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Comment by old-gregg | Hacker News Reader

As someone who did nothing but Rails since 06 (two Rails-powered startups, plus some Rails contracting), allow me to explain why I dumped Ruby/Rails and switched to Python/Pylons.

Batteries. Ruby is great, but outside of Rails you are on your own. Even basic things like geometry needs to be coded by hand. Python (and almost anything else) simply destroys Ruby when it comes to generic non-web centric libraries. And the situation isn't changing: most new Ruby "libraries" are just add-ons to Rails, seriously, how many Rails unit testing frameworks, paginators and file upload handlers do we need?

People. Python hackers are much, much nicer folks to hang around with. I don't like to start a war here so I'll refrain from going further with this point. Besides, I feel like Zed Shaw said it all.

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Do you really have to switch from one to another? I learned both languages, love them both, and use them both. There's too much hate in the world of programming languages.

The fights are so vicious because the stakes are so small. (Originally said about academics, but works for programmers, too.)

I have the definitive impression that the Pythonistas are more interested in this fighting than most other language cultures.

I might be wrong, but I really can't mention any other group of people trolling Perl discussions. It is the same for Ruby?

It really seems strange for a language which got the name from Monthy Python. (-: Is it some inferiority feelings to environments which are fun? :-)

I've found quite the opposite; my experience with Python users has been consistently personable. If anything, the party line seems to be "this is the way we do things, if you like what you see, come on in, if not, no worries". I mean, this whole article is really just a troll post on Python by a Rube (that's what they're called, right?)

    the party line seems to be "this is the way we do
    things, if you like what you see, come on in, if not, 
    no worries"

That is absolutely not the case; Python is the anti-TMTOWTDI. The Python community is very vocal and explicit about the conventions developers are expected to follow, more so than any other language I'm aware of: PEP 8, Zen of Python, non-stop critiques about whether some code is "pythonic" enough.

There's a difference between "why aren't you using Python?" and "why aren't you following standard Python coding conventions?".

Ah, I see. So what you are tying to say is that the non-stop bashing of Perl, PHP and Ruby from Python developers should be interpreted as just a friendly "if [you don't like python], no worries."

After all, one would have to be a "Rube (that's what [Ruby developers are] called, right?)" to think that Python developers aren't friendly to people who don't worship Python.

Nah. Anecdotes are anecdotes.

I just browsed over this entire thread, and you're by far the flamiest person here.

There are always bashers. Their existence proves nothing. The question is whether they represent the bulk of the community. It's hard to speak for an entire community, but it is certainly true that the Python community leaders are not into bashing other languages routinely.

    you're by far the flamiest person here.

Flamier than the person who called Ruby developers "Rubes" after claiming Python is friendly to other developers? Interesting.

    Python community leaders are not into bashing other languages routinely

Indeed, this is true. It's unfortunate that so many python developers don't follow suit.

Does 'Rube' have a negative connotation attached to it? I mean we're calling Python devs 'Pythonistas,' which I also don't necessarily associate with negative connotations. Maybe I just haven't participated in enough Python-Ruby flamewars to know all of the 'secret' lingo that's only offensive to you if you are already part of that flamewar culture?

> Indeed, this is true. It's unfortunate that so many python developers don't follow suit.

Do you have any numbers to back any of this up? Is it possible that Python just happens to have a small number of really vocal hyper-proponents that feel the need to bash everything else? Could it just be that you aren't a Python programmer so you take more offense to your language being bashed and therefore notice if more often than others?

    Does 'Rube' have a negative connotation attached to it?

Yes, and it's been a common insult for at least a century: http://www.google.com/dictionary?aq=f&langpair=en|en&...

    Do you have any numbers to back any of this up?

We don't need to look any further than this thread: 30 points on the initial Ruby/Rails-bashing rant that also insults Ruby developers, 6 points on tghw's comment that insults Ruby developers with outright name-calling. Par for the course.

    Could it just be that you aren't a Python programmer

No, considering I've been using python on and off for almost a decade now.

    your language

Or it could be that there is no "[my] language" and I'm just willing to call out rampant hypocrisy and language-bashing when I see it.

Honestly, I find it interesting that people assume someone doesn't use Python just because they call out Team Python on their non-stop trolling and language-bashing. "Either you're with us or against us," apparently. Big surprise.

> Does 'Rube' have a negative connotation attached to it?

Yes, it does. Rubyists are typically called Rubyists or Ruby hackers if one does not wish to insult them. Calling a Rubyist ia "Rube" would be like calling a Pythonista a "Pyker" (reference to [piker](http://education.yahoo.com/reference/dictionary/entry/piker), definition 2).

