friends??? What if they want to go someplace in say... Wrigleyville... some night??? You're walking back to your car, or trying to get a taxi back to the loop, and you cross too close in front of a police officer, or his vehicle. (Basically, the same thing that bbarn was talking about in his post.) Even though it's completely inadvertent, and done with no ill intent, I've seen this very thing go decidedly bad for people in the past. It seems that it didn't go too well for bbarn either.

So if you're asking for guarantees... I think that reasonable people will concede that there are none.

The best advice is to be aware of your surroundings, and be aware that police are extremely dangerous and best avoided. Just do the common sense kind of things... allow police the path if you see them walking on the sidewalk. Don't look directly at an officer. When approached by a police officer, be extremely deferential. And for goodness sake, if you see police abusing power don't try to intercede. Don't let them see you recording or videoing the incident. When you have an opportunity later... just write an anonymous letter to a newspaper with the video or something. Etc etc etc.

Also... not trying to be even more of a dark cloud here, but I think a word of warning is appropriate on this particular point... if you are black and male, and assuming you are professional as you are a hacker news reader... I'm not entirely certain any of this will work for you in any case.

If it's that bad in Chicago, then what you have is not a police force, but a criminal organization.

Who's overseeing them? Are your elected officials powerless to do any thing?

Heh, the elected officials are exactly the problem:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_history_of_Chicago#C...

I grew up in Chicago, my family is still there, and most of my colleagues are based there. There is weird pseudo-Stockholm syndrome phenomenon where people just accept that the corruption is widespread and unavoidable.

Basically, it's all Gotham and no Batman.

Any chance this contributed to the Dark Knight being filmed there? Choosing Chicago for the cityscape makes sense by itself but the film focused heavily on corruption.

I found a nice breakdown of scene / real locations while looking into this: http://www.movie-locations.com/movies/d/DarkKnight.html

when i visited Chicago, it was felt like it is a matter of local pride when journalist on radio was telling something about corruption in the school district. Like "look how big! how brazen it is! we can do corruption like the best out there!"... pretty much like Jon Stewart in that bit about New Jersey corruption.

> then what you have is not a police force, but a criminal organization.

This is the only reasonable conclusion, and it's neither new nor particularly controversial. The real question is: what to do about it?

bend

to all the downvoters - you prefer being shot?

Perhaps they'll rather stand up to bullies, criminals and injustice, rather than say, "how low", when asked to "bend" by a bully.

"bullies, criminals and injustice" are the police. this whole rather depressing discussion is dedicated to the consequences of standing up to police. again, your choice is simple - bend or be shot.

here is another "self-defense" by Toronto police:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dx2iQnYMQfM

first 3 bullets in the chest, then 6 in already dead body, then taser the corpse. policemen successfully argued self-defense and was charged with attempted (???) murder. the only reason why this made to trial, was because video was released to public. otherwise he would have walked.

I thought they were supposed to use a taser first and live fire as a last resort? What in the world were they thinking? The guy is clearly not conscious/possibly already dead and then they taser him?

This is going to look bad. I'd better tase the corpse so I can claim I tried non-lethal means first, but the guy was unstoppable and I had to kill him.

Leave. Frictionless and painless. (I left Chicago after living there for ~2 decades)

I left after only 2.5 years. I didn't even have any watershed experiences. I just eventually heeded the voice in my head that whispered "get out of here" on a regular basis.

So I left, and I didn't exactly stop hearing that voice, but at least it said "this is pathetic" instead.

It didn't shut up entirely until I moved again.

I can barely even stand to drive around Chicago on the tristate tollway now.

> Frictionless and painless.

I can't imagine this is true.

What if you are flat broke? What if you have an elderly dependent in a nearby nursing home? A relative in a nearby prison? A child in the local schools?

It might be easy for some, but not for all.

Chicago is notorious for organized crime.

It sounds exactly like Russia to me. Same level or corruption and danger to regular citizens.

I've always found vast similarities between the USA and Russia but it seems to bring on deep offence if you mention it to an average American.

Probably because Chicago is not America.

