Google saw more downloads than iOS App Store, but Apple generated more revenue | Hacker News Reader

Google saw more downloads than iOS App Store, but Apple generated more revenue

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58 pointssignor_bosco81 comments

Isn't this expected though? I think it is obvious that people who can afford a more expensive class of phones also buy more apps. OTOH Android phones are literally selling for < $30, no contract. A huge portion of Android phones sold are these super-cheap phones. And the users will probably just be happy with the 1000s of free apps in the Play store, quite a few of which are very well-written too.

Flagship android phones are not cheap.

Are we to conclude that if we took only the high end phones, iPhones would be in the majority?

iPhones are even more expensive than flagship Android phones. iPhone users tend to use Macs which are even more expensive than their Windows counterparts.

No matter how you slice it, if your business idea evolves around targeting people willing to spend money on mobile apps you're gonna find a lot more of those on the iOS ecosystem.

Also don't underestimate the fact that on Android you'll have to support more users that cannot be converted to paying customers because they simply don't care enough about apps to spend money on it.

"iPhone users tend to use Macs"

Given the relative numbers of iPhones and Macs sold that seems unlikely.

> iPhones are even more expensive than flagship Android phones.

Even thought they are barely really worth it, thats simply wrong.

The iPhone 6s costs here in the EU 739€ in its smallest config, the 6s Plus 849€. (and many will opt for the 64GB option as 16GB isn't sufficient for most)

I don't know of any other Android phone that costs that much and has somewhat comparable sales figures. The Samsung S6 Edge and Edge+ are the only ones close, but how many do they actually sell of these?

Android flagship is mostly in the 500 to 650€ range, iOS is in the 750 to 1000€ range.

> Even thought they are barely really worth it

I did not make any statement about the cost/value relation of iPhones. But apparently they are worth it for consumers.

My last statement was rather a opinion yes. Mostly based on the fact that i barely notice a difference since my dual core nexus for me 3 generations ago. My current phone has a 2k screen what barely makes sense on that size, a 14MP camera which is grainy as fuck, 4 cores with about 2.something Ghz each, 2 of which are off nearly all the time because who needs 4 cores?. I use it for browsing and SMS ...

You are right that by price sign barely any phones are as expensive as the iPhone (if any). But some Sony Xperia, Nokia Lumina and Samsung S6 play in the same range.

What makes the price point invalid in my POV is that you buy it with a contract usually. AFAIK the majority does. All the above mentioned phones will be $100, all the others (including the 32GB versions of the iPhone 6) are $0.

Also clearly you cant compare the sale figures. Apple makes 1 phone every other year. While the others mass produce models and usually create new ones per series at least yearly. Fact is that the majority of the world population is using Android again, also the Majority in most western countries has changed back to Android (at least those i care about)

The point that I'm trying to make is not which OS or company is better, the thread is about Apple making more money with the app store and why that is so.

I argue that Apple customers are less price sensitive than Android users. (on average) I know there are many Android users here that are less price sensitive than the average Apple users, but not everyone is part of the tech industry.

About the contracts: I don't know about the US, but in Austria/Germany the iPhones are more expensive even on contracts. I wonder how that could be that the price of a Galaxy S6 and iPhone 6S could be identical in the US on contract.

Flagship phones are not cheap, but a lot of Android users are not using the expensive phones.

If they were, Samsung's business model would be broken.

On Amazon:

Samsung Galaxy S6 Edge+ 32GB INR 53,900.00

Samsung Note 5 64GB INR 53,900.00

Apple iPhone 6S+ 64GB INR 72,980.00

These are the highest-end Android and iOS phones available right now. There's a considerable gap in the prices. The gap is more than the gap between Android high-end and Android mid-range.

If you're going to go this route, why not just say it plainly: people who buy Apple products have more disposable income and more disposable leisure time than people who buy Android devices.

Most likely because it would sound even more wrong.

It is not surprising for the reason you cite, but it is still interesting to see it actually measured.

Android dominate iOS by a huge margin, and I think it is ahead even in the high end segment. You can understand that people going for high end will spend more money on apps, but still price of apps is basically the same between iOS and Android, and iOS is not lacking in diversity including free software. So it is quite surprising that even a few buys from the middle and entry level consumers cannot offset Apple advantage.

