Ask HN: How do you identify a “dead-end” job during an interview?

Very carefully...;)

Personally, I find interviewing a candidate more stressful than being interviewed. Stress doesn't do anything good for me and when I'm under stress, I don't always show off who I truly am. Rather, I tend to show off a much more uptight version of myself.

That said, here are some of the strategies that I use to evaluate potential employers.

- When they describe the job, is it full of wishy-washy corporate speak or can they give me an actual sense of what the average Wednesday morning will look like?

- When I email them after the interview, do they reply? How long does it take? How is their written grammar?

- Is it a new position? If yes, how did the position come about? If no, what happened to the last person?

- What happens when I ask questions like, "let's say that I need a $25/month software product to do my job. What will the process of getting that approved look like?" Are they evasive? Does the answer involve getting 74 signatures and an animal sacrifice? What happens if I change the value to $150 a month?

I hope that this helps!

Figure out what the job entails, and the tech required to do that. Then recall the job description - is every need listed as a requirement? If so, this is "dead end" by any reasonable definition, as they expect you to learn absolutely nothing on the job, but just regurgitate what you did for somebody else.

That is not entirely sure fire, as of course maybe your next task will give you the opportunity to learn new things, but to me it is always a red flag that cannot be ignored. If you expect me to know every last thing you need, I don't want to work for you because I will be stagnating in my career. I'm not going to gamble that I'll be allowed to move into a different group (I'm way past the beginning of my career, where some dues paying is usually in order).

If you are on the other end of hiring - consider letting us know what our chances of growth are in the job. So many job reqs just list requirements. It's hard to get excited about repeating the past.

Not a definitive list but indicative:

1. they are using older versions of software with no plan to upgrade (not the same as using older software but planning to upgrade)

2. they are using the waterfall model

3. the companies growth plans are limited ( thus the need to develop new features are limited. )

4. maintenance takes a lot of time and as the new hire - you get that job

5. automated tests are a foreign concept.

The potential that lies within a job is correlated to how much value you can contribute to the company.

When I look for a job, I screen it like an investor. I look at the team, the market size, the product. Team is especially important.

1. What are the bosses' background? Someone who worked at Facebook will have an entirely different approach than a management consultant. Sniff out culture and make sure it suits you. People's work and personal habits are very different - this is where you tell the two.

2. Look at the org chart. Organization charts are like software architecture. There is no "best" org chart; just what it's optimized for. If it insists on being a flat heirarchy, assume that it's an anarchy. You just want to make sure that they respect your role.

For example, one company has sales, marketing (separate from sales), finance, operations. Operations is then split into logistics, IT. Product development is squished under IT. This is likely a bad company for engineers. Likewise, I've seen companies where at least 50% of the budget is engineering.

3. What is the value of your role? If you make $100k, how are you contributing $200k to your company annually? If you find that you can only contribute $30k or that the position is worthless in a year, that's a red flag.

4. Growth rate. If a company's profit is doubling every year, there will be much less bureaucracy and politics.

5. Sniff out bullshit. I ready the most uncomfortable questions I can find. Why aren't they hitting a good growth rate? Why are they hiring so many people on $1M of funding? If they give you an honest "Uhh.. well.. I don't know," that's fine. It's difficult to lie. You want to detect the ones who lie as a reflex.

I think the answer lies in where the project is in its customer-adoption lifecycle.

- Is it a new idea with tons of growth potential, but unproven?

- Do you have early adopters, but still trying to find the bigger markets?

- Is it something that is currently growing very fast?

- Is it something that once grew fast, but now is more stable? Still makes a significant amount of money through new accounts?

- Is it something that makes most of it's money through maintenance and not new accounts?

- Is it something that has a large, but shrinking code-base?

All projects go through life-cycles like this. At the beginning it makes sense to invest in more growth -- at the end it makes sense to lower costs (and outsource).

Each part of the lifecycle needs a different skillset and has different kinds of goals.

If there's one part of the cycle you prefer, the trick is to move projects once the one you are on moves out of that part. Also, don't join teams that are past the part you want to do.

I don't think you really can. In my experience, it's in the employer's best interest to hire good people, and it's not in their best interest to be candid with you. Furthermore, even if I as an interviewer worked for a shitty company, it's still in my best interest to hire good people so that the company becomes less shitty over time. Therefore, there are very few questions you can ask that will give you a good insight as to whether a position is a dead-end job (whatever that means to you) or not. I'm not going to lie to you, but I'm also going to spin it in the most positive light I can to entice you to join my team.

At my last interview, I had a lot of success pretending that I was the one interviewing 5 people rather than being interviewed by those people. I asked a lot of questions, tried to get a sense of their day to day. It turned the interview into a bit more of a dialogue and less of an interrogation, and I think I got to see a bit more about how those people worked and what they thought during their time with me. I asked them a lot of the same questions I ask candidates when I'm interviewing them.

It worked pretty well. Got an offer. Wound up declining, because I sensed it wasn't a role I wanted, but I don't think any particular question gave me that impression.

Anyway, I don't think you can really find out in an interview. I think you'd have more luck talking to people outside of the interview or reading Glassdoor reviews, and so on.

>> "Read ad. ad. Send in resume. Go to job interview. Receive offer.” is the exception, not the typical case, for getting employment: Most jobs are never available publicly, just like most worthwhile candidates are not available publicly. Information about the position travels at approximately the speed of beer, sometimes lubricated by email. [1]

In my experience taking a job the formal way is like getting married after 5 dates. Pure gambling. And this is true for both parties. That is why you as an employer hire former co-workers you get on well with, your friends or friends' friends for the good positions and strangers for the shitty ones.

I hope this answers your question.

[1] http://www.kalzumeus.com/2011/10/28/dont-call-yourself-a-pro...

Aren't all jobs meant to be dead end, and our role is to somehow escape the fate? Escaping is complex process, mostly political. First they have to like you, then the company has to be successful / grow fast enough in your division.

Roles with built in career progression are called "fast track leadership".

1. The company is not growing and has no plans to grow. This is huge and probably swamps all the others.

2. The job is to maintain something old, and you get a sense there are no new plans for this product.

3. Is the software "enterprisey" in the pejorative sense: bloated, slow, over-engineered, etc. This might be a sign of a stable dead end job, and some people might want that. Leave these jobs to them.

4. Does the company either (a) promote from within, or (b) look good on a resume. If the answer is no to both, it's not going to advance you. Note that a startup with growth potential may satisfy one or both of these-- if you join early you are likely to hit a high position if it succeeds, and a successful startup looks good on a resume.

You can ask some questions.

"Where do you see me in two years?"

"What are the opportunities for career progression?"

"How do you support professional development?"

That's not going to work if they're deliberately deceiving you, but it should catch most companies if they see this as a dead end job.

I think you can began evaluating whether it's a 'dead-end' job long before the interview, potentially saving both you and the interviewer time.

1. Search LinkedIn for current/former employees of the company who held the title you are evaluating.

How long did they stay with the company? What were they up to previously; what are they doing now? Were they able to grow their responsibilities/title at the company? From what you can tell, do they sound like someone you would learn from or want to work with?

2. Glassdoor. Sort reviews by date, then filter by those specific to your department.

3. Speak with a few recruiters. Ask them about the company you're considering.

You can't. You won't know until you're in the role.

Source: ~15 years in the tech sector

If you notice that position is open for a long time and never gets filled, its most likely a job nobody wants to do.

In addition to the great responses already...

Do your research ahead of time on the company and people. Check out their social media, etc. Ask if this is a new position or are you replacing someone. If you're replacing someone, ask how long they were in the job. Ask about turnover.