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Comment by m52go | Hacker News Reader

For all the hate this device gets, it has its fans. Particularly (in my experience) middle-age "tech enthusiasts" (commonly, folks who don't work in the industry but consider themselves trendy because they know about the newest devices) who already have work devices and use laptops and tablets a lot already for mostly mundane personal tasks.

For them, a larger iPad with a keyboard is all they need for their personal work (email, Googling, etc), and the huge screen & 4 speakers are icing on the cake for watching Netflix or HBO Go with their spouse in bed.

It was hard for me to understand this appeal because it's often made out to be an office productivity device a la Surface Pro. I doubt it'll succeed that way. From what I've seen, people seem to see it as a quick, slick, light, no-frills laptop replacement for personal work & play for people in an older, more affluent demographic...and it fulfills that use case very well.

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I don't get the hate. It's an expansion of the tablet line to fit those whom a tablet would serve well but the Air isn't quite big enough. If a notebook serves you better, get a notebook. If a 13-inch tablet serves you better, get the iPad Pro. If that's too big, get an iPad. If that's still too big, get a Mini or an iPhone 6+ or 6. The Pro is clearly for a limited audience; if it's not for you, it's not for you.

In a vacuum, I'd agree with your thoughts. However, the competition makes similar devices at similar prices that, objectively, do a lot more.

That's where it becomes a debate.

It comes down to what software you want or need. That's probably going to dictate the platform, then it's just a matter of picking the form factor that fits.

I think what often makes the debate frustrating is that for many people, myself included, 'do a lot more at the same prices' is not the most important metric that prompted our choices. It seems to me that many of the debates are unproductive as a result, because there's disagreement on some of the basic assumptions.

> I don't get the hate.

I think price has a lot to do with the hate. $950 for 128GB is pretty step and 32 GB for a "Laptop" replacement is not practical.

I am a Apple hater and one of my biggest Apple Tax problems is the cost for memory. My daughter has a 16 GB iPhone 6 really 16 GB? She just doesn't want to pay for the extra memory.

In the age of Dropbox and Spotify, why would you need more than 16GB? I used a 16GB iPhone 6 for over a year and never went over 11GB.

Well I have 32 GB and I seriously have issues if I want to have a movie or two downloaded on my phone.

I can't even have but a few books installed and MAYBE on audio book with 16.

I get a down vote because you got down voted by someone else? I don't think you get how the system works.

I didn't downvote you, it was the same guy.

Photos and videos taken with the camera, music and audiobooks for offline listening (in the countryside, commuting), sat nav apps, 3D games, a few movies or TV shows to entertain the kids in a tight spot, ... (I am currently at 42GB).

I'm late to the party, but here's why I need (well, want) more than 16GB:

Apps - some are large enough and used frequently enough that I don't want to have to do the download/delete cycle on them.

Photos - I went to Italy a few weeks ago with a group. One of the guys had a 16GB phone. He was emailing the photos to his wife each night and deleting them after because he didn't have enough space. That's annoying, and what do you do when you don't have a data connection and run out of space?

Music - sort of agree, but again, limited data connections do happen. Even when they don't, streaming saps the battery compared to playing already downloaded songs.

Books - I play tabletop RPGs, less now than I used to. But when I played more, being able to pull from my collection of books quickly (some of these are just scans from old books, 100MB for a manual). Having to download them off Dropbox each time, or download/delete cycle through them to make sure I had enough space, would be annoying.

Updates - an ex-girlfriend had the 16GB one when iOS 8 (?) came out. I kept telling her that we could update it on her laptop via iTunes and get around the problem, instead she cleared out a bunch of photos (and later regretted it because she was a dope and didn't back them up first) and apps (fewer regrets, those were just downloaded again) so she could download and install the OS update. AS I recall, that one had an absurdly large free space requirement, but even requiring a more modest 500MB-1GB of free space could be difficult to meet sometimes if you only have 16GB and downloaded music, apps, photos, videos. Which items do you delete to make room?