And I write advantage, but I'm not even sure what it is exactly. iOS users spend more because they like Apple stuff was a nice narrative when Apple was a edgy high end alternative to mainstream. But in the smartphone world, Apple is mainstream, and yet the same behaviour is observed even with a much wider consumer base.

Is that because Apple brand is so strong that buying Apple change the consumer behaviour. (I have noticed that paying for stuff when you have Apple hardware is socially more acceptable. Like I bought BetterZip and my colleague didn't blink, but I paid for the Winrar license on windows and that was considered like sacrilegious. Like buying software for linux was considered weird but not on windows) Or is it because the Apple environment is just a tiny bit better that it makes a difference at the time of splashing 2 GBP on a game ?

Another alternative is that it is just that the app market is catching up more slowly than the hardware market, and it is just a question of time before sanity prevail. At least for the time being, my monkey brain is happy to have the social validation to have bought the "right brand of smartphone" :-)

I wonder how the Google Play store compares to Amazon or Humble Bundle. From the Humble Mobile Bundles and Amazon give away's, I've bought probably about 5 apps from Google Play, yet I have over 60 from humble and 20 from amazon.

"Android dominate iOS by a huge margin, and I think it is ahead even in the high end segment."

Every piece of data I've seen on this - for phones >$400, which is generally reckoned "high end" - suggests that's not correct. Most of Samsung's phones are not Galaxy S(n)[Edge][Plus]; instead they're much cheaper products.

Premium Android sales have pretty much stalled since the introduction of the large-screen iPhones over a year ago; hence LG, Sony and HTC seeing falls in sales and profit.

"Another alternative is that it is just that the app market is catching up more slowly than the hardware market"

The gap in revenue between the two platforms is getting wider by year, even while the download gap seems to be growing. So that doesn't seem a sufficient explanation.

There are also far more high quality apps that are free for Android.

Anecdotal evidence and total sample of one person using actively both platforms, but I don't find many (or any, so far) apps for Android that I would consider buying. I have downloaded roughly the same number of apps on both phones, but I only ever bought iPhone and iPad apps (mostly from iOS-only developers, like OmniGroup). Is that just the part of platform identity, or overall software quality? Discovery issue, or reliance on well known software names before purchashing? I don't know, but I find I rely on Firefox on Android for mostly everything I do on that platform (excluding free communication apps), while iOS is far more varied.

More anecdotal info but I've just started using my first android device this month and I feel like the store is far more inspiring and enticing.

I suspect the revenue difference is going come down to class of user and disposable income.

There's a lot of apps and choice on Android where you can use a free or ad supported app, while on the App Store there's simply only a paid solution. The lack of a "trial" or 15 minutes refund window was also annoying on iOS. That's perhaps also why there's more revenue generated.

I just switched back to Android from iOS after 8 months and noticed this first hand.

Oh man I'd love a 15 min refund window. So many apps I've bought only to discover five minutes into using them that I was duped by glossy marketing, but because the price was $4.99 or whatever it's just not worth arguing over it. I'm dreading to know the aggregate though..

If you'd love a 15 minute refund window, I wonder how you feel about the current Google Play refund window (2 hours).

See: http://www.androidcentral.com/google-play-support-page-confi...

Jesus. That is a terrible play and pushes devs away from the ecosystem. 2 hours only serves to hurt developers.

And 15 minutes?

I hope you're not arguing against any refund window at all. One can legitimately debate whether an appropriate window is 15 minutes, 2 hours, or a day but you should absolutely be able to get a refund if the program is unsatisfactory. Personally, it seems as if I might want more than 15 minutes to play around with a complex app, maybe going through a tutorial, etc. before deciding it doesn't work for me. If a developer is dependent on users not having a real chance to try out their app before paying their money, they should probably try to either improve their designs or take up another line of work.

2 hours is a preposterous amount of time for a "no-questions asked" return policy. No wonder devs don't put any effort in on the Play Store!

If an application can't deliver more than 2 hours of value, maybe it's not worth very much. It's not a movie. FWIW, the Apple app store doesn't have a formal time limit but you have to provide a reason.

Wow, what an entitled position to have.

You still haven't stated the reason for this claim. What's about "preposterous" for a 2 hours refund window ? Customer can fully test the app in those 2 hours and see if it fits him or not.

