Comment by adamb | Hacker News Reader

Comment by adamb | Hacker News Reader

Perhaps I'm the only one that sees this, but this essay appears to be a significant departure from the YC rhetoric I've observed in the past few years. Every time I've heard retention discussed (at YC) in the context of growth, it's cast as something you address when your growth has stalled. Not, as this essay would lead you to believe, a prerequisite of growth itself.

This essay, while it discusses a really important idea, comes across as saying: "Foolish, fashion-focused founders! Clearly retention comes first! We would never imply that you should focus on growth before your product had adequate retention!"

But that's exactly what I've seen YC partners do. Recommend that companies focus on growth, because that's what YC's definition of a startup is: a company that grows very quickly. Having seen both sides of the curtain, the essay leaves me with a greasy, queasy feeling.

Am I missing something here?

Sam, are you changing your standing advice from "focus on growth" to something else? If that's what this post signals, please take ownership of the change and spell it out.

It's poor form to imply that misguided founders (and their devotion to a fad) are driving the growth zealot craze when you've had a hand on the wheel for years.

Our motto is "Make something people want!" If that's not a statement about retention, I'm not sure what would be.

And a startup needs to grow quickly. It's not an either/or--at most, it's a sequencing issue.

Most founders fail because they don't make a product product some users love, or they never make a product at all. Others fail because they don't figure out how to grow fast.

But the best way to grow fast is to have a product that's so good people tell their friends about it.

All I'm saying is that I think things have shifted--perhaps because we've given bad advice, but also probably for lots of other reasons--and founders should course correct.

It's definitely a sequencing issue.

Glad you mention the "make something people want" motto :). I've recently realized that it's actually wrong. Well, backwards.

A more instructive formulation is: "find something people want and make it." Better to acknowledge the value of the search (and confidence in the finding) before encouraging the making.

I have seen many founders struggle to understand when the time to grow is. Pressure to raise deepens the struggle. On the topic of growth vs retention, of the hundreds of founders I have met or read about, I have been most inspired by the actions of Ooshma Garg (of Gobble). The quality of her service is second to none. She's the only founder I've ever met that has completely shut down her product because it wasn't good enough, only to reboot it to better quality, retention, sales, and growth than ever before.

In my experience (flawed and narrow as it is), the best way to course correct is to issue a recall. Treat bad advice like bad goods. Post the criteria where those affected will recognize themselves and make needed reparations.

As a community, we need to better celebrate founders that are doing it right. Not mock those of us still figuring it out.

If YC wants to get the word out about prioritizing product market fit above growth, it should elevate Ooshma's perspective, along with other founders that have made similar gut-wrenching decisions to invest heavily in retention while sacrificing weekly growth targets.

Overall I'm glad you wrote and posted the essay. And I appreciate any humility you may have felt while drafting it.

In general I don't agree. Maybe in a B2B setting you can do this. Do you have an example where this has worked? I can only think of many examples where it wouldn't have worked. Do I want a website where I can make friends with my real friends? No, what for, we'll just hang out in real life? Do I want a service where I can post 140 character messages to the world? Only 140 characters? What's the point of that? Do I want to be able to stay in other people's houses while they are away? No way, that's crazy, nobody would go for that over a hotel... (I happily use all these services now, of course).

There's always going to be a perspective that makes a business sound crazy before it's mainstream. That said, I used many of those products when they were very, very young and I did want what they were building. In many cases, those businesses came after others that lit the way but somehow came up short.

My point isn't that people should be asking for what you're building. My point is that you should think about how you'd know if people want it before you worry about making it.

That said, I regret adding that comment here, as it detracts from my larger point about encouraging YC to use more constructive ways to help their founders course correct.

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