Hacker News Reader

Comment by amagumori | Hacker News Reader

This is what happens when frat boys get jobs. I think one piece of the puzzle is fostering less misogynistic environments in college, before these dudes enter the workforce.

But seriously, how fucking disgusting. This article ruined my morning, I'm pissed off now.

View on HN

> This is what happens when frat boys get jobs

Why do you think it is OK make a massive generalization about a group of people like that? While I wasn't personally involved in Greek life during college, I have very good friends that were upstanding and principled members of fraternities that would certainly abhor the horrific and abusive behavior described in this article.

If you met a nice person today and later found out they were in a fraternity during college, would you immediately make judgements about their morals and conduct just based on that association?

Yeah. Yeah i would, honestly. There's always the exception to the rule, but we're talking about systemic issues, not playing the "but not all men..!" game. Refer to my other reply but when you put people who have grown up in a racist and sexist society into a racially and sexually homogeneous group where they spend most of their time, racist and sexist attitudes will be fostered in the absence of accountability. (Which u don't have, because racially and sexually homogeneous.)

You know, I've had people assume I was an inferior software developer solely because I was in a social fraternity and therefore must not have spent any time studying for my exams or working on my problem sets. That's not really a nice prior to have about an individual, sort of how it would be considered quite offensive to assume that a woman were an inferior software developer due to her gender.

Additionally, I'm not going to pretend that Greek life is 100% free of douchebaggery. Some people in fraternities do bad things to other people, or harbor bigoted worldviews. I feel that you grossly overestimate the proportion of people who do. To address the racial and sexual homogeneity point, I'm fairly confident that every single fraternity at my alma mater had individuals of color and homosexual individuals. My own certainly did.

I'd also like to point out the obvious blanket statements you've made about the demographics and attitudes of fraternity members. However, I really don't think anyone or anything can budge your opinion.

I understand that it is true that some fraternities have systemic issues with racism and misogyny, but isn't that a dangerous road to go down? Would it be OK for me to make judgements about the attitudes towards the treatment of women of my Muslim colleagues and acquaintances, without knowing anything else about them? Or would it be acceptable for me to make assumptions about the criminal history of acquaintances, just because they grew up in a "racially homogeneous" area that statistically has higher rates of crime?

While I accept that some social associations may have disturbing incidences of systemic problems that must be addressed, I strongly disagree that it is OK to make judgements and assumptions about individual people without knowing anything about who they are as a person.

There are plenty of frat boys that aren't assholes. There are plenty of assholes that are borne of other stimuli.

I can agree on "disgusting," though. The wage gap's prevalence at Wall Street is unforgivable and needs to be fixed.

Frats are like the perfect petri dish for misogynism and racism. You get a bunch of white guys together in a usually racially and always sexually homogeneous club, and these kids, who don't know much about the world yet, suddenly don't have to be accountable for saying racist or sexist things. I have watched friends of mine from high school join a frat in college, and you know what? They mostly turned into douchenozzles.

Compare to something like the punk scene where radical politics, antiracism, lgbt rights, antimisogyny are almost prerequisites for membership, the community is diverse, and racism/sexism/homophobia are often called out on the spot...you see ppl go in with hateful attitudes and come out more tolerant people.

There are white frats, black frats, party frats, and studious frats. You can justify generalizing all you want but it still reeks of ignorance.

I'm sorry that some of your friends from highschool turned into douchenozzles, I'm sure if they didn't join a frat they'd be outstanding citizens.

I get what you're saying, but surely you can meet the OP somewhere closer to the middle? Fraternities seem to have done their part to earn their poor reputation, if one extrapolates from the information most of us are exposed to. When incidents of racism are publicized, they usually have to do with fraternity members. When incidents of the worst kinds of misogeny are publicized, they usually have to do with fraternity members. Those of us who are grossed out by frats aren't making this stuff up.

Obviously the apparent trend could be wrong. You could argue that mainstream media is unfairly biased against fraternities. Or that the good (or boring) frats don't do anything sensational. But, in that case, your argument shouldn't be, "You should never generalize!!" The response to that knee-jerk reaction is, "Um... I'm not blind. I read what I read. I see what I see. I have experienced what I have experienced, and it tells me that frat boys are assholes." Instead you could acknowledge that the apparent trend exists and is real, but provide evidence or reasoning for the trend being misleading.

The burden of proof is on the commenter that generalized. The plural of anecdote is not data. Generalizing that widely without very explicit proof is a pretty poor idea, from an argumentative standpoint.

Meanwhile, plenty of frats also do projects that improve their communities and campuses, and raise money for good causes. The "apparent trend" doesn't exist, and if it does I'll ask you to prove it.

The "apparent trend" doesn't exist

Prove the "apparent trend" exists? Okay, let's try to "prove" it to you. I just did the following google search: site:cnn.com "fraternity members". Let's see what the "apparent trend" is! Starting at the top:

1. Pi Delta Psi members charged in hazing incident

2. Video shows chilling aftermath of university shooting (victims AND actor(s) were fraternity members/pledges, btw)

3. Zeta Beta Tau fraternity members disrespected us, wounded veterans say

4. New clues in death of Clemson fraternity pledge Tucker Hipps (this one's about hazing)

5. Schools knew of trouble before student deaths (hazing)

6. Video shows chilling aftermath of university shooting (same incident as 2.)

7. Sigma Nu frat at Old Dominion suspended for offensive banners

8. SAE brothers at OU facing death threats, assaults, lawyer says (don't get the title wrong, this one is as much about the racist chants of SAE frat members caught on video as it is about the death threats they received afterward)

9. U. of Oklahoma fraternity shuttered after racist chant

10. Fraternities: 'A form of American apartheid' (Opinion)

So, you still think the "apparent trend" doesn't exist? You could get similar results doing an informal poll. Just walk around asking people who weren't in a frat, "What do you think of frats?"

