The Rise of Return-Anything Culture | Hacker News Reader

The Rise of Return-Anything Culture

theatlantic.com

42 pointslxm41 comments

Another oblique example of the Peltzman effect: make something less risky (purchase) and people will take more chances (in this case, purchases they might not otherwise have made due to worries about an untrustworthy vendor, questionable product quality, or just buyer's remorse.) Same goes for credit cards that have strong chargeback and false-charge protection policies. If you know there's virtually no risk, you'll make that purchase you otherwise wouldn't. Very important for enabling things like online commerce to happen initially (and probably allows it to continue as it does.)

Well its more than that - people "buy" several sizes of the same item and decide which to keep (or none). For clothing its the new fitting room.

The same exists in Germany for many years, as there is a law allowing customers to return goods bought online within two weeks. Shoppers abused this regulation a lot (I think H&M had problems with this), so that the rules got changed lately: you need to state a reason and certain items are excluded. Here is a somehow recent article in german about said law http://www.br.de/themen/ratgeber/inhalt/verbrauchertipps/kun...

Edit: Amazon even started to block accounts when they returned too frequently (link in german) http://www.golem.de/news/verbraucherschutz-amazon-sperrt-kun...

The Atlantic article doesn't mention Germany, but is has been a issue for years over there.

The same is true in the Netherlands, customers can return something within 14 days (in fact I think they only have to initiate a return within 14 days, the retailer may not receive it for a while). The retailer is not required to pay for return shipping, or to refund the initial shipping costs. Many retailers do, however.

Recently I've been buying one of the most likely-to-return things I regularly purchase (running shoes) online. Two out of four have been returned, and the seller (Zalando) reimburses shipping costs and pays for return shipment. Hopefully the have negotiated some nice rates with the post office...

As a person staying in a country without US-like return policies, I'm incredibly jealous of the choices American consumers have. Out here, its more like "buy it if you want, we can't open the packaging for you to see how it feels in your hand and we won't accept returns unless it is defective (or you are exchanging it for something more expensive)".

It's a real tradeoff. On the one hand, a liberal return policy is great for consumers. But if its abused its a source of enormous fraud and waste. Unfortunately I doubt there any good solution to the problem.

Doesn't Amazon ban you if you abuse their return policy? Especially if you have Prime which causes them to pay original _and_ return shipping

That requires tracking individuals, which doesn't work for brick-and-mortar stores (yes, those still exist... ;).

you very much get tracked by brick and mortar stores, not all but many. Just did a return tonight, and once again had to give them my information in order to complete the return. depends on the situation of the return, whether you had a receipt or not, whether you were already on file, or if you had paid with credit card and they could track that.

And all those caveats are why Amazon can catch return abusers while brick and mortar stores have a much harder time, and ultimately don't bother as its not worth the effort.

I don't think I've made a return in the past 10 years. If I'm not sure I need an item, I don't buy it. If I get an inappropriate gift (wrong size, etc) I'll give it to Goodwill.

I'm glad you're so lucky; in the past 10 years I've made many returns solely due to product defects. Recently I had a door knob that wouldn't install and a printer that tripped the circuit breaker when it warmed up. Sometimes you can exchange but then you run the risk that the next item will be equally defective.

Not a single thing was broken? I had particularly bad luck with Amazon this December and received four different items broken when I opened the box.

So far, no. The only one I was nervous about was a ceramic cat water fountain, but it arrived fine.

I have had discs from Netflix arrive unreadable/broken (yes, I still do the by-mail thing as I get consistent picture quality even on Saturday nights). I'm not sure if that counts as a store return though, as I just drop it in the mail and they send me a replacement.

I live in an older house where parts arent always the same sizes as now. I learn to buy a couple of the nearest best guesses and return the less better.

Regarding the premise: Liberal return policies used to be rare in the middle of the 20th century—something that a few smaller retailers offered as a perk.

I'm curious how much this applies say pre-WWII era (before the majority of goods were produced far from their sale). Maybe I've got some Hollywood-influenced idea of what life was like, but I would think a small town would have some sort of a general store where refunds would be no big deal (within reason). This would probably be less of an imposition when the store owner knew the majority of the customers. Even the big-city department stores would probably take back merchandise, since there wasn't exactly any concept of opening a shrinkwrap or a restocking fee. Unless you had something like a tailored dress, I don't see why a late 19th/early 20th century American store wouldn't have a liberal return policy.

Also, in terms of shipping returned items, I believe that the "money back guarantee" was a major selling point of catalog-based retailers such as Sears Roebuck, specifically to compete with local department stores.

Someone with actual historical knowledge should weigh in, but it seems to me like the mid-20th century was the first cultural shift in return policies, and the present decade is a shift in the other direction.

