What I learned not drinking for two years | Hacker News Reader

What I learned not drinking for two years

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71 pointskintamanimatt52 comments

I had an interesting experience with alcohol growing up. My parents were pretty strict, so I didn't go to drinking parties in high school. I didn't get drunk for the first time until near the end of my senior year in high school. It was great fun, and it helped me feel accepted. I drank a bit more, especially as graduation got closer.

One night I blacked out, and scared myself at how much I drank. I asked my best friend that week to "Stop me if I ever start to drink like that again." He looked me in the eye and told me he couldn't do that, because his dad was an alcoholic and he'd grown up hearing comments like that all his life. I had no idea.

I decided to hold off on drinking for a while, knowing that I have a tendency to dive into new things. I ended up not drinking at all through college. I went to plenty of parties, and it wasn't awkward at all because everyone knew me as someone who just didn't drink. It was a relief to try a beer some time after graduation and realize I could enjoy a drink or two with friends and not get drunk.

I've seen a lot of lives seriously impacted by alcohol, and I'm grateful every day that I found a way to manage my consumption at a young age. I admire people who can pull back from heavy social drinking like the author describes.

I think the title should be "what I learned no longer participating in nightlife."

I can't think of anyone who participates in nightlife successfully who doesn't at least get a little buzzed when out. If you want to skip nightlife altogether, which is what OP seems to be advocating (going to sleep early, saving money), then of course, it's an easy choice not to drink.

If OP wanted to write about how to fully participate in nightlife (2am outings, etc.) without drinking at all, that would be more radical, and a pretty interesting read at that.

> If OP wanted to write about how to fully participate in nightlife (2am outings, etc.) without drinking at all

In my experience, nightlife is even more fun with certain powdery and pill-y substances than it is with alcohol. Annoyingly they also negate the alcohol (but not the alcohol hangover), so you might as well not drink when you're using those. Waste of money and the hangover is going to be bad enough anyway.

I wouldn't suggest that kind of night out more often than every few months though. Whereas you can safely have an alcohol night out several times a month.

That said, as my workouts became more strenuous, my drinking has declined and almost completely stopped. I still drink alcohol on some occasions, but it affects my performance too much to be done regularly. And I don't have time to deal with the hangovers of other drugs, throwing an entire day away for a few hours of fun is not worth it [anymore].

And never forget: "People say you don't need to drink to have fun ... well you don't need running shoes to run, but it fucken helps".

> I can't think of anyone who participates in nightlife successfully

You should expand your thinking. No idea what you mean with 'successfully' but it's perfectly possible to have a great time without any drugs (though I have to admit one thing: the main downside for me is listening to people who did drink and because of that think they have great storeis to tell - drunk myself I would just nod in agreement and not care, when sober it's just super irritating and I'm embarrassed in their place). And since I've taken my fair share of all common legal and illegal drugs out there I think I know what I'm talking about.

> If OP wanted to write about how to fully participate in nightlife

You mean like a tutorial? Nothing radical about that, basically you just behave the same as you would when you're not drunk.

> nightlife (2am outings, etc.)

2am? That's when we just get started :]

Allow me to introduce myself. I am 47, and I haven't had alcohol since 2012.

Having fun is a state of mind and if you don't sit there being miserable it is easy.

What you have to do is to initiate talking to strangers, that just takes a bit of practice if it's not your normal behaviour.

> I can't think of anyone who participates in nightlife successfully who doesn't at least get a little buzzed when out.

This is a very strange and unqualified statement. I know a couple dozen very successful nightlife personalities/DJs/promoters who are sober... Not exactly sure what you mean by successful -- as in make it through the night? Cope with hanging out with zonked morons? Hook up with someone?

I'm not sober, personally, but I really admire people who manage to make the changes they need to make, particularly if they're involved in nightlife by necessity. It seems unusual if you go out a lot and don't know anyone by that description.

How is it unqualified if they are talking about people they know? And likely excluding people on the job at nightclubs.