It may be different in the more rural regions of Russia, but I'm from Saint-Petersburg, and I've never seen anything similar to a police officer go "in 7-11's, local shops, etc, just walk in, take what the want, and leave". They're usually civil, and sometimes helpful (you can ask directions, etc).

There is corruption here, but it seems to be more prevalent among the civil cervants and the higher ranking police officials.

The safest neighborhood in Chicago wrt police if you ask me is Hyde Park. This is of course if you are affiliated with the university. You get a free pass there because the police are paid extra to pamper.

The Safest by far is the northern side, Rogers Park.

I wouldn't say so. I have lived mostly north, and sometimes west, and found it to be generally the same.

Pick your neighborhood based on other factors.. closeness to the CTA trains, quality of food options, and general cleanliness. I've found these to be pretty good indicators of overall safety/quality of life in a neighborhood. (I won't get into the cause/effect argument, just saying that as a newcomer they are good measuring points)

Some of these posts here are a joke. Chicago is like any other major US city, probably better than the mid-tier cities I've spent time living in in terms of police and crime. It's simply very much two cities and you only hear news stories about one.

Just like anywhere else, don't act like an idiot or seek out trouble in rough areas and 99% of your interactions with police will be fine.

You're on HackerNews so presumably you make money and won't be living on the South Side or somewhere like it. If you're living in Lincoln Park, Wicker Park, Streeterville, etc. you will likely never witness a bad police interaction the entire time you live there - unless you go looking for it. Live in some of the more marginal neighborhoods and those you fear will almost assuredly not be the police.

It's like anywhere else - dressed like a young professional, out with other similar friends, not being confrontational and get caught doing a minor infraction? You'll be warned and maybe yelled at. Do the same acting like fools and giving attitude back? Yeah, you might be taught a lesson and spend the night in jail.

I've had plenty of interactions with CPD between myself and my drunk friends in my earlier days. The cops acted just like you would expect and desire them to in all but one situation. That situation was a friend jumping a security gate on the El to photograph some train stuff. He went to jail for the night.

As with everything like this the hyperbole is just nuts. If you're a poor minority living on the South Side my answer may be different, but for the typical Hackernews frequenter Chicago is no different than NYC or LA, and honestly in terms of "living in the city" you are likely to find far safer and wealthy neighborhoods than you will in the "inner city" of any other mid-tier NFL town in the US.

That said it's a big city. If you're used to living in a big city, Chicago is just another one with better than normal public transit. Same problems and concerns as anywhere else. You can find neighborhoods that have similar crime rates to the most wealthy suburbs there are, and neighborhoods with a higher homicide rate than Iraq. The latter gets you the police department in those areas you would expect.

> don't act like an idiot or seek out trouble in rough areas and 99% of your interactions with police will be fine.

This isn't the experience of many minorities and poor people.

I'm white and middle class and it's not my experience.

I would second this. I grew up in a suburb, but visited the city regularly in my teens and 20's. I have a lot of friends who live in chicago now and pretty much none of them (including hard core stoners to well paid financial investors) have had any trouble with police.

I feel like half of these comments are made up on here, or they were going to a place everyone knows is a bad place.

Hell, Joliet (the suburb I grew up in) had a higher crime rate.

>Do the same acting like fools and giving attitude back? Yeah, you might be taught a lesson and spend the night in jail.

It's hilarious that you find this acceptable.

Unless I break the law and am arrested, there is no way in hell I should spend the night in jail to be "taught a lesson". My attitude or dress are completely irrelevant.

I mean, did you even read the article? No one cares about your positive, one-time personal experience with the police. Joke, indeed.

Sure, I'm safe. That does not make it remotely acceptable. Just because I am in the "favored class" does not mean abuse of the other classes is OK.

> Are there certain neighborhoods that should be avoided on the basis of corrupt police activity?

No. It's largely a very safe city and a great place to live in. I've lived here for 16 years (2 in Lakeview, 1 in Uptown, 3 in the West Loop and 10 in Lincoln Square). If I can help answer any questions about the various neighborhoods, you can reach me via jeff@judge.io.

