The fights are so vicious because the stakes are so small. (Originally said about academics, but works for programmers, too.)
Special case in programming -- "colour of the bikeshed" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parkinson%27s_Law_of_Triviality
I'd like to quotes these cool stuff as well, just need a way to look it up :)
I use both Ruby and Python enough to appreciate that both languages generally make important tradeoffs with good intentions, but I don't always agree with the results (in either language). I also find Javascript often has an interesting relationship to both languages.
Just ask the protestants and the catholics.
However, we can sometimes mistake _subtle_ differences for _small_ ones; but just as there's a substantial difference between the Mac OS and Windows, there's a substantial difference between Catholicism and Calvinism (which was the most successful form of Protestantism) -- the difference between God seeing that you went to Hell, and God sending you there. I could go into much greater detail (I count nine paragraphs in how I'd previously structured this comment), but that's the nutshell of the nutshell.
There's a joke about that, I looked it up:
I was walking across a bridge one day, and I saw a man standing on the edge, about to jump off. So I ran over and said “Stop! don’t do it!” “Why shouldn’t I?” he said. I said, “Well, there’s so much to live for!” He said, “Like what?”
I said, “Well, are you religious or atheist?” He said, “Religious.”
I said, “Me too! …Are you Christian or Buddhist?” He said, “Christian.”
I said, “Me too! …Are you Catholic or Protestant?” He said, “Protestant.”
I said, “Me too! …Are you Episcopalian or Baptist?” He said, “Baptist!”
I said, “Wow! Me too!…Are you Baptist church of God or Baptist church of the Lord?” He said, “Baptist church of God!”
I said, “Me too! Are you original Baptist church of God, or are you reformed Baptist church of God?” He said, “Reformed Baptist church of God!”
I said, “Me too! Are you reformed Baptist church of God, reformation of 1879, or reformed Baptist church of God, reformation of 1915?”
He said, “Reformed Baptist church of God, reformation of 1915!”
I said, “Die, heretic scum” and pushed him off.. — Emo Phillips
Calvinism had _huge_ practical consequences -- in social policy, it's the difference between ensuring that the poor are fed and sheltered, and kicking them into the street; and you can only imagine what it meant for the laws of war...
Edit: And the joke you mention is only too recognizable, but it's more like the Catholicism-and-Orthodoxy situation, where it's a matter of tribal loyalties more than views of the world...
Then again, programming language is a very personal choice for many, so if you insult a language, you insult the person. There aren't many polyglot programmers that are detached from their preferred language.
For me, I prefer Python, but I'm not going to blindly defend it.
I might be wrong, but I really can't mention any other group of people trolling Perl discussions. It is the same for Ruby?
It really seems strange for a language which got the name from Monthy Python. (-: Is it some inferiority feelings to environments which are fun? :-)
the party line seems to be "this is the way we do
things, if you like what you see, come on in, if not,
no worries"
After all, one would have to be a "Rube (that's what [Ruby developers are] called, right?)" to think that Python developers aren't friendly to people who don't worship Python.
There are always bashers. Their existence proves nothing. The question is whether they represent the bulk of the community. It's hard to speak for an entire community, but it is certainly true that the Python community leaders are not into bashing other languages routinely.
you're by far the flamiest person here.
Python community leaders are not into bashing other languages routinely
> Indeed, this is true. It's unfortunate that so many python developers don't follow suit.
Do you have any numbers to back any of this up? Is it possible that Python just happens to have a small number of really vocal hyper-proponents that feel the need to bash everything else? Could it just be that you aren't a Python programmer so you take more offense to your language being bashed and therefore notice if more often than others?
Does 'Rube' have a negative connotation attached to it?
Do you have any numbers to back any of this up?
Could it just be that you aren't a Python programmer
your language
Honestly, I find it interesting that people assume someone doesn't use Python just because they call out Team Python on their non-stop trolling and language-bashing. "Either you're with us or against us," apparently. Big surprise.