I guess you can draw sweeping conclusions from your own narrow social base, but it doesn't seem like a reliable point of view from which to make generalities. By implication the comment seems to say that it's not possible to have a good time out sober, which could discourage someone from making a change they might need but feel apprehensive about making. I'm providing an optimistic counterpoint.

Club soda with a splash of cranberry. Drink that. Switch it up, try grapefruit. Don't be surprised when you make other people feel safe to drink the same.

As a devil's advocate:

Perhaps 'nightlife' is just boring without drinking, which makes me wonder if it's worth at all if it's no fun without drinking. Perhaps it's just a way to moderate drinking, then?

Anesthesia is generally used to help with pain, not improve the quality of an experience.

Nightlife is when you are awake but the sun is down and all of the people around you don't mind. There is sometimes lots of alcohol, yes, but also music and conversation and hopefully a convivial atmosphere. I recommend it. No anesthesia necessary for most people.

This definition of 'nightlife' is much better than the parents as implicitly as a venue that requires alcoholol to be fun.

I'd say that sober nightlife is boring, if everyone else is drinking heavily. If the group is generally not drunk, it's fine.

I think discussions about sobriety tend to ignore the vast middle-ground between "stone-cold-sober" and "shit-faced".

It is totally possible to enjoy one or two alcoholic drinks on a weekly night out without ruining finances, making a fool of one's self, and blowing-out the next day from a hangover. You don't have to choose one extreme or another.

> I can't think of anyone who participates in nightlife successfully who doesn't at least get a little buzzed when out.

Well, Kendrick Lamar comes to mind

> “I can’t trust someone who doesn’t drink.”

The author says he doesn't understand this sentiment, but actually he almost managed to explain it in the preceding section:

> I’m in control of my actions basically all of the time.

Drinking helps to build trust precisely because everybody is less "in control", i.e. less able to put up and maintain a fake front.

Ehhh... That doesn't sound right. It's more that the perception is someone is stuck up and prudish if they don't drink.

That's a strange fear to have because fake fronts* are fairly easy to detect in sober people. People might say shit they wouldn't while sober (true or otherwise), but alcohol isn't some magical truth serum and plenty of secrets have been kept while hammered. Very few people are out to get you, and if you're using alcohol to detect such a bias you're using the wrong tool.

I'm not sure why a drunk person's actions should be representative of their "real" selves anyway. Does a drunk person's meandering path indicate they're actually faking the ability to walk straight while sober? No. And what about the person who becomes more lively and silly when drunk? Are they faking being calmer while sober? Doubtful. People are different when they're drunk and they're just a stupider version of themselves, not necessarily a truer one.

I know people who choose not to drink because they consistently made bad choices when drunk that didn't fit with their "real" nature. I see that as a sign of a responsible person, not a less trustworthy friend. Some I know have been traumatized by an alcoholic parent. I don't trust them any less because of this. I know others who just don't like the taste of alcohol. Everyone has personal tastes; I don't like spicy food. There are others that will drink but not drink to excess because they don't enjoy wasting a day to a hangover. I'm pretty sure they're not trying to pull the wool over my eyes.

Most importantly, there are also those who are actual alcoholics, for whom alcohol interferes with their physical and mental health, together with their ability to make progress towards their life goals. If you can't trust someone because they stopped making a bad choice, I'm not sure what you're looking for in a person. Personally I'm happy when someone stops a destructive action.

Arguing that you can't trust someone that doesn't drink is anachronistic and founded on specious reasoning. Most people drink and some don't. I can't assume that someone's sobriety or desire to stay in control (they may just be a control freak) is a sign they're trying to hide their true selves from me, because that just doesn't make sense. For some people drinking is fun and cool, but for others it's unpleasant, destructive, irresponsible, and distressing.

* I'm going to interpret a "fake front" as the intention to maliciously misrepresent and deceive for some sort of personal gain at a loss to someone else.

Hehe.

It's a big step to admit that your knowledge in human nature is just bad.

The most wrong decisions I have seen were made because people thought they knew other people better than they actually did.

We had a saying in socialist/communist Poland.