The quieter the neighborhood, the less likely it is you'll ever interact with a police officer.

If you're in your mid-20s, the typical places to end up would be Uky Village, Logan Square, Roscoe Village, Lincoln Square, and Uptown.

You wouldn't want to live in Streeterville or Edgewater for reasons beyond the number of police there. If you're seeing lots of police in Wrigleyville, it's because the neighborhood is overrun with drunk overgrown fraternity members. If you actually live in Wrigleyville, there's a good chance you like the police, because Wrigleyville drunks are pretty fucking annoying.

The kinds of police interactions characterized by things like the Laquan McDonald shooting are more or less confined to the south and west sides of the city, where you're not going to move anyways, because nobody is moving there.

There aren't neighborhoods in Chicago that are low-crime and high-police-violence.

I agree with the other commenter on this thread who points out that Chicago is just like every other big city. One of the things that makes Chicago distinctive is (unfortunately) the legacy of segregation and redlining from the 60s and 70s, which gutted whole large areas of the city. There aren't large sections of Manhattan or Brooklyn with virtually no white residents (at least, no area as large as the Austin/Lawndale neighborhoods). It's an extremely unfortunate situation for people that don't have the means to get out of those neighborhoods, and at the same time pretty much entirely shields white people from problems with CPD.

Why wouldn't you suggest Edgewater? I'm over in West Ridge and it's not so bad.

Because the question is where can you move where you won't come into contact with police all that often. Edgewater isn't bad, and I'd live there, but it's higher crime than Uptown and has a higher police presence.

> If you're seeing lots of police in Wrigleyville, it's because the neighborhood is overrun with drunk overgrown fraternity members. If you actually live in Wrigleyville, there's a good chance you like the police, because Wrigleyville drunks are pretty fucking annoying.

Wrigley isn't a good place to drink at. The cops know about how shitty it gets and they're sitting there waiting to break up fights, call the ambulance for people drinknig too much, and ticket out of control people.

Also, something that hasn't been said yet: Don't move to Englewood. That's where most of the crimes occur.

If you are white and in the wrong place, the police may approach you and tell you where you ought to be and how to get there. If you're white in white Chicago, police pretty much don't exist. They're who you call before your insurance company whenever a property crime occurs, and that's only because your insurer makes you.

You can compare maps at http://gis.chicagopolice.org/clearmap_crime_sums/startpage.h... and http://www.wbez.org/series/race-out-loud/where-we-are-mappin...

If you're black or Hispanic and in the wrong place, the police will approach you and try to find any reason. Any reason to what? Any reason to anything, that's what.

The racial segregation in Chicago is no longer enforced by real estate agents, redlining, and covenants. You can rent wherever you like in the city. But how often do you want to be forced to talk to a cop when you step outside?

It's hard to think of a neighborhood within the limits of the city of Chicago where you could be "out of place" for being black or hispanic, since we have huge black and hispanic populations. Beverly, maybe? But that seems like an exception that proves the rule, since Beverly is effectively a south suburb.

I do not at all doubt that if you are an "urban" looking black person wandering around a suburb like Kenilworth you are likely to be harassed by the police. There are Chicago suburbs that are somewhat defined by whiteness.

But even the whitest neighborhoods in Chicago have pretty significant African-American or Hispanic populations as well (there aren't that many black families living in Lakeview, for instance, but there's a large number of Hispanic families there).

Also, no cop has ever warned me to get out of a dangerous neighborhood in Chicago. Has that happened to you? Where were you?

It supposedly happened to a friend of the spouse who doesn't have a lot of common sense. I have no reason to question its veracity, because if anyone was ever in need of a professionally delivered assessment of "WTF are you doing here this late?", it was her. The cops were apparently able to make the assessment of "drunk and stupid" over "trying to buy drugs".

Though now that I think of it, maybe it was both.

And thinking about the other thing, I don't think I have ever seen a potential "just for being black" stop anywhere south of Belmont, either. So I guess that can't be pinned on CPD. Maybe the commercial centers in Rosemont, near O'Hare? Not sure if that's in the official city limits or not.