As I said originally, all of this could be biased and misleading and just plain wrong. But not at least saying "Yeah, I admit, frats appear to be pretty fucked up" is just disingenuous and isn't going to convince anyone.

The burden of proof is on the commenter that generalized.. The plural of anecdote is not data... Generalizing that widely without very explicit proof is a pretty poor idea, from an argumentative standpoint.... and if it does I'll ask you to prove it

As a skeptic myself, the fact that so many of us can't seem to understand that human lives and opinions are not run by deductive reasoning and exhaustive proofs really does us a disservice. If you want to change minds and make real change, you should get to know how people think. If you want to be considered an out-of-touch blow-hard, keep on talking about the burden of proof. Trust me, I've been that guy, I know.

I realize I may have been fairly harsh in my choice of words. I'm making a note now not to get so angry.

I can admit that the media portrays frats as "fucked up", I just don't agree that that's the truth. I think I may have misread your argument, or in any case responded to the wrong part of it.

I agree that frats could be kept under better watch by universities and colleges, and that those specific case that you show shouldn't have happened.

At the same time, though, frats are not just a means to an end for partying and racism at college. This much is clear because of the good many frats do for their communities.

I'll concede that there's an apparent trend portrayed by the media. I just disagree with it.

> out-of-touch blow-hard

I'll agree with this one too. Sorry.

> The plural of anecdote is not data.

I never understood this sentiment. That's exactly what data is; we call them surveys or polls.

Anecdotes often lack rigidity or quantification, and they may be based on preconceived notions rather than genuine hypotheses.

You're right in a sense, but you have to be careful as to how you sample anecdotes for them to be factual rather than anecdotal evidence. "I talked to some guys from a frat and they were mean, thus all frat guys are mean" does not logically follow.

You know you're just making the case for sterotyping without using the word "sterotype", right?

I'm not being snarky, for the purpose of this post I'll explicitly state I'm not making the case that all stereotyping is bad (and not not saying that either). It's much easier to make the case that frats in general are too amalgamous to be held to their sterotype, and that frat membership is not a prerequisite to fitting the sterotype.

You know you're just making the case for sterotyping without using the word "sterotype", right?

No, I don't know where you get that from. I'm not arguing that prejudicial stereotypes are good or should be used. I'm suggesting that the strategy of pretending a stereotype doesn't exist is a poor strategy for fighting the use of prejudicial stereotypes.

We all know our brains are unbelievably bad at statistics. You're not going to get humans to all of a sudden start applying rigorous probabilistic analysis and deductive reasoning to inform their opinions.

You can give statistical reasoning to your white friends for why they shouldn't cross the street when they see a group of brown or black kids dressed "like gang members" up ahead. You might be right, and they might even agree. And guess how much difference that will make the next time the situation comes up?

It's a strategy that's as ignorant of human nature as Communism and just as likely to be successful.

Just wanna say that I don't think "white" is a requirement. It's the homogeneity of culture, background, and privilege level that makes it possible, though those things are pretty highly correlated with whiteness in the USA.

There's some irony in the fact that you wrote a bunch of fairly intolerant generalizations while mentioning hatefulness and tolerance.

Your friends from high school are responsible for themselves. Consider for a moment that perhaps your friends just grew up to be "douchenozzles" on their own, without the influence of a frat.

Your assertion that frats are racially homogenous is outright wrong and I'll ask you to cite your claims. And you think some members of frats aren't gay or similar?

Something something, generalization, plural of anecdote...

For someone who champions tolerance, you don't play the role very well.

>This is what happens when frat boys get jobs. I think one piece of the puzzle is fostering less misogynistic environments in college, before these dudes enter the workforce.

Considering how long it took us to learn the societal lessons of how wrong it was to oppress the chosen lifestyles of the gay and lesbian community, the black community and the Jewish community, I'd be surprised you'd be so keen to start institutionally crushing someone else's chosen lifestyle simply because it distresses you to be around them. Live and let live and it takes all sorts to make the world goes both ways.

None of them should have careers because they are in a group that you don't like.... Any comment on Turing yet? Wanna take back your previous comments?

Why would I want to? Based on your persistant but unpersuasive stalking of my comments, you've clearly done something you know is wrong, and I remain convinced that you should be segregated from tech development for the safety of end users and other developers alike.

It seems you are letting your (justified) anger at the situation to cloud your judgement so much so that you fail to see the irony of how similar your generalization rhetoric is to those used in environments you abhor. How is your detrimental usage of terms like "frat boy" and "dude" different from, e.g. people who observe a few women who are not interested/good at coding and declare "Women can't code"? Or when someone declares "Racial Persecution Really Isn't The Problem In Baltimore, it's "Personal Behavior" (http://mediamatters.org/video/2015/04/28/bill-oreilly-racial...)?

I came across poignant reminder of this irony while catching up with news about university protests over the weekend: After being intimidated and physically assaulted by protesters while trying to take photos in a public space in Missouri U., the journalism student Tim Tai said "He was in a similar situation when covering last year's protests in Ferguson, ... — except 'it was the police doing it then.'" (http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-missouri-protest-camp-20...)

We should not appropriate the tactics of those we oppose.

It's funny you mention the Missouri U Tim Tai incident. That entire debacle is a good lesson for us progressives in the dangers of ultra- political correctness and knee-jerk sensitivity. And that's what I thought of when I read your comment about detrimental usage of terms like "frat boy" and "dude".

"Frat boy" and "dude" are off-limits now?

Not just fratboys tbh. Wall Street is only about the money. Like power it tends to attract the worst and corrupt the best.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com