Who doesn't drink is a rat (informant).

Of course lots of informants were drinking, because alcohol is not magic honesty elixir that makes you go against your vital interests. It just makes you less restrained in pursuing what you want and not remember it.

Just to offer my own insight on the subject.

I'm 28 years old and haven't drank a drop of alcohol in about 10 years. I still go clubbing until the sun rises (only when certain artists are playing, not a regular night).

I don't drink for various reasons. I don't like the taste, I get no enjoyment from being drunk or tipsy and I dislike the lack of control.

Almost every friend I have, and a long list of strangers, have told me while drunk that they will never drink again. I've lost count of how many times I've heard it, it's kind of funny. I've also had people open up to me much more when they are drunk and they know that I'm not. More-so than I've noticed them be with other drunk people. I don't know why this is.

Every time I go out clubbing people ask to buy drugs from me. Drug dealers must always be the sober ones.

I've had many people refuse to believe that I'm only drinking water and that it must be for taking pills.

One downside to being in constant control is being hyper-aware of what's going on around you. I notice every little detail of everyone's actions and have to remind myself that they're all drunk and didn't mean to do most of what they are doing.

One nice thing about being sober while going out is I've had to force myself to be comfortable talking to strangers without being drunk. It's made me much more confident. Not drinking has made me face my thoughts and feelings in the moment much more directly. You eventually mellow out after getting over the "hyper-aware" phase.

The quote about inhibition rings a bell to me, although I won't conclude to aim for 0% drinking.

I believe I'm the of the `badly calibrated` kind. A drink or two won't make me drunk, just loose. Like warming up for a sport event. I'm naturally still too introverted, a bit of alcohol disengage that grain of sand that forbids my mind to be in the moment.

Leading to the ability to go with the flow, which is exhausting but in non stressing way. Just like being able to use some part of you you never do. And even when almost drunk, the counter intuitive part, I sleep like a f*n baby, and wake up at 6am ready to run (from hitting the bed at 3-4am). No stomach or headache .. nothing.

I see this as the equivalent of jitter for the tribal part of the self. Alcohol is mostly bad and useless, but a few drops here and there and your system just run smoother.

I think among millennials drinking has been in a steady decline - not sure if its due to the recession and its effects.

I already have difficulty dealing with caffeine at work - and sugar generally due to how common it is everywhere.

I am not sure if I want to add any more drugs to my life. Already sleep is a premium these days - I would never understand why people would want to screw with it further by drinking or doing cannabis.

Grouping alcohol, caffeine, and sugar together makes no sense. Alcohol is estrogenic and inflammatory and dramatically depletes B vitamins and vitamin A. Sugar is simply a clean source of calories; perfectly harmless and often beneficial. Caffeine is quite simply good for you. All the epidemiological studies bear out the idea that it's protective against stress and disease. It improves performance. There's zero reason to limit caffeine consumption.

Just like there were studies in the 70s which vilified saturated fats like butter and animal fat which have since been refuted? You can find a study claiming positive (and negative) health effects for near every substance. Ultimately caffeine is a neurotoxin produced by the coffee bean to repel insects.

I think saying there is zero reason to limit caffeine consumption is a bit of a stretch since we're talking about a drug which causes dependence, reduces motor control and increases anxiety.

I say this as a huge coffee fan. Grind my own single origin beans, brew them in my Hario pour over or Aeropress etc.

But I'm not going to pretend it's this wonderful health drink when it clearly has negative side effects.

Source: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caffeine

> reduces motor control

Does it? I remember reading that it increased reflexes, improves stamina, and increases physical strength.

If that's all true (I might have read an outdated/bad study), then what counts as motor control?

No, I read some similar studies. This one is quite good, btw. (over 30 years, 200,000 participiants)

http://arstechnica.com/science/2015/11/coffee-drinking-linke...

Whilst sipping a tasty brazilian coffee there's a little irony in me checking back on this comment to back up my critique on coffee.

(Gonna lump all my responses to the various comments here, so apologies if I come across as a bit strong.)