It is worthwhile to note that you might be black and "out of place" in your own neighborhood if you are outside in your own yard with a camera recording while the police are doing something.

Eh, there are definitely places south of Belmont but North of downtown. Like, say, Gold Coast.

Unfortunately, where to move? The situation is like that all over the USA. The increasing militarization of the police in the past 20 years (one thing about being "old" is you can see these things happen before your eyes) have produced a very bad scene.

I spent a couple years in Chile. They cops there walk around with machine guns (they're called "carabineros") but are professional, uncorrupt and trustworthy. The difference is palpable.

Also felt much safer around the Polezi in Germany.

But leaving the country has its own costs.

I'm thinking maybe remote work will become more of a thing and a small town somewhere relatively rural might be better... but then small town cops in Louisiana were pretty bad in my youth.

Honestly, if I have to deal with corruption, and all the other stuff, I'll at least have nice weather with it at this point. Central coast California, Boulder, CO, etc.

I lived in Chile for a couple years too, and while I knew cool carabineros and didn't have much trouble with them myself I've seen points of view that are way different. I think every system has good and bad eggs, but sometimes the organization and system established can either discourage or encourage poor behavior to some degree.

Funny anecdote I heard in a poor part of Santiago. A guy stabbed another guy during a futbol match. When the carabineros arrived they got the victim to a hospital and everything, but then they pinned the guy to the fence and let every other player in the game give him a good punch.

In my limited experience, the larger suburban areas are better (though far from perfect) with respect to police interaction than either cities or small towns (including rural areas).

Big cities tend to have similar problems as Chicago. Small towns and rural areas seem to ripe for petty abuses and also generating revenue via excessive traffic stops.

I grew up in the VA suburbs, and the police were terrible. Not systematic corruption like in Chicago or New York, but petty traffic stops and an awful attitude.

I've had nothing but overly positive experiences with police in Austin.

The difference after moving from the North East is glaring.

I think just about anywhere in the US would do. I've lived all over California in the last decade, and while the police out here aren't perfect, they are saints compared to the description of the Chicago PD in this thread.

LAPD and SFPD are under constant scandal, OaklandPD have been under federal control for years. You don't know what you're talking about wrt California police probably because you're white and wealthy.

"Constant scandal" with on par with Chicago PD? I don't think so...

I have to say America just seems like a dreadful mess.

It seems that way, but... it's not. I don't have any real data or concrete thoughts on why, but in general I much prefer some chaos and the potential for change to a whole bunch of stability bordering on stagnation even if it seems like a big hot mess. Don't believe the messy hype :P

The thing about America is it's huge. I believe these stories, but they don't reflect the behavior of cops where I live.

If all you go by is media reports, then sure, it sounds awful. But let me tell you something about the media: in general they look for the stories that inspire outrage and that are extraordinary. They do not reflect the normal life.

Americas biggest problem in the inner cities. They are literally ghettos were gangs and violence run rampant. The schools are pure shit. The kids have no future. The cops crack down hard (half because they have to in order to maintain any semblance of peace, half because they become jaded).

But that part of America is shockingly isolated from the rest of us. Chicago is a great example. There are blocks where on side of an intersection it's gang territory and the other is totally safe.

There are huge swaths of Chicago that are rich, peaceful, and probably the best city living in America. There are also huge swaths of pure poverty and gang warfare.

If you are born on the right side of the tracks, it's a great place. If you aren't, well, good luck.

> If you are born on the right side of the tracks, it's a great place. If you aren't, well, good luck.

And I'd regard that as a total failure. It's sad. It was the new land and here we are thanks to the lack of land value tax with the very rich and a large underclass with little social mobility.

> Americas biggest problem in the inner cities.

This is absolutely not true. Have you ever lived in an inner city? Yes some people are fighting with each other but if you act respectfully, you'll be left alone.

The police aren't cracking down because they "have to". They're cracking down (e.g. stop and frisk) because they're power hungry and ignorant.