> Maybe I just haven't participated in enough Python-Ruby flamewars to know all of the 'secret' lingo that's only offensive to you if you are already part of that flamewar culture?

There's nothing "secret" about the insulting character of the term "rube".

The "Rube" comment was a joke, not a serious insult. If it genuinely offended you, I apologize.

On the other hand, if you're looking to be offended to prove a point about who is "flamier", you've succeeded.

> the non-stop bashing of [...] PHP [...] from Python developers

You lost me here. PHP is the favorite flogging-boy language of a lot of developers from a lot of different environments. Trying to peg this solely on Python developers/flamers is disingenuous. You might as well try to claim that Python developers are responsible for all of the Microsoft (and/or .Net/ASP/C#) bashing that goes on around the web.

I thought including PHP in that litany of crimes was a little weird, too. I mean . . . PHP actually deserves it.

The Python community is very vocal and explicit about the conventions developers are expected to follow, more so than any other language I'm aware of: PEP 8, Zen of Python, non-stop critiques about whether some code is "pythonic" enough.

Yeah, that's the "this is the way we do things" part, but that's a different issue. Things like PEP-8 and a measure of how "Pythonic" something is helps make one of Python's biggest strengths, the "batteries included" easier to accomplish and easier to understand, because there is a consistent standard. Of course, not all code, even in the stdlib, is up to that standard, but it's more consistent than a lot of libraries you'll find.

The point I was making, and the difference from a lot of language communities I've seen is that there is little of this hyperbolic "That's not even possible in [insert-language-here]" nonsense. The Python programmers I tend to interact with don't really mind if you don't use Python, because at the end of the day, almost every language has the necessary features to Get Stuff Done.

" ... just a troll post on Python by a Rube (that's what they're called, right?)"

Speaking of which ...

It was just a joke, no offense intended. Apologies to any Rubyist who was offended.

I don't think anyone was offended, but it's exactly the sort of thing some people like to jump on and say, "See? See? That's what I'm talking about!"

I love Ruby. I don't really like Python as much (Python and I have irreconcilable philosophical and code-formatting differences). I was not offended.

I was, however, saddened by the fact that almost every single time I've seen a Pythonista talk about how nice Pythonistas are, the comment has included a dig at people who use other languages like that. The probability seems to run in the 90%+ range.

Python is a dogmatic language. For the language, this is a good thing, helping it stay clean, simple and yet still powerful. But for the community, it breeds rabid fanboys, just like everything else that's dogmatic.

I don't know. Haskell is quite dogmatic in some ways. The people on the Haskell cafe mailing list don't strike me as rabid fanboys.

You must be joking. People like Dons run or use a blog spidering program for anything that mentions Haskell.

In less than 10 minutes after posting anything remotely negative about Haskell, I have a horde of angry fanboys telling me how I am an idiot.

You may be right. That's why I only talked about the stuff I have some experience with, and that's the civilized Haskell cafe mailing list.

I guess that may (or may not) show that a single language can be part of different cultures.

Really, now? I can't say I've ever seen dons be anything other than polite and helpful. Not to mention that he's one of the most knowledgeable Haskell programmers out there, especially on the "practical real world use" front.

I might be wrong, but I really can't mention any other group of people trolling Perl discussions.

Everyone is out trolling the Perl discussions. PHP developers hate us, Java developers hate us, Ruby developers hate us, and Python developers hate us. I think this is funny, because we generally don't hate the other languages, we just embrace and extend their good ideas for Perl. (The Perl community has come up with a few good ideas on their own, but the best ideas have been borrowed from other languages. Moose is from Smalltalk and CL; PSGI is from Python; Plack is from Ruby; Catalyst is from Java; etc. I think, in general, the stolen ideas have been improved upon in Perl; I like using Moose a lot more than I like using CLOS -- and I like using CLOS a lot.)

The only place outside of the Perl community where I can admit to liking Perl (and not be flamed) is #haskell. But everyone is nice there.

(I've even been trolled in real life over my like of Perl. I was going after some girl, who apparently had a friend that was a Java developer. Perl came up, I came up, and it was resolved "he must not be very good at programming if he prefers Perl over Java". Guess who got the girl? Not the Perl programmer.)

> Moose is from Smalltalk and CL...

... and Perl 6.

Yes, you're right. Adding state to traits is definitely a Perl 6 innovation.

> PHP developers hate us, Java developers hate us, Ruby developers hate us, and Python developers hate us.