Here's what I found regarding motor control:

> There is also some evidence that fine motor control may be impaired as a function of the increase in anxiety

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12204388

From the aforementioned Wikipedia article:

> Caffeine in plants acts as a natural pesticide: it can paralyze and kill predator insects feeding on the plant

Regarding my comment on it being a neurotoxin. Caffeine is a central nervous system stimulant. You're basically ingesting plant insecticide which in turn stimulates the nervous system, causes the adrenals to release adrenaline and causes a heightened alert response as well as many other positive AND negative effects. Hence my remark.

Source: http://brown.edu/Student_Services/Health_Services/Health_Edu...

Most of the research I've seen promotes its health benefits in narrow isolation on one particular facet of human physiology. I haven't seen any evidence that could conclusively sway me towards going from 1 cup a day of coffee to say 4-6 which apparently is the amount a lot of people drink.

My own feeling on coffee is that like anything which has pros and cons it should be drunk in moderation.

Neurotoxin for insects = terrible evidence of toxicity in humans. We go by evidence of toxicity in humans, and all evidence shows it isn't toxic in the doses people consume it. If you want to say we haven't discovered the secret terrible cancer causing agent in coffee yet, but just you wait... Well it's going to take a lot of evidence. There are lots of controlled studies saying it's pretty good for you.

I think what you're picking up on is a distrust by analogy. In the past we thought some things were safe, but they weren't (smoking etc). But the opposite of being ignorant about the effects of chemicals we ingest isn't to suddenly say everything is unsafe. It's to test everything. And we have tested caffeine, and it's safe.

   caffeine is a neurotoxin produced by the coffee bean to repel insects

The source you quote (Wikipedia) doesn't call it a neurotoxin, nor can I find a source that calls it neurotoxic to humans or other great apes.

Were you thinking of nicotine instead? It certainly serves that role against insects for the tobacco plant.

Nice Try Grey - we know you love coffee ! [1].

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTVE5iPMKLg

Excess of anything is bad. Hell, even drinking too much water can kill you.

You might want to do some more research into sugar :)

Ray Peat, isn't it ? :)

> I would never understand why people would want to screw with it further by drinking or doing cannabis.

Because life is more than bottom line productivity.

One of my college professors (I think) has a saying:

"Life is not an optimization problem"

I wholeheartedly side with the author, in terms of alcohol consumption. I generally regret more than a glass of wine or 2, if for nothing else than that horrible stupid feeling that I likely did something I will regret. I get guilt hangovers...

but grass, man, that's what makes tiny niggledy piggledy details of an API interesting. That's what makes me take "one more crack at it" when I'm tired and shit's not working.

Coffee is merely a poop-inducer. Productivity in my life is related to grass consumption. I quit about 4 times in my life and even tried a sober winter in the arctic circle. Least productive most self-indulgent moping time of my life, that last 10 month experiment. What I did was cutout tobacco 100%. Now I feel great. I can run up hills, smoke a pipe, cough my lungs out, and I'm cleaner for having smoked it! see, cannabis is an expectorant (by itself, NOT adulterated with even one flake of tobacco, which is a cough suppressant) so it self cleans, never mind that any resinous deposits contain potent anti-cancral agents...

anyway- in my book, cannabis is in the healthy category and is consumed during all waking moments and generally my sleep life is better than my wifes, who doesn't smoke cannabis.

I would lump diet and exercise in with consumed drugs in terms of the net effects upon the endocrine system and energy:

typical unhealthy eating style: jam it in poorly chewed, pour some acidic liquid in on top to help it "digest" even though we then complain of stomach acid and eat calcium (tums) after drinking yet another acidic liquid (coffee) and meanwhile wondering why sitting in a chair 20 hours a day plus such eating habits are leading to chronic constipation

contrast that with eating a healthy balanced diet with mostly fresh plant matter of some sort, stretching frequently, practicing deep stretching or yoga of some kind, frequent exercise involving sweating, consumption of copious amounts of good water...take the time to chew properly and eat small amounts of food slowly and then you will note greater absorbance of nutritional elements and more peace in the digestive tract.

you are a brain athlete. start acting like it.