The problem isn't just the in money with the "it's only a buck or two for the app". You're trying to find an app you'll invest not just money, but time and your data. On iOS with this model it means you can spend 20-30$ for 5 different candidate apps and then choose one - or even find out you don't like any of them.

Now repeat this process for different types of apps that aren't multi-platform.

Actually, Google offers a way bigger refund window. 2 hours is just the "no hassle" refund that the user can ask for by just tapping the 'refund' button in the app page. After this s/he can always (in theory) email the developer and ask for a refund since the dev can always issue a refund from the Payments Merchant Center [1]. It's essentially left up to the developer to create its own refund policy after the mandatory 2 hours. In my case, the request it's very unusual so I always issue one when asked (users have never taken more than a day to ask for one). Assuming the buyer knows this, what would be considered a reasonable time frame after which this kind of requests can be denied?

[1] https://support.google.com/googleplay/android-developer/answ...

There's another way to request the refund out of the refund window without messaging the developer [1]. Although I'm sure you can't do it indefinitely. The main gist is that Google covers the refunds after 48 hours :

"After 48 hours, Google bears the cost of the refund, which protects developers from retroactive negative earnings. In this case, the apps remain available in the user's library indefinitely. Lest you should think this is a loophole to get free paid apps forever, Google tells us it has mechanisms in place to prevent abuse. The company declined to elaborate on what those mechanisms were, but it likely has something to do with the amount and frequency of refund requests."

[1] http://www.androidpolice.com/2014/05/16/google-quietly-imple...

Interesting, I may have to ask Google this but does that mean that if I refund after 48hrs from the Merchant Center do they still bear the cost of the refund?

I don't much see the point of a longer window than 15-30 min, to be honest. There are very few times when I've had to evaluate a mobile app for more than 5-10 minutes to decide whether or not it was worth the price of admission. A 15-30 minute window is a good compromise to trials, since it weeds out the folks who were never going to pay for the app anyway and doesn't require any significant risk on the side of the developer. No need to spend resources on developing special trial versions, and little risk that people will try the app, get the value out of it, then immediately refund. (Games with limited time of play, short stories, that kind of thing.)

Refunds post the window (but probably within some other window, like 30-90 days or so) should probably still be possible, but I'd be ok with those kinds of refunds requiring a higher barrier to entry – even if it is just filling out some forms. Plenty of apps I've paid for have gone the way of crappy updates you can't downgrade from, bringing bugs and what not along the way. I'd love to get a refund to those since I effectively can't use them anymore. It'd be an incentive for developers to not alienate current customers. Although, maybe paid upgrades would be a better solution to be honest.

I see (and get) lots of apps which are free, with limitations so that you can decide whether to buy the in-app purchase - which is effectively "the app". And I see full-featured ad-supported apps with an IAP to end the ads too.

True, those aren't time-limited trials; they're in effect feature-limited trials and pleasure-limited (annoyance-added) trials.

I guess this is not well known, but in practice it's possible to get a refund on any iOS/Mac app purchased from the App Store simply by writing App Store support and asking for one.

There's even a more direct option using iTunes or on the web: http://www.imore.com/how-to-get-refund-itunes-app-store

It worked on a dodgy TV tracking app I got.

Right. And there's no time limit as far as I know.

Actually there is, three months from the date of purchase.

Apple "report a problem website" states it at login : "To report a problem with iTunes, iBooks Store, iOS, or Mac App Store purchases made in the last 90 days, sign in with your Apple ID. For help with older purchases, contact iTunes Store Support."

So I guess there's no limit with contacting support option as you said.

I made the switch to iPhones a year ago (although I'm still mainly an Android developer) and can agree somewhat with your statement.

I rarely bought anything from the Google Play Store but I'm pretty sure this is due to the fact that on Android there is almost ALWAYS a free alternative for whatever you need.

On iOS not so much, even the crappiest app will cost you something.

But on the other hand I would do the same. iOS users are willing to spend more money on mobile apps/services which is also the reason why they buy expensive high end phones in the first place instead of buying a 50$ Android phone.

> even the crappiest app will cost you something.

isn't that a sign that competition in a more open platform makes for a better market for the consumer? And that paying for software is a thing of the past, and that other revenue models needs to be thought up.

Games have already made the transition, mainly due to the way they raced to the bottom and high cost of production, but i suspect utility apps will follow suit very soon.