Wait. Ruby? What? Did you have a bad experience with some Rails people and decide that Ruby developers hate Perl?

As someone who loves both Perl and Ruby, I haven't seen any Perl hate from Ruby developers in general. I can't vouch for Rails people, though. There are some serious social dysfunctions in that community.

> The only place outside of the Perl community where I can admit to liking Perl (and not be flamed) is #haskell.

I haven't gotten into Haskell (yet) -- but I've never gotten any shit on the ruby-talk list for "admitting" that I like Perl.

> (I've even been trolled in real life over my like of Perl. I was going after some girl, who apparently had a friend that was a Java developer. Perl came up, I came up, and it was resolved "he must not be very good at programming if he prefers Perl over Java". Guess who got the girl? Not the Perl programmer.)

Wow. WTF?

I have gotten shit from Pythonistas in person a couple of times for liking Perl, but nothing nearly that bad -- just as I have for preferring FreeBSD over "Linux".

In general, the hackers I know dislike Java, so I haven't really had the opportunity to get treated that badly by a Java developer. Maybe I'm just lucky.

I've seen one Pythonista troll the ruby-talk mailing list. I have no idea whether any Rubyists troll Python's main community venue -- but if there are any, I'm pretty sure they're probably Rails people, which really have their own, separate community.

I don't think the fights should be vicious, but I think the stakes are fairly high, and even though Ruby and Python are close cousins in the grand scheme of things, they really do represent profoundly different philosophies when you look more closely at the languages. It would be nice if these differences could always be discussed with civility, of course.

I use both Ruby and Python enough to appreciate that both languages generally make important tradeoffs with good intentions, but I don't always agree with the results (in either language). I also find Javascript often has an interesting relationship to both languages.

That's just another reason for vicious fights besides small stakes, small differences.

Just ask the protestants and the catholics.

It is true that small differences can mean large conflicts, but I think Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy is a better illustration of this. The only doctrine that the two denominations disagreed on was the exact way in which the Pope is higher-ranked than the other metropolitan bishops; this plus language barriers and differences in cultural atmosphere produced something like 1500 years of mutual hostility which were only ended by John Paul II.

However, we can sometimes mistake _subtle_ differences for _small_ ones; but just as there's a substantial difference between the Mac OS and Windows, there's a substantial difference between Catholicism and Calvinism (which was the most successful form of Protestantism) -- the difference between God seeing that you went to Hell, and God sending you there. I could go into much greater detail (I count nine paragraphs in how I'd previously structured this comment), but that's the nutshell of the nutshell.

When looking at this from an atheists perspective it looks like very minor differences to me.

There's a joke about that, I looked it up:

I was walking across a bridge one day, and I saw a man standing on the edge, about to jump off. So I ran over and said “Stop! don’t do it!” “Why shouldn’t I?” he said. I said, “Well, there’s so much to live for!” He said, “Like what?”

I said, “Well, are you religious or atheist?” He said, “Religious.”

I said, “Me too! …Are you Christian or Buddhist?” He said, “Christian.”

I said, “Me too! …Are you Catholic or Protestant?” He said, “Protestant.”

I said, “Me too! …Are you Episcopalian or Baptist?” He said, “Baptist!”

I said, “Wow! Me too!…Are you Baptist church of God or Baptist church of the Lord?” He said, “Baptist church of God!”

I said, “Me too! Are you original Baptist church of God, or are you reformed Baptist church of God?” He said, “Reformed Baptist church of God!”

I said, “Me too! Are you reformed Baptist church of God, reformation of 1879, or reformed Baptist church of God, reformation of 1915?”

He said, “Reformed Baptist church of God, reformation of 1915!”

I said, “Die, heretic scum” and pushed him off.. — Emo Phillips

@jacquesm: At least from my perspective, "God wants everyone to go to Heaven" and "God wants some people to go to Hell" are further apart than "God wants everyone to go to Heaven" and "there is no God, and the universe developed through chance and emergent patterns."

Calvinism had _huge_ practical consequences -- in social policy, it's the difference between ensuring that the poor are fed and sheltered, and kicking them into the street; and you can only imagine what it meant for the laws of war...

Edit: And the joke you mention is only too recognizable, but it's more like the Catholicism-and-Orthodoxy situation, where it's a matter of tribal loyalties more than views of the world...

I thought that was originally said about college student government/politics...

Then again, programming language is a very personal choice for many, so if you insult a language, you insult the person. There aren't many polyglot programmers that are detached from their preferred language.

For me, I prefer Python, but I'm not going to blindly defend it.