EDIT: I'll note, this is more of an issue for me on tablets than my phone. I have fewer big apps on the phone that I couldn't delete, and I never watch video other than streaming some youtube content if someone sends me a link. My tablet, on the other hand, is my go to device when traveling and gaming (a fair number of good board games have apps for iOS and the iPad, much easier than carrying around several boxes of boards and pieces and rules to play with friends).

> Photos - I went to Italy a few weeks ago with a group. One of the guys had a 16GB phone. He was emailing the photos to his wife each night and deleting them after because he didn't have enough space. That's annoying, and what do you do when you don't have a data connection and run out of space?

Google Photos!!!! Seriously the greatest photo app in existence!

I guess you're paying for a good screen, working stylus, thought out product design, a smart touch UI/OS and being able to continue to use existing Apple purchases (media, Apps). None of these things are easy to "review"/compare and that's probably why it's hard for people to find an "objective" argument for its pros/cons.

I never understood the hype around the original iPad, it always bothered me that the OS was so restricted/black-box-y. Not really in-between a laptop and an iPhone but rather... a bigger iPhone. To understand, I first had to realize that the appeal has nothing to do with being able to install programs freely or have mouse-pointer precision. It's all about carrying a small-notebook sized screen around that's smart enough to surf the web, watch movies and view PDFs. It seems not worth 400€ when you already have a laptop, but from a usability POV, it kinda sorta is. These things aren't really there to replace office computers after all, they rather replace anything else you have lying around.

Counterpoint -- while I am middle-age, I can program a wide variety of languages and can function as CTO and architect in a very technical space. Unless I am coding (and even then 30% of the time), I prefer my ipad Pro to my desktop.

The screen is truly beautiful; you can sync up a real keyboard on bluetooth if you need cherry MX keys to feel productive... The stylus is amazing.

I'm on a trip right now, and I left the macbook air at home, (and also my moleskine and my books).

If i could get a linux VM on this somehow, I would have no hesitations dumping the rest of my computers.

That said, like the review mentioned, the app support is spotty, especially for 5k display support. I am sure that will continue to improve with time. My ipad pro is my favorite computer I've purchased since the original Macbook Air 11.

Of course, I was being stereotypical, but it's interesting to hear your experience!

Have you considered a web IDE? Like Cloud9, Nitrous.io, etc?

I own almost all the ssh clients for iOS, and occasionally use cloud9.

The browser isn't performant enough to really feel good coding in c9, and I prefer vi keybindings, so it's a no go for me.

I'm really pretty happy with ssh and vi, although there is no ssh client with mosh support extant. And getting something like solarized into your ios ssh terminal is pretty painful. I would expect at some point this year, an enterprising ssh on iOS developer will get all that sorted with high res fonts, though. The combo is pretty compelling.

My typical setup is tmux on ssh on the main pane of the ipad and the right hand window has slack or a browser or messaging, depending. It's great, very low distraction, really a nice setup.

I use nitrous.io. The web based IDE works great on a Chromebook but not so great on my iPad Pro. I expect improved support.

One option is to use the web based IDE for editing and have a separate SSH+terminal app open to a nitrous.io account. You can swipe between apps in a second for editing or command line stuff.

That said, it is more convenient working all in emacs with SSH.

It is important to use a SSH app that has a reasonable virtual keyboard.

Why not a Surface instead? It can even run Linux natively.

I thought the same thing! I even spent a good hour with a surface book on launch. I also own a chromebook pixel 2015.

On the surface, the stylus experience and typing experience wasn't there. And the weight / feel wasn't as appealing. Even if equal, it would have been a tough call because I penalize windows heavily for small annoyances, security updates, notifications, difficult-to-understand security hierarchy.

It may seem counterintuitive to prefer either total or nearly zero OS control, but iOS just gets out of my way. When I'm in linux, I can have things precisely how I like, which means much (not all) of the OS question can be reduced to "is there a quality ssh client?"