IMHO they did. They serve ads and make often more money than if they would sell the app for a reasonable price. You even see this on Windows applications, like qTorrent which imo really sucks, but thats exactly what you get from expecting free software.

> ... on Android there is almost ALWAYS a free alternative...

This is key. I don't mind paying for apps, but if I can find a free (beer/libre) one (such as on F-DROID), I'll go for that first.

Yeah, as an android user with a high end phone, I have no problem paying for apps, even (relatively) more costly ones. Offhand I can think of torque pro and tasker that I've purchased, and a bunch more that I can't think of. The reason I don't buy more is there is almost always a free or ad supported version of the apps, so I only buy ones that have functionality that I can't get for free, which is rare.

Many of the apps I've purchased for my Android phones over the years had a lite or ad-supported version for free and then a full version for purchase. I like being able to try something out first and when I have the option, I'm actually much more likely to pay for the full version. Ad-supported stuff is only good for testing out an app because they're annoying and obtrusive but I can understand having them in free/demo versions. If the only thing that sucks about a useful app is the ads, I'll gladly pay to get rid of them.

Then there's the demo stuff where you pay to unlock extended features. Sometimes I don't necessarily need those (like on the Hue Pro app or Nova Launcher) but when I use something daily and it's $1.99 to get the full version, I tend to buy "pro" more often than not. It's more a matter of maybe wanting the extra functionality or wanting to support the dev than about necessity in most cases but it definitely beats having to buy something only to find out it's crap.

If anything, the only reason I skip an app entirely is because I can't find enough trusted info to convince me it's something I want and there's no free version to test out first. Only for trusted devs and well-known and thoroughly reviewed apps do I tend to buy without a trial/demo first.

My favorite thing about free android apps is how so many demand access to contacts and location (and sometimes microphone and camera!) despite never really needing them to work. Since most people have no idea how to deal with this, they are paying a much heavier price for those free apps than they think. At least the newer android versions let you revoke these permissions, but given the state of android version deployment, it seems likely the vast majority of android users are giving quite a lot of personal information away to quite a few people.

It was not the sole reason I moved away from android but it definitely helped me make the decision.

There's another way to view that...

On Android, you expect high quality for free.

On iPhone, you expect that to achieve high quality, you have to pay for it.

I don't experience that iOS is "more varied." Maybe it is. Sounds pretty subjective.

This data is bland. Google's revenue from its ability to use the additional data from this ecosystem surpasses Apple's 30% cut.

You know who looses? Developers.

Well, it's not really meaning full to compare revenue with gross profit.

Unless I missed something the article mentions nothing about in app ads (or in app spending), which I'd bet a lot of devs rely on. I'd be curious to know how the split goes there. I mean, if I was developing an ad supported app, I'd stick it up on Play for the bigger market share. I'd also wager that even with the same amount of downloads on each platform you'd get more ad clicks on Android.

According to some analysts (yes I know, but if a guessing game), Goggle makes 75% of its mobile ad revenue on iOS.

http://iphone.appleinsider.com/articles/15/05/27/apples-ios-...

I would like to look at that "Goldman Sachs report" because everyone is quoting it but nobody has put a link to it. Now it seems like a fact but there is no single proof of it.

And not taking into account that Appleinsider is not the best and unbiased source of information.

The story was broke the New York Times, but Business Insider seems to have the best reference for it as they quote directly from the note and mention the lead author. Presumably the note isn't available online (for free anyway, such notes are often part of paid subscriptions but are occasionally provided to journalists). But bear in mind this entire thread is predicated on analysis, not canonical data.

http://www.businessinsider.co.id/apple-walked-away-from-iad-...

So, there is no single proof of the assertion.

Is like God, you have to believe

The level of evidence I need for god is a bit higher than the standard I need for the mobile ad market. I suppose it depends on which religion we're talking about. I've often heard it said that the whole ad business is Voodoo.

I wonder what the number of downloads represents, user-initiated acts or files transmitted?

Google lets developers publish updates easily and Apple does not, so the number of updates might be larger on android than on ios. Might be, I don't know.

I worked on a top 10 grossing (at one time) freemium ios/android game. Our iOS and android DAU were basically equivalent. However iOS generally made about double what android made daily.

I would like to know from which countries the iOS revenue comes from, given that in many countries very few people can afford one device off contract.

Basic economics. You increase the price, sales go down. You lower the price, sales go up. Somewhere, there is an optimum in the profit you make.