As someone who's lived in all manner of socioeconomic areas of the US, I would say without hesitation that the biggest problem here is the cost of healthcare, education and housing. NOT any segment of the population.

It's really not true that if you act respectfully in Englewood or North Lawndale that you'll be left alone.

It is true (as true as it can be anywhere). By all means keep making blanket generalizations though because it keeps neighborhoods like that cheap for people like me to live in. I've spent > decade living in "ghettos" and not once have had an incident with the locals. I have however been harassed by cops many times regardless of the neighborhood I'm in.

I've been fucked with in high-crime neighborhoods in Chicago far more often than I've been fucked with by police (both have happened).

I don't think it's particularly good advice to tell people that they're safe in bad neighborhoods as long as they're "respectful".

My experience definitely does not match yours, poor people are just like everyone else and I actually find the communities in areas like that to be MUCH stronger if you take the time to get to know people.

I agree with you; I think there are some amazing strong communities all across the poorer areas of Chicago. But there are also people who will fuck with you there. The communities don't support them; in fact, on the west side (where I live), they put up signs on every block saying they want to chase those people away.

Ask people who bike from the loop to Oak Park if they've ever been fucked with in Lawndale. I have a friend who was ambushed and knocked off his bike right by Garfield Park.

I have never been mugged in Lakeview. I have been mugged in Austin.

Dangerous neighborhoods aren't a classist myth. In fact, I've come to the conclusion that part of "respecting" the poorer neighborhoods is not pretending like you can walk in front of a crowd of young men hanging out on a corner as if you have just as much a right to be there as they do.

> I've come to the conclusion that part of "respecting" the poorer neighborhoods is not pretending like you can walk in front of a crowd of young men hanging out on a corner as if you have just as much a right to be there as they do.

Well this is part of what I mean by treating people respectfully. As an outsider I always respected that the locals "owned" the neighborhood. You have to be cognizant of the local culture and try not to clash with it.

Any neighborhood can be "dangerous". I'm pretty sure you're more likely to get in a car wreck in the suburbs than mugged in the inner city. Just as you have to practice safe driving in the suburbs, you have to be careful of different things in the inner city.

I think the truth is somewhere between your guys' position. There is a very real statistical difference between the crime rates between neighborhoods. But its also true that the actual incident rate is much exaggerated by the media and perceptions of neighborhood differences are greater than reality.

One thing that is for sure, young black teens/men have a much, much more dangerous time of it, regardless of neighborhood than anyone else, and that is tragic.

And while we are adding anecdotes to the thread, I've lived in a "bad" neighborhood on Chicago's South Side for over a decade and I've never had a single violent incident (property crime has occurred). In that same span I was attacked in Lincoln Park and Streeterville, and had an attempted bicycle incident near McCormick Place.

I routinely walk in front of crowds of young men hanging on corners (its daily for me as I pass by a couple of schools) and have never had an incident (and I in fact know many of those young men). But there are also neighborhoods less than a mile away where I would not be comfortable doing that.

I think we probably agree completely.

Also, can we all agree that we'd feel a lot less safe in Wrigleyville after a Cubs game than anywhere else in the city?

The Lincoln Park incident involved a white 20 something lawyer...

a thousand times this. I've lived in Wrigleyville, Lincoln Park, Jeff Park, Wicker Park (almost humboldt, probably technically humboldt). Worked all across the south side. Worked downtown at a coffee kiosk. The places I've felt most unsafe were Wrigley during/after cubs game and downtown after the blackhawks won. I've been assaulted both ways.

Edit -> forgot LoganSq!!!

> have never had an incident (and I in fact know many of those young men)

You don't think those two things might be related?

> But its also true that the actual incident rate is much exaggerated by the media and perceptions of neighborhood differences are greater than reality.

"Reality" is a tricky concept here. Public (out-of-neighborhood) perception of risk will depress the incident rate by keeping victims out of the area. If you magically caused people to believe that the risk was at some level that you felt reflected the current incident rate, and the incident rate rose because people started going where they shouldn't have, whose beliefs were more accurate?