I get the impression that the OP has underestimated the effect that giving up meat may have on these changes as well.

I have no idea what proportion of credit can be attributed to that change alone but it must surely have had some effect?

I almost completely stopped to drink alcohol. The inital reason was the headache I get from it the day after. But especially the effect on my psychic wellbeing is tremendous. I experience much less anxiety and muss less depressive or aggresive moods. All in all I feel much more stable.

The price? Participating in nightlife is much less fun. I know a few people who are teetotal and can have fun with buzzed people. I can not. Is it worth it? Yes, for me it totally is. I do not miss drunken nightlife at all. There are enough alternatives to have fun and to sozialize with others.

I liked this piece, it wasn't preachy.

Personally I've cut way back. One day I just realized it wasn't fun like I remember. Not even sure what changed.

It's interesting to see how defensive people get if anyone suggests not drinking isn't that big of a deal, even in this thread.

I for one am monitoring this thread very closely.... I was admitted to hospital on Christmas day with acute Pancreatitis, and the advice after that is to avoid alcohol for good. I've accepted that, but am interested in the article and comments here because I used to be an extremely regular drinker. Not to get shitfaced per se, but it was a useful relaxant and sedative...

Sure hope I get the sort of boost in energy and productivity that he mentions in the article.

I did quit drinking for about 9 months during my masters year at university and I have to agree with a lot of what the author is saying.

I felt more energetic, I slept better, I was a lot more organised and productive, my hobbies felt more interesting and engaging, I saved a boat load of money etc.

I hadn't felt so good pretty much ever. The reason for this has to be that nearly all my social interaction since the age of 15 or so had involved at alcohol (or weed and other stuff to some degree) and while I don't do 'the other stuff' really anymore, most of my social interactions still unfortunately involve drinking. I've never really been one for 'night life' as such, but I do enjoy a few pints in a quiet pub during the day time so I can chat shit to my friends.

Out of all my good friends (say about7 or 8) there are only 2 that I socialise wityh sober. Usually we spend the day in a cafe in town playing board games which is awesome. I drink with these two guys a lot too, but we don't have to like I seem to with all my other friends.

I'm really considering quitting the booze again, just to get that feeling back that I had last time I did. I'd never felt so good.

A quarter of a down payment for a condo came from not drinking over 2 years. And he lost 75 pounds. He must had been one heavy heavy drinker to be wasting so much calories and money on it!! Good for him to quit on it.

From the perspective of not drinking by default, it's pretty funny to see someone's impressions after trying it out for two years. Nearly everything mentioned is relateable. Although it can at times be shocking to deal with the inevitable treatment detailed in #3, it's my favorite social effect of not drinking. Most people will respect you either more or less, and they'll let you know about it.

I can definitely appreciate #3, having faced many incredulous questions when I refuse drinks at social events, but I think most of the author's claims are greatly exaggerated. Your mileage may vary.

Believe him. I've heard 3/5 of the comments he mentioned and more.

If you start working out 3 times a week, going to bed earlier and eating more healthy, you will notice a big change in how you feel no matter the drinking (depending on amounts of course). Good for the OP though that he has overcome something that was big for him. I am just not sure about the title of this post and the reasoning that it is _all_ due to not drinking.

Well ... With all due respect. The primary incentive for a man in nightlife is girls. The guy on the right most likely didn't get much of a chance in that area. The guy on the left might enjoy sober nightlife quite a lot. Girls prefer sober men.

> I remember everything that happened during the events

I don't get this. I know alcohol seems to erase memories for some people, but i've never forgotten anything i did while drunk. Something genetic maybe?

You have to get to cockroach-level-drunk before it might happen.

I've lost memories of most or even entire gigs I've been to before because I drank too much.

The next morning I'll wake up and remember getting to the gig, buying a drink and watching the band's opening track or two then everything is just a blur of images.

At that point you realise you're wasting your money if you can't even remember seeing the thing you paid for.

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