Look up Veblum goods.

You mean Veblen goods :)

I mostly use iOS (my phone) but i have an android tablet. From the few apps on my android tablet it seems they are lower quality, have more ads, and i have much much fewer apps on my android than ios mostly because of these reasons. It isn't a surprise that there are more Google downloads than app store downloads.

You choosed to use a free App which usually finances itself via ads. If you choose a paid app this usually is not the case. Apple is rather like paid apps only, and those which are free are usually really crappy (or earn with you otherwise)

In late 2010, I did a survey in my office with my co-workers. 9 of them had Android devices and only 2 of us had iPhones. I went door to door and asked everyone if they had ever purchased an app for money. Only Android user said yes, but it took him a while to remember what he had even purchased since he didn't use the app anymore. Both of us who had iPhones purchased multiple products including on Cydia (The jailbroken app store). We both also made purchases early on when the App Store prices were still in the $5 - $10 range for apps which are today mostly free. This seems to be a continuation of that trend; More total Android devices with less total revenue.

  Apple is getting ahead mostly because of China app store revenue. China Android app stores revenue alone is more than half Apple Worldwide store revenue.
   Google entering into China market will improve its revenue but China Android App store are extremely competitive market and they will have a hard time entering and taking away market share from current app stores.

It's always been like this, no?

"Revenue" meaning total money moving through the store, or revenue to Google/Apple only? If the latter then the numbers will depend on the cuts each company takes.

Isn't that the same for both stores though? (30% of price)

No, Google doesn't take a cut from Netflix, Amazon, etc

And not taking into account that that revenue is only from direct payment, ad revenue is not included.

But seen for the point of view of the third party developers Android is still a less profitable platform.

Apple doesn't take a cut either for selling non digital goods and Amazon doesn't let you buy digital goods via the app.

apple customers spend more money. android customers are cheapskates... this is old news, but the scale of it and having some measurements from others to back it up is nice.

This is why we develop for iOS first => https://impossible.ventures/ios-first/

Yep, if you release for iOS first and then bring halfassed obsolete version on Android (as most people do) one year later, you're of course going to see less revenue there.

Or, we beta test the iOS version & get it feature complete first and then bring it over to Android so we don't have to maintain old code. But that's just us wanting to make things simple, I guess.

There are also developers, like ustwo who releases the same game (Monument Valley) on both platforms within a short period of time. In this case iOS in April and Android in May. Still the numbers for Android are nowhere near those of iOS, despite there being more Android phone.

If the development cost for both platforms are roughly equal, it might not make sense to develop an Android version in the future. Instead the money could be put to better use making a new iOS title.

The reason why Android apps are selling so poorly could of cause as you say be due to lack of quality on the apps in general. If you buy two, three or four apps when you get your new Android phone and their all terrible, then you might decide not to waste money on any app in the future. If that's the case Google should start curating their app store. Otherwise it will be a continuing vicious circle where users aren't buying and developers push out increasingly lower quality, because the revenue can cover the cost of development.

> If the development cost for both platforms are roughly equal, it might not make sense to develop an Android version in the future. Instead the money could be put to better use making a new iOS title.

Yup - this is our reasoning too.

> Yup - this is our reasoning too.

And that's understandable, but acting lously towards your customers will make you fail on the market. On iOS and Android. It's shockingly common that Apple user CEOs suddenly throw all attention to design, marketing and customers out the window on their Android wonder and then whine how noone likes to buy their applications.

Why do you assume that we do this? You're pretty accusatory about this whole thing.

Monument Valley was released significantly later for Android and was practically not marketed on Android at all (which you can see on their graphs where iOS sale spikes were always a result of marketing pushes and they didn't even bother to market the Android version). If you don't market your software it's not going to sell. Especially if you release Android version so late that noone remembers what your game was all about.

> If that's the case Google should start curating their app store.

Lack of curation is one of the reasons people buy Android - if you want a curated store you can already buy Apple. Google trying to cater to only iOS demographic is one of the dumbest ideas that they can do. Why do I see so many iOS users unable to fanthom that people expect different things from their phone that iOS offers? -_-

Perhaps people paid for it, executed it and seeing that it is just a list of meals they asked for a refund

We get a very tiny percentage of people who initiate a refund.

Curious why this is getting downvotes....

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