Sayer's Law: "In any dispute the intensity of feeling is inversely proportional to the value of the stakes at issue." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sayre%27s_Law

Special case in programming -- "colour of the bikeshed" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parkinson%27s_Law_of_Triviality

Offtopic question: where can I get a hierarchical category/index/guideline to many of these * laws ?

I'd like to quotes these cool stuff as well, just need a way to look it up :)

This is pretty close to what you're looking for, I think: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Adages

that's exactly what I am looking for. Thanks

Switching between languages based on context is good; you might have a favorite pet language for desktop work, embedded work, iPhone work, and web work. But splitting your brain cells between languages for the same sort of task, in the case web development, isn't very efficient.

I have to do it, for different platforms, but that means I'm constantly switching between design techniques and I can't reuse one body of common code.

It just makes sense to put all your eggs in one basket and make the switch. However, it's important to have a healthy respect for other languages and their pros and cons compared to your own choice.

I reuse code a lot. If I write code in Ruby, I can't reuse it in a Python project. Since Python and Ruby occupy the same niche, I will often want to reuse code.

(This is less of an issue if I want to use Python and C++. I'll rarely want to reuse linear programming code or a PDE solver in Python, and if I did, I would just wrap the C++. Similarly, I never want to use code I've written for the web in C++.)

And if you did, it isn't really that hideous to embed the python interpreter in your C++ app...

Using a dynamic loadable C library from Ruby is neat and easy.

You don't have to choose a single option, even for a particular project. I've worked on websites/apps that have integrated 2 or 3 different server-side languages and frameworks. If you have a programmer that says "eww I'm not touching the WordPress part because it's in PHP" they just aren't the kind of programmer I want working on the project. Also, if you have a programmer that goes out an freaking re-implements WordPress in Ruby on Rails simply to avoid using a second tool, they probably aren't commercially viable and I don't want them either.

There is a drawback to this, obviously. If your codebase is some scattered mish mash of Python, PHP, Actionscript, Javascript, Java, etc, your ability to reuse code diminishes at the language boundaries. You end up having to write very similar code to deal with the same objects on the client side and the server side in multiple languages, producing more code to maintain overall.

Unfortunately because of the nature of the web I haven't seen any real good solution to this yet. At minimum, you're usually dealing with some combination of Python/Ruby/PHP backend and some amount of Javascript/Actionscript on the frontend.

True, though I don't want to leave you with the impression that it's a mish mash implementation. It's more of a silo'd approach. One section of the website might be a wiki, so we use a particular tool there. It's a self-contained unit but perhaps pulling in some common stylesheets to retain a consistent look and feel. Another section might be a blog part of the site. Again, it might pull in some common assets for the consistent look and feel.

Instead of thinking of code re-use, we're left with a UNIX style resource re-use. Every component can stand alone, but they all work in conjunction with each other and can be re-arranged to work in different ways.

If I start every conversation with Python developers with a rant about how their language/frameworks suck I'm sure they wouldn't be very friendly with me.

What if you start a conversation without any mention of Python at all?

> People. Python hackers are much, much nicer folks to hang around with. I don't like to start a war here so I'll refrain from going further with this point. Besides, I feel like Zed Shaw said it all.

I don't buy this point. I think you're confusing what Zed said about the Rails community with the reality of the Ruby community. Frankly, from what I've seen, the Rails community is a bit of a ghetto within the larger Ruby community.

I've also seen a lot of what amounts to acrimony and vitriol from Pythonistas when discussing other languages, where Rubyists (not Rails developers, specifically, but people in the broader Ruby community) have tended to be much more appreciative of what developers in other language communities, and other languages, bring to the party.

What's the difference between a Rubyist response to a Python way of doing things and a Pythonista response to a Ruby way of doing things? In my experience, the Rubyist says "Hey, that's kinda neat -- but it's not for me," but the Pythonista says "You're doing it wrong."

I never choose python like my script language because I don't like the arrogance of pythonist, more now when everybody knows google use python for everything, in python all is perfect and the other languages are crap, I always read articles like this o like python paradox or any other superficial article where the author try feign know others languages for criticize it with "solid arguments" ruby is a infant and don't try compare his libraries w any other language because It's very unfair, but really my questions is WHY PYTHONIST CONCERNED SO MUCH THE OTHERS LANGUAGES?, why they need type all days a new article explain the good language is python or the bad are all others (like java, c#, ruby, perl) I don't kwnow, please explain me it...and don't say the python hacker are much nicer because they are nicer only inside conversations with others pythonist......

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