Finally, I'm typing this over an LTE network, something that the book didn't offer as far as I know.

I see. I was referring to the Surface Pro 4 or the Surface 3, which might be more comparable to the iPad Pro than the Surface Book.

I've tried several, and I think that with a decent Linux setup they can be very enjoyable. I agree Linux can get on your way, but I've found that a very minimal Arch setup, or a declarative Nix/Guix setup can be fantastic. I cannot say the same about heavyweight distros.

Yep, I've had developers who use them as a primary computer and love them. The ipad pro screen beats surface pro screen IMO.

> If i could get a linux VM on this somehow,

Hell, I'd even take sensible keyboard behavior so I could ssh and use emacs.

I don't know why apple has torpedoed the emacs+ipad combination so hard.

I'm a vi user, and the inability to remap something to esc is grindingly frustrating. On the road i use 'jj' and at the office I have a variety of nice keyboards. Seems like there's a niche app for keyboard remapping. I'm not sure if that would be possible unjailbroken or not.

I am also a middle-age who can program a wide variety of languages, and agree with all your points. I think an interesting alternative to running a Linux VM on iOS would be to access one hosted on an affordable cloud (like a Digital Ocean $5/month instance) via some VNC app. I haven't tried it yet, but I think it should work.

I haven't tried VNC, but I use a number of different ssh apps every day, they work well. Mosh support would be great, though.

I started with a free/cheap VNC app, but once I bought Screens I never looked back (and gladly bought the 3.0 update when it came out). My needs are basic, but I've been impressed with their updates and support for iOS features.

I should mention I haven't tried Screens to VNC into Linux, I use it with my Macs.

As someone else also commented, use a remote Linux server for casual development on the iPad Pro. Using Prompt for SSH+terminal, I find it convenient enough to code if I can do everything in emacs (e.g., small Haskell or Ruby projects). Fortunately, I have huge hands (I am 6'4" tall) so using the onscreen virtual keyboard while holding the iPad Pro works well for me.

I find doing development on remote servers to be peaceful in an odd way. For example, if I need to do a fresh Haskell stack build on a large project: if I do this build on my local laptop I get impatient but on a remote server, I fire off a build and swipe to another application on the iPad.

Yep. I think it's the lack of widgets and stuff. I'm partial to cmd-tab on the ipad myself. :)

don't forget musicians, the ipad pro is so much better for things like

- reading scores while you play (bigger) - writing music (with the pencil) - having more controls for your VST instruments (via OSC controllers like lemur)

and the higher processing power might make it more likely that more DAWs will be ported to it for on-the-go idea jotting.

It also has surprisingly good speakers - might be occasionally tolerable to do some of this stuff without headphones.

One-page portrait is still cramped for score reading. It's workable, but it's not comfortable because most players read ahead by a bar or two.

It's great for Lemur though - better than the original Lemur hardware.

I'd guess a natural development a few years from now will be a Courier-style ultrathin two-screen clamshell.

for lead sheets it should be fine, for score reading you can always set things up so you have 2-3 lines of the score only and use a bite switch to flip forward (depending on your instrument you can also manage with a footswitch of course), but yeah, I agree that it looks a little bit cramped.

For larger there is also the samsung galaxy view (18") but it's been panned quite a bit in the reviews for its size so not sure how many other tablets would be available in that format.

An alternative would be getting a 21:9 1440p monitor and putting it on your music stand with attached some sort of mini-pc (intel nuc with displayport, say) but that would not be nearly as portable as an ipad, it would have very few compromises though and paradoxically not cost that much more than a fully loaded ipad pro (although you'd lose the pencil, but if money is no object you can always get a cintiq).

