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Comment by numlocked | Hacker News Reader

And for a completely different perspective, we have Kurt Vonnegut:

[Vonnegut tells his wife he’s going out to buy an envelope] “Oh, she says well, you’re not a poor man. You know, why don’t you go online and buy a hundred envelopes and put them in the closet? And so I pretend not to hear her. And go out to get an envelope because I’m going to have a hell of a good time in the process of buying one envelope. I meet a lot of people. And, see some great looking babes. And a fire engine goes by. And I give them the thumbs up. And, and ask a woman what kind of dog that is. And, and I don’t know. The moral of the story is, is we’re here on Earth to fart around. And, of course, the computers will do us out of that. And, what the computer people don’t realize, or they don’t care, is we’re dancing animals. You know, we love to move around. And, we’re not supposed to dance at all anymore.”

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Another very different perspective, from Seneca's "On the Shortness of Life":

"So it is—the life we receive is not short, but we make it so, nor do we have any lack of it, but are wasteful of it. Just as great and princely wealth is scattered in a moment when it comes into the hands of a bad owner, while wealth however limited, if it is entrusted to a good guardian, increases by use, so our life is amply long for him who orders it properly."

...

"But those who forget the past, neglect the present, and fear for the future have a life that is very brief and troubled; when they have reached the end of it, the poor wretches perceive too late that for such a long while they have been busied in doing nothing. "

http://www.forumromanum.org/literature/seneca_younger/brev_e...

These need not be conflicting viewpoints, it depends on how much value you ascribe to certain activities, and how much joy (intellectual or otherwise) you get out of it.

Sometimes meandering in the manner of Vonnegut means your mind has chance to work on other things in the background, and as a result of this it gives you inspiration, etc.

Slightly on topic: Something I realised lately is that a lot of the activities I do are nothing but stress relief. So to have time to do things I want to do (studying, etc) I attempt to limit stress as much as possible, and not add more stress to the pile by accosting myself for the occasional daydream, etc.

I really don't think this contradicts PG's point or challenges it in a way to be deserving of the phrasing "entirely different perspective."

For one, from the essay:

> But different things matter to different people, and most have to learn what matters to them

And for two, Kurt is at odds with himself in that quote though his overall sentiment is correct. He says to "fart around" and then creates a straw-man with computers. What he really means to say (I think) is that life is about experiencing it and appreciating those experiences.

This certainly doesn't run contrary to what PG is saying. In fact, he's saying the same exact thing -- life is short, so find what you love and do it & love it.

I was going to have a similar reply. The first part anyway. Clearly farting around is something that matters to Kurt.

But that makes me think on what actually matters. Doesn't everything we do in our free time matter? If it didn't, why would we do it?

And then we do things that don't matter all the time at work, PG used meetings an example. Usually, they don't matter, but we do them... it seems there's a bit of give and take. I suppose we could ignore some of the meetings but too many missed meetings might piss the boss off. Then we lose the income source and makes it really hard to do what matters.

This piece hit me pretty hard. My dad's in the hospital again, one of the many times over the years. I never know when might be the last. I live hundreds of miles away... it sucks.

Life here is first and foremost arbitrary. As a result of this, the world is like a blank canvas we look out to and fill in with meaning.

The life of a human can be wrought with meaningless acts that have been given a lofty value in the human's head. One human says "This is meaningless!" while the other calls it holy. Many take this as a lesson to say that happiness is found by arbitrarily assigning value, but this -- and all idols -- will fail.

The great lesson of this world is to find yourself. This is necessary because the world is a dream; a very complicated but simple illusion. How does one escape illusions? Surely not by fighting with them, but by letting them go. This is why monks train so long to let go of attachment to the world and learn how to disconnect from it. The enlightenment that follows is but recognition of the real world -- what some would call "heaven" or "nirvana".

Different strokes for different folks, but the end-goal will always be the same for this world. The "last judgment" will be when the world has finally been judged truly and we relinquish from it and go back home. It might be many, many years away, but there are some of us whose only purpose is to accelerate the return.

Therefore, knowing that I have a purpose, responsibility, and finite time on this world, the equation for what has meaning to me is "Is my function aligned with my purpose?"

I think it conflicts because of pg's focus on intentionality the way you spend your time - which, if not the strict opposite of 'farting around', is darn close. If pg preaches impatience for what matters, Vonnegut preaches farting around because, who knows what you want?

Another different perspective, from Brian Chesky:

Repetition doesn’t create memories. New experiences do. Our perception of time is really driven by our perception of the unfamiliar, vivid and new. Of course, it turns out time slows down the most during life threatening experiences. [1] A safer way to slow down time is to travel. Travel is a new experience that can transport you out of your everyday routine to create memories with the ones you love.

https://medium.com/@bchesky/how-to-time-travel-b604096d5ed0#...

That's interesting. Repetition doesn't create memories but it does create skills. Maybe that's why when we get older we tend to have fewer new experiences but more skills. Because of repetition - the more we live the more we repeat something.

I often feel much like Vonnegut, and yet, I don't think it contradicts the ideas in the essay. Vonnegut really enjoyed "farting around" and didn't think it was bullshit.

The difference is it sounds like Vonnegut was quite content to go for a stroll and chat up the sales clerk.

This is in stark contrast with 'I wish I spent more time with person X'.

When you live a simpler life, you have simpler pleasures.