Frank & Oak ships a box full of men's clothing in Canada every season and you return what you don't want. I used to do this before just getting bespoke suits/shirts made. Rogue Territory denim in LA also has a good return policy and free hemming/repairs if you pay return shipping.

I've only been hosed trying to return broken fitness equip from Amazon, since I didn't bother reading the fine print about only allowing US domestic customer returns

Generous return policies in the US have historically been significantly more prevalent than the author states. Stores like Nordstrom have accepted anything a customer would return up to and including tires which the do not and have never sold. Mercantile stores had a similar policy. Same with LL Bean. REI until recently had unconditional returns. North Face has repaired 20 year old products for me. Returns for credit only were primarily only enforced in specialty retailers and independents.

Of course warranties and returns are figured in to the balance sheet of every company. It's not really free. The cost of such policies are baked into pricing decisions. Ultimately it is one component of a retailer's value proposition.

I have only returned a few items in my whole life and all of those because of product defects. Flip side: my brother returns many items every month and I am surprised that he does not get, somehow, blacklisted as a customer. He does spend a lot on consumer items so maybe he has not tripped a bad customer alarm because of the large volume of stuff he purchases.

My question is how much do consumers like my brother cost consumers like myself due to increased costs? My brother is a great guy and I hope that I don't sound like I am dumping on him, but it would be nice if customers like me got some sort of discount.

Alternatively, he's buying loads of stuff so he should get a discount compared to consumers like you who hardly buy anything.

+1 true enough! Thanks for the alternative viewpoint.

Within the European Union (EU) returns for online sales are affected by the Distance Selling Directive: http://www.columbia.edu/~mr2651/ecommerce3/1st/Statutes/Dist...

Few years ago there was an extended return period for goods from a local eshop. I think it was up to 4 weeks instead of 2 (normal in EU, IIRC). Friend of mine was thinking about getting a few GPUs, power sources and a motherboard, mine litecoin for 4 weeks and then return it.

In the music business, folks talk about the "Guitar Center Rental" where you buy some gear from Guitar Center, use it for a performance, then return it the next day. Needless to say, it's frowned upon, and I wouldn't do it myself.

I was just about to reply "is that even possible", in disbelief.

But then I read https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/consumer/changed-your-mind...

If you buy online you can return a product, even if it is opened, within 14 days of receiving your order, with a few exceptions like hygiene products or CDs/DVDs.

TIL.

Well also very often a retailer's return policy will be more generous than is required by law because their research shows them that it ultimately increases profit. In the US you can expect to be able to return opened and slightly used merchandise. It's easy to abuse, but it doesn't get abused nearly as often as one might think. It's frowned upon socially to buy something with the intent of likely returning it, except in some cases like online clothing stores where the nature of the product being purchased and the method of purchase necessitate returns (in this case it could be said that the returned product was defective for the purposes of the customer).

This was actually a big problem at Costco, which allowed turns on electronics after any amount of time. People would buy a TV and use it for a year or two and exchange it for a bigger, better one. Their old policy even allowed 6 months on computers, which, as you can imagine, plenty of people took advantage of.

They cracked down a few years back but are still very generous.

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/17350641/#.VogfljYhKW0

I've always wondered if anyone ever returned a wine bottle after tasting it. I've never dared trying.

I have. On the very rare occasion, the wined is corked. I get an exchange, not a refund.

I've always wondered how obvious corked wine is. Having I think never tasted it. Makes me paranoid I'd be wrong.

It is more obvious to some people than others. Many people just assume its bad wine but will drink it anyway.

Is it seriously vinegared taste or just weirdly pungent? I'm betting I'd drink it anyway cause I didn't know better.

I do love a good sipping balsamic.

No it is not vinegar like at all, the wine tastes pretty tasteless, but there is an unpleasant smell, does smell a bit like a cork might taste.

The odour is similar to well-used running shoes.

Cork is the only reason why you would normally return a bottle of wine. Even in restaurants. They will probably allow you to return it if you dont like, but it's not the reason why they ask you to taste it. It's for the cork.

Most restaurants in the UK serve house wines from screw tops, but they still ask you to taste it when they bring it to the table. Is it just to make it seem fancy?

may just be me, but if your waiter is playing sommelier with a screw top house wine then yes, it's just to seem fancy :)

Yeah thats just to make them seem fancy. Again most restaurants will allow you to return a bottle if you don't like the taste of it but it's not why they ask you to taste it.

Mostly to seem fancy I think, although a wine can be bad in a screw top too (otherwise we'd see more of them).

You don't taste the wine, you check if it's corked.

i have, from whole foods. the wine had gone bad.

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