I remember many years ago (in the mid-late 80s maybe?) somebody coming out with an "electronic music stand" (monochromatic TFT LCD screen that was probably maybe 640x400 and 15"?) and it seemed so sci-fi at the time, amazing how many options we have now, will be even more fun once AR becomes good enough and you can have your AR music stand with you anywhere you go at the push of a button...

Another possibility is a multi-device multi-page score reading app. I don't know if that's available now, nor if anyone's working on it, nor how hard it would be.

Ouch! That's me you're talking about. Its replacing pen and paper notebooks for me, lightens my load for short business travel and is easier on my aging eyes as I try to stay current with inexperienced youngsters opining on topics they won't understand for another 30 years or so.

> For them, a larger iPad with a keyboard is all they need for their personal work (email, Googling, etc), and the huge screen & 4 speakers are icing on the cake for watching Netflix or HBO Go with their spouse in bed.

I was wondering what the purpose of a device like this could possibly be, that makes a lot of sense. My dad has one of the free Verizon tablets that they gave out for a promotion a little while back, and uses it for exactly this. I guess it's a generational thing, because it never really made sense to me.

It's not entirely generational though. I use an iPad for a lot of stuff even with a laptop available on my desk. The reason is that I'm a power user, and on my laptop I'm too likely to start fiddling with stuff and get distracted (might be a mild form of ADD).

And just to be clear, I'm a serious power user. I use hammersmith, BetterTouchTool, vim keybindings wherever I can, and Alfred to the extent that almost any key is involved in some kind of shortcuts. I avoid emacs precisely because I'm afraid I'll get even worse.

The fact that on the iPad I have to focus on the article I'm reading, the the email I'm writing, or in general the app I'm working on, well, all that helps me to stay focused.

The first thing I thought when I saw this was that it'd be an excellent gift for my wife, who constantly has Netflix or Hulu on in the background on our ancient iPad (a 2 I think).

Streaming HD video in the background? ...not watching it? Oy vey. These kids today.

Anecdote: My parents use their iPads as you mention. The thing is, they have iPad 2's and are very happy. If they ask me about upgrading to a larger screen, I will tell them to buy a refurbished 13.3" Macbook Air for approx $1000 +- $100. That is a "no brainer" recommendation compared to the iPad pro.

Agreed. For a more affluent demographic that can afford it, however, the iPad Pro wins because it's an iPad and "not a laptop."

Same reason people spend more money to buy SUVs and crossovers...it's "not a minivan."

> Same reason people spend more money to buy SUVs and crossovers...it's "not a minivan."

You should say "three row" crossovers and SUVs. In the two row configuration they are cheaper than most Minivans (e.g. $2500+ cheaper in most cases for a similar trim). Plus the fuel savings (Minivans have universally bad MPG, until the hybrids appear, particularly in the sub-$35K price bracket).

I don't really think that's a no brainer. They're completely different products. I'd much rather watch a movie on netflix on an IPad Pro than deal with the very poor resolution of a Mac Book Air. Also an IPad is a touch interface, Mac Book Air is OS X. As the OP said, these can be great devices for people not in tech that just need to type a few notes or emails. There's very little to break in an IPad as everything is pretty much preconfigured.

Much better screen overall.

Another anecdote: Dad (in his 90s) uses an iPad2 every day, having rejected the HP laptop I got them a few years back. He will never switch to a traditional laptop, especially sans touch screen, but a larger iPad would be great for his and Mom's eyesight.

Having learned the iPad paradigm, this demographic is going to be much more open to a size upgrade than to a paradigm shift, in my opinion.

Another anecdote as well: I hate to use the Mom cliché, but after years of trying to get my dear mother to use a desktop-based UI for basic stuff like email, web-browsing, I just got her an iPad. (In this case, an iPad Mini 2). Because there's much less to customize, there's much less to mis-configure, and she's been happily using it for some time. I don't think she'll ever go back to a desktop/laptop. (She actually prefers the smaller mini size, and says it's easier to hold)

The screen is garbage and not retina, nowhere near as good as the iPad pro.

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