When you live a high-brow life, all of a sudden you grasp at experiences because you're not sure when the next one is going to come around the corner.

Hence missing people, or feeling like you will never get to do X again.

When you enjoy the smell of 100 flowers, the absence of a couple doesn't inspire your mind into a frenzy of 'optimizing away the bs' because you know, when you're a multi-millionaire who doesn't have to work another day in his life, is it really spending time on bs that's the problem?

Maybe it's the bs ideas in the mind and in this essay :)

You can do both.

I love seeing the blue sky and clouds and I love just walking outside even if a bike ride or bus ride would be faster. I also want to not be late for work, and have enough time to finish my errands. I want to have comfort and pay off my student loans and see Europe before I turn 35 (had to move the goal posts, unfortunately). It comes down to balancing things.

Also, chatting with a sales clerk, really, experiencing life is not a "simple pleasure" for some people, me included. If I had all the "important things" but couldn't see a white cloud for the rest of my life, I would consider that a failed life. In the end, we all have what we call "important" and what we call "bullshit", and it does vary from person to person.

You can fly to Europe round trip ~$700 or cheaper if you look around and are not particular about which city you start in. Why not see it now?

I'm not noobermin, but for me it's not really the cost of the trip, it's the loss of the income I would have generated during the trip. I could take vacation, but I don't wouldn't want to rush through the trip. Ideally it would stretch across a few months.

The best computer software is the kind that reminds people to dance and shows them some steps.

Vonnegut, like so many people, imagines computers can only suck the life out of things. I suppose we deserve that reputation, since so many of us write software that does.

Softwar swings both ways. Some productivity software saves hours, months or years by maximizing efficiency. On the otherhand games and social media sure do suck up a lot of time.

While at the same time, software that maximizes efficiency (todo apps, etc.) can cause anxiety and increase the risk of mindlessly checking off todo items without considering their value (I've experienced this), and games and social media can provide lasting, valuable experiences and friendships.

The computer is a neutral tool that can make good things better and bad things worse. Because still a relatively new invention, and undergoing constant, rapid change in how it affects culture and individual behavior (pocket computers! VR! etc!), we haven't quite figured out how to distinguish the two.

In some cases this means that we unexpectedly find a wonderful application that improves countless lives, and in some cases it means that we discover ways in which the use of a computer can affect us or society negatively.

Personally, I am generally in favor of change, in the broadest sense, even if sometimes it's bad, while paradoxically I myself don't deal well with changes. The thing I love about computers is that they are one of the biggest instruments of change, and yet in my interactions with computers they are wonderfully boring and predictable, in the end.

I have a theory that this is one aspect of computers that draws so many people like me to them. I have access to a vast world of experience, knowledge and people while using a tool that I control, usually from the comforts of my home. And using that same tool, in the same comfortable setting, I can create things that somehow affect (and ideally benefit) many people, through writing, coding, 'drawing', and most importantly the internet.

That said, of course going out into the world is still an activity that is important for happiness, at least for most people. But the fact that I live in a time where I can create, learn, consume, bond, and so on, with this one tool and an internet connection is something I'm very thankful for.

I'm in the middle of writing some software that is in the "reminds people to dance" category, it's not about making anyone rich (including myself) but about making peoples lives measurably better and easier, hopefully lots of peoples lives.

It was something I only realised I could do through shitty things that happened over the last few years but working on it has given me a peace I've been missing a long time - I've found it's way too easy to get caught up in the day to day of keeping up with the field we are in, everything moves so quickly I started to feel like if I got off the bus I'd never be able to catch back up..but the thing is another bus usually turns up (if it's a UK bus it'll be late though..).

I don't think Vonnegut meant "dancing" in a particularly figurative way. I think he means it in the sense of physically moving your body. Computers are great in my book, but I agree with Vonnegut that usage of them tends to result in less physical activity.

I didn't mean it figuratively either!

What struck me when I read that quote (as a Vonnegut loving computer nerd) was that computers at their best free up time to "dance"! That's the promise of a future where computers do most of our work for us: that we'll have tons of time to do whatever we enjoy doing. But instead, we're mostly scared of it, because we aren't sure what we'll do to make money if that happens, because we need money to buy ourselves the time to "dance". It's a real conundrum.

It's so much simpler than all the comments say. And as much as I said, during my childhood, that I'd never deign to repeat the same tired cliches my parents spouted off, I now find myself, as I have many times in my adult life, going back on that youthful assertion.

"Life's a journey, not a destination."

But do you really need an excuse to dance around? If he bought the envelopes online he could choose when and how much to dance around.

Note: I always appreciate an explanation for a downvote. I love to defend the notion that automating tasks can always lead to more productivity/happiness if we assign the freed resources appropriately.

"You are the music while the music lasts." --T. S. Eliot

I am looking forward to twenty years from now when I will have time to read all the Kurt Vonnegut, T. S. Eliot, and Charles Bukowski I missed when I was younger. Fortunately, for now, I need to get some work done.

Fortunately? Why on earth do you say that?

Read them now. They may even guide your future.

They guide my present.

"A man has not everything to do, but something; and because he cannot do everything, it is not necessary that he should do something wrong." -- from Civil Disobedience by Henry Thoreau

That something I have to do is learning to write shell scripts at the moment.

Listen to them while you write those scripts? Better than nothing?

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