People don't really care about "how often do muggings take place in this neighborhood?". They care about "if I go in there, am I going to get mugged?".

>"respecting" the poorer neighborhoods is not pretending like you can walk in front of a crowd of young men hanging out on a corner as if you have just as much a right to be there as they do

interesting that this is the same social dynamic that police create in less poor neighborhoods, almost as if the poorer areas were filling some sort of tribal, no-outsiders-aloud enforcement role that the police generally fill, but have neglected these areas.

>This is absolutely not true. Have you ever lived in an inner city? Yes some people are fighting with each other but if you act respectfully, you'll be left alone.

I've lived in downtown areas of Chicago and DC, but never what people mean when they say "inner city" (i.e. ghetto).

They won't leave you alone. They'll rob you or break into your car. Criminals murder and steal from the people who live there at alarming rates.

They don't really leave the ghetto (other than one summer when kids did flash mobs in Chicago). So I could live in Chicago and feel entirely safe.

But last time I spent time in Englewood--a woman I was meeting with had her car broken into within 15minutes of parking on a major intersection.

>As someone who's lived in all manner of socioeconomic areas of the US, I would say without hesitation that the biggest problem here is the cost of healthcare, education and housing.

These are extremely middle class problems. Most people don't need or want a post-secondary education. 85% people have healthcare coverage. Housing is only bad in a few upper middle class areas.

> They won't leave you alone. They'll rob you or break into your car.

No "they" won't. Sorry your friend's car got broken into but that happens everywhere, not just the inner city.

> 85% people have healthcare coverage.

Pretty sure it's not the middle class that's not insured. Also rent prices absolutely are a poor problem. That's what gentrification is all about.

Your whole series of comments in this topic seem to be along the lines of, "Don't be a dick and nothing bad will happen to you." Maybe that's been your experience, and I'm not going to call you a liar. But that's simply not the case for everyone.

I moved to Brooklyn from Texas last June. Moved to a part of Crown Heights that my coworkers said was probably fine. Kind of on the edge of where things get genuinely sketchy.

Yes, I'm from Texas, and I'm white. My GF says I'm the whitest person she's ever dated by far. Not sure what that means, but apparently I stick out like a sore thumb of white-ness. Maybe that's some of it. I don't know.

But the guys at the corner grocery/deli/convenience stores wouldn't sell anything to me. Not even water. There were a lot of gunshots on the block in the evenings. I really hated walking home after working late--and it being a startup I was working for, that was almost every night.

At the end of my second week there, I was up on the roof of the building having a smoke (because I was tired of being harassed by everyone in the neighborhood when I would go smoke out on the stoop, and I just wanted to smoke a damn smoke without having to talk or listen to anyone) a couple of cops walked up to a guy (guess what color his skin was), chatted with him for a minute or so and then shot him. Twice in the torso, and then after he was on the ground, once in the face. Right in front of my place. When the crime report got to the news, it was literally my address they used when they said, "A man was shot last night just outside #xxx Troy Ave. in Crown Heights"

That, at least somewhat understandably, pissed the neighborhood off. For a week after that, thugs were stabbing people coming off the 4 train at Franklin during rush hour. Just stabbing white people. Not even mugging them. I was getting off two stops from there and ubering home for the remaining week I lived there before I moved to a different place.

A place that has about the same racial makeup. I'm still in the minority by a long shot. But the culture is entirely different, and a much happier place. A mere 2.8 miles from where I was living. NYC is such a weird place.

I am not a jerk to anyone, and I'm not the racist you might think I am because I'm from Texas. I had a remarkably multi-cultural upbringing, considering where I grew up. But the reality is that there are places where simply being white can get you in trouble.

Please understand I'm not complaining about this. The fact of the matter is that there are far fewer places in this country where being white can get you in trouble than there are places where being black can get you in trouble. I get that, and I'm not all that upset about it. Except for the cops shooting the guy for apparently no reason. That part does upset me.

My point is that you are simply wrong with your assertions that all you have to do is "respect the neighborhood" or whatever. That's bad advice for very many people.