Yes, it does. Rubyists are typically called Rubyists or Ruby hackers if one does not wish to insult them. Calling a Rubyist ia "Rube" would be like calling a Pythonista a "Pyker" (reference to [piker](http://education.yahoo.com/reference/dictionary/entry/piker), definition 2).
> Maybe I just haven't participated in enough Python-Ruby flamewars to know all of the 'secret' lingo that's only offensive to you if you are already part of that flamewar culture?
There's nothing "secret" about the insulting character of the term "rube".
On the other hand, if you're looking to be offended to prove a point about who is "flamier", you've succeeded.
You lost me here. PHP is the favorite flogging-boy language of a lot of developers from a lot of different environments. Trying to peg this solely on Python developers/flamers is disingenuous. You might as well try to claim that Python developers are responsible for all of the Microsoft (and/or .Net/ASP/C#) bashing that goes on around the web.
Yeah, that's the "this is the way we do things" part, but that's a different issue. Things like PEP-8 and a measure of how "Pythonic" something is helps make one of Python's biggest strengths, the "batteries included" easier to accomplish and easier to understand, because there is a consistent standard. Of course, not all code, even in the stdlib, is up to that standard, but it's more consistent than a lot of libraries you'll find.
The point I was making, and the difference from a lot of language communities I've seen is that there is little of this hyperbolic "That's not even possible in [insert-language-here]" nonsense. The Python programmers I tend to interact with don't really mind if you don't use Python, because at the end of the day, almost every language has the necessary features to Get Stuff Done.
Speaking of which ...
I was, however, saddened by the fact that almost every single time I've seen a Pythonista talk about how nice Pythonistas are, the comment has included a dig at people who use other languages like that. The probability seems to run in the 90%+ range.
In less than 10 minutes after posting anything remotely negative about Haskell, I have a horde of angry fanboys telling me how I am an idiot.
I guess that may (or may not) show that a single language can be part of different cultures.
Everyone is out trolling the Perl discussions. PHP developers hate us, Java developers hate us, Ruby developers hate us, and Python developers hate us. I think this is funny, because we generally don't hate the other languages, we just embrace and extend their good ideas for Perl. (The Perl community has come up with a few good ideas on their own, but the best ideas have been borrowed from other languages. Moose is from Smalltalk and CL; PSGI is from Python; Plack is from Ruby; Catalyst is from Java; etc. I think, in general, the stolen ideas have been improved upon in Perl; I like using Moose a lot more than I like using CLOS -- and I like using CLOS a lot.)
The only place outside of the Perl community where I can admit to liking Perl (and not be flamed) is #haskell. But everyone is nice there.
(I've even been trolled in real life over my like of Perl. I was going after some girl, who apparently had a friend that was a Java developer. Perl came up, I came up, and it was resolved "he must not be very good at programming if he prefers Perl over Java". Guess who got the girl? Not the Perl programmer.)
... and Perl 6.
Wait. Ruby? What? Did you have a bad experience with some Rails people and decide that Ruby developers hate Perl?
As someone who loves both Perl and Ruby, I haven't seen any Perl hate from Ruby developers in general. I can't vouch for Rails people, though. There are some serious social dysfunctions in that community.
> The only place outside of the Perl community where I can admit to liking Perl (and not be flamed) is #haskell.
I haven't gotten into Haskell (yet) -- but I've never gotten any shit on the ruby-talk list for "admitting" that I like Perl.
> (I've even been trolled in real life over my like of Perl. I was going after some girl, who apparently had a friend that was a Java developer. Perl came up, I came up, and it was resolved "he must not be very good at programming if he prefers Perl over Java". Guess who got the girl? Not the Perl programmer.)
Wow. WTF?
I have gotten shit from Pythonistas in person a couple of times for liking Perl, but nothing nearly that bad -- just as I have for preferring FreeBSD over "Linux".
In general, the hackers I know dislike Java, so I haven't really had the opportunity to get treated that badly by a Java developer. Maybe I'm just lucky.