First of all, I hope everyone reads your whole comment so they can learn about the police murdering someone when they thought they could get away with it. That's important to hear.

That being said, I have experienced something like the racial tension you say happened after that incident. It was scary but in the end I was safe partially because I made the time to get to know the people who lived around me. Not even hanging out get to know, just nod when you walk by.

If you're a good member of the community, the community will work to protect you if it can. You absolutely do need to keep your wits about you and be street safe though. I admit that's definitely not for everyone.

I don't understand what you mean when you say that you are "a good member of the community" and I also am skeptical that it was ever possible to be that in that neighborhood.

I was a good member of the community in the sense that I paid rent on time, I helped my elderly neighbors get their groceries up the steps and into the house.

But I don't want to hang out with anyone. I am not a particularly sociable person. I'm an extreme introvert. I play the violin and write code.

I'm not going to hang out with the local people in the neighborhood and smoke weed with them because I'm on probation for a DUI, and any interaction with drugs or alcohol could land me in state prison in Texas for 18 months.

What exactly is it that you mean when you say be a "good member of the community"?

What does "have health care coverage" mean? Have health insurance? People with health insurance can and do still rake up significant out of pocket medical bills. And copays don't stop, even after you've met your deductible.

Doesn't count when it's a $3000 deductible.

The thing to keep in mind is that America isn't as homogeneous as a European country, it's as diverse as the entire European continent. Would you say that Denmark is a dreadful mess because of the crime rate in Serbia? Probably not.

To be fair to branchless... Chicago's crime rate is not all that high. It certainly would not make a list of the top 50 crime cities in the US. Or even the top 100.

(http://www.neighborhoodscout.com/neighborhoods/crime-rates/t...)

So, I'm thinking, branchless' thought process probably goes something like this... "If Chicago is this bad with crime and corruption... what must the rest of the US be like???"

Having mentioned that, other people are correct as well to point out that not ALL places will have the same level of corruption. Many, many places have far more corruption and crime than Chicago. And many, many places have far less corruption and crime than Chicago. But if you are from Western Europe, the mean level of corruption here in the US may be discomfiting to you.

30th in murder rate though: http://www.neighborhoodscout.com/top-lists/highest-murder-ra...

Murder rate is probably the only statistic that can be trusted. Police are under lots of pressure to make sure crime stats go down, and it's really easy to misclassify or ignore reports for things like armed robbery or rape. A body is harder to hide.

And crimes committed by police probably won't show up either...

Heck, I think the title of this one speaks for itself:

http://www.vox.com/2014/6/29/5850100/chicago-brought-its-mur...

But why stop at the title?

> they find evidence that while Chicago reported 414 murders in 2013 they really had at least 432 through what, if you read the article (and you should) looks like pretty deliberate malfeasance.

> For example, Patrick Walker was found injured and unresponsive in a crashed automobile, taken to a hospital where he died, then during an autopsy they found a gunshot wound in his head and a bullet casing in the back seat of the car. Owing to the fact that he was clearly shot and killed, this was filed on his death certificate as a murder. But the Chicago Police Department has classified the case as a death investigation, making it disappear from their stats.

That's not Chicago, IL in that list though right?

It's Chicago HEIGHTS, IL.

Different city.

And EAST Chicago, IN.

Different STATE.

You have to be careful when you read these lists. For instance, there are a lot of Pine Bluffs in the United States, so you want to be sure that you talk about the right one when discussing murder rates.

But even if you only count the murder rate...

Chicago... the Chicago that we're discussing on this thread... would not make the list of the top 30 as is plainly evident.

there are far, far worse places than Chicago in the US. Lots of them. And there are far, far better places than Chicago in the US. Lots of them.

Same is even more true about India, yet it doesn't stop many people from calling it rape capital of the world.

this is inspite of it having extremely low rape incidences as a %.

People have no clue how large and diverse the place is and are always generalizing.

and I have very rarely come across police misbehaving the way I read here or even come across violent street crimes. I am sure it occurs though as the films love portraying the extreme scenarios but the ordinary person isn't scared for his/her life or safety.

Almost every city is drastically different in America.

Even including the "safe" parts of the US in the equation the murders per capita rate is three times higher than Serbia. If you count police shootings the numbers get so crazy compared to any other first world country it is pretty safe to say there is a problem.

Not at all.

For example New Hampshire has a murder rate much lower than Serbia, England, or France. It is more on lines with Germany.

Also, everyone collects murder states differently. The US usually publishes states from the FBI, whose logic is basically "there is a dead body and it looks like someone else did it". The UK, on the other hand, has the Home Office publish murder rates in terms of convictions, which necessarily will be less than the number of bodies.

Didn't Serbia have a massive civil war just few years ago?

Compared to where?

I like the list. It's easier than debating.

Between 15.5 and 40, pulled over for no apparent reason at least 20 times. I'm giving them the benefit of memory with the number. I was guilty of driving an older car, hair slightly below my ears, and the ultimate sin; driving after 10 p.m. Friday-Saturday.

Told to empty out my pockets because I was talking to a homlessness person.

At least three tickets, where I honestly didn't know what law I broke. I once kindly asked the officer to diagram what I did wrong. He did and even initialed it. Street wrong, wrong color car. He didn't show up n court. (Highway Patrol harldy ever shows up, and they are well coached. Local cops will always show up--there's not much to do in the burbs.)

Watch my dad get out of a DUI, because he as giving a get out of jail card. His buddy gave him his detective's business card, with some scribbling on back.

Done Coke at two different parties, and the supplier were both in law enforcement. Great Coke--I guess? (I was much younger, and honestly, really didn't even like the Coke effects. I think I was drinking too much at the party? I'm no angel.)

In college, I worked as a life guard. The lonely Sherriff would hang with us. He would leave a party if mariguana was in the air, but would get stinky drunk, and drive us around. When we got pulled over, he would Just pull out the Bagde. Yes--I went along. Never like the hypocracy of the dude.

Watched a Francisco cop drive my high school sister, and her model friend to the north side of the bridge, actually they escorted her. They allowed her to drive drunk. One then asked for her phone number. Yes--it's great they didn't ticket/arrest her, but only because she was young, and attractive.

Listen to my dad complain about his cop best friend who just played chess in the basement of the corner building. My dad thought they should be out cruising for the bad guys. I asked my father, "Wouldn't you rather them playing chess, over looking for cheezy tickets?" Father, "Well yes." (I see nothing wrong with doing nothing while on shift, especially in low crime areas. And I don't expect cops to risk their lives. Honestly.)

What has this thought me; buy two cheap dash cams from China. $15 a piece. Just don't drive certain nights. If you are going to go to the evil bar/hootenanny, buy a $19 breath analyzer at Costco.

I can't imagine what minorites have been through, as I am a white dude. Am I an angel--hell no. I guess I'm just unlucky? When I was younger, I honestly didn't think slightly longer hair, and a VW would equate with being harassed, but it did. Do I get harrrased as much now--no. I don't go out like I did, and I drive a car that's inconspicuous, with no bumper stickers. I once put a Police Officers Association sticker on my rear window; trying to invoke reverse psychology. Well it just bought in a red brick.

Do I see people being treated like they had no rights--hell yes, more than ever. The image of a women being forced to empty her purse because she was sitting on the sidewalk is my latest imprint. She was bum rushed by five cops, and a particularly eager female cop whom frisked her too agressively. They left her alone after finding nothing suspicious in her purse, but took her picture. Love to take those pictures?

Again I know they have a tough job, but don't make up tickets. Get to know the law--other than on the job. Oh yea, we all don't get roaring drunk when we go out? You might, but most of us don't. We are not, "Just like you on our days off?". As to the danger of the job; I do morn the death of an honest cop, but actually deaths are higher in construction/taxi cab drivers.

I guess what I'm trying to say is don't stereotype, and make up drama. I'm wondering if I'll live to see the day where I don't cringe when a cruiser is behind me? Done!

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