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'All You Americans Are Fired'

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Exactly this also happens in Canada.

A business (usually a chain like Walmart, McDonald's, Canadian Tire, etc.) opens and wants to pay staff minimum wage. No Canadian will take that rate of pay, because the standard of living it provides is too low, especially in high cost of living areas like the North. In that case the business should either pay more, or it doesn't have any business existing.

Instead those businesses have a rubber-stamp deal with the government to bring in foreign workers, who they can exploit with the power of deportation for years. I personally have been to houses where 2, 3 or 4 entire families are living in a single house, because that's all the can afford.

So the final result is that local Canadians don't have a job, the standard of living for everyone in Canada comes down, and (yay!) those businesses make ever more profit, in a location where they have no business operating.

(Disclaimer: I myself am an immigrant to Canada and went through this process. Yes, I'm complaining about the hand that fed me. I'm a Software Engineer, I was told by my local member of parliament the best way to immigrate was to work at Walmart for 2-4 years because they always get approved.)

Ski resorts are notorious for doing this as well. Also a casino I worked at in New England did this- they bused in undocumented asian immigrants from NYC and paid them in food and under the table to do their cleaning, laundry facilities, etc. They would work for two weeks, sleep in shifts in this local motel and then take the bus back to NYC to send $$ back to their families.

>Ski resorts are notorious for doing this as well

Very true. The pressure from the big resorts in BC are the reason that Australians under 31 can get unlimited 2 year work visas, as opposed to the one-time 1 year visa they used to get

> The Labor Department ultimately ordered the Westin Kierland, which has a championship golf course, multiple pools, and a 900-foot “lazy river” spread over 262 acres, to pay a total of $13,500 ...

Right. So what incentive do they have to stop doing it in the future? It is not even like speeding where you get points added to your driving record and insurance premiums go up. $13k in case Dept of Labor finds time to look at them closely again is really just emptying the take-a-penny jar by the front door for them.

> Around Moultrie, the resentment goes both ways. ...

That is a very effective tactic. Get workers to hate each other, it gives them someone to focus on -- the other group, so they put less blame on the policies or employers.

It really highlights a truism we sometimes forget if we read too many inspirational biographical one-of-a-kind success stories: businesses, in general, are soulless and will lie, cheat and steal to pad their profit margins so long as they don't get punished. If they can skirt or bend the law, they will. If they can break it and not get caught, they will. They must, because that's what the free market is -- if it makes them more money, they are forced to or be pushed out of business by someone with fewer principles which act as a crippling liability.

When you hear businesses complain about a lack of supply, it's not about a lack of supply, ever. It is bald faced lying with the intent to manipulate the market. Flood the supply with labor and the price drops -- econ 101. Let the people race to the bottom. We've seen it in tech for years; we also see it in farming. In farming it hits home quite a bit harder because these people aren't making $80k instead of $100k, they are being fired and become homeless instead of barely making enough to survive.

Yep this is simply a "we can pay workers with threats of deportion instead of dollars", except the police doesn't actually search much, if at all, for illegal immigrants. So very soon, the threat carries no weight.

Thankfully this would be expensive for the government to fix, which for once will benefit these people.

Reminds me of the 7/11 scandal in Australia, with the same principle : threatening people with deportion is way cheaper than paying them [1].

[1] http://www.smh.com.au/business/workplace-relations/7eleven-i...

>except the police doesn't actually search much, if at all, for illegal immigrants. So very soon, the threat carries no weight.

They don't have to do any searching, the company will see to it [0] that law enforcement knows exactly where the workers are. Legal status is contingent on employment, end that and the worker is no longer legal. I've worked with more than a dozen people that I know aren't here legally. The people who are illegal don't make noise, we all know what will happen if they do.

[0] http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/26/us/26immig.html?_r=0

> So very soon, the threat carries no weight.

It does carry weight if you think of these people as law abiding resident aliens (probably hoping for permanent resident status) instead of potential illegal immigrants.

I respectfully disagree, at least partially, with your statement.

I've been a hiring manager for over a decade in Silicon Valley and my experience is that the market is very competitive now. Most candidates I've spoken with are talking to multiple companies and many have offers pending. Compensation seems to be steadily rising.

That said, I have heard anecdotally from a number of people that some of the larger contracting companies game the H1B lottery system with lots of applications to get people here and pay them below market wages (they add a pretty big markup on what they charge their clients).

I've seen a lot of articles recently with a similar narrative: that there is no shortage in tech and it is all a ploy. It makes for a compelling story with a clear villain, but I believe the reality (as with most things) is more complex.

Yes, but that's a very specific sub-market with unusual characteristics: the demand for good talent exceeding the supply.

This is probably not the case with fruit-pickers or Walmart workers.

Agreed, I was only responding to the comment about Silicon Valley (which has received a lot of news coverage outside this article)

You appear to be arguing against the assertion that the "lack of supply" in Silicon Valley is "bald faced lying" to "flood the market", but you're ignoring the broader point which is still very much true, namely, that if businesses can manipulate the market, they will, and steadily rising compensation is only more incentive to do so. This isn't "just a few bad apples", giants like "Don't Be Evil" Google, Apple (emails personally written by Steve Jobs were used as evidence), Adobe, Intel, Intuit, and Pixar were sued for this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Tech_Employee_Antitrust_L...

Yes, I was part of that class action, I'm very familiar with it. In fact, when my boss went to a competitor, I actually had a conversation with Steve Jobs about it. My impression was that he was more concerned about losing expertise and trade secrets about the iPhone than wages. The ensuing battle over Android underscores this.

I'm not really ignoring the broader point, just responding to the specific point about Silicon Valley.

That's certainly a reasonable concern. I hope you suggested some legal ways to keep expertise and trade secrets, like paying people better, not working them to the bone, not getting embroiled in collusion scandals; y'know, the basics.

Snark aside, I still think I made the legitimate point that whether or not there is actually a lack of supply in Silicon Valley is close to irrelevant to the comment you were replying to. Even when that is actually the case, responding by manipulating the market is still a problem.

So yes, I still think you were ignoring the broader point.

I was pretty rude in the other comment and now it's too late to edit it. Thanks for offering your perspective, it's cool to hear from someone close to that situation; and it's cool to hear the perspective of a non-engineer, non-business person in Silicon Valley.

No worries :) It is an important point that companies incentives are not always aligned with workers and government has a role to play in making sure they are protected.

Hmmm, Google, etc had that lawsuit awhile back? And the h-1b mass hire/fire stuff at various companies for tech workers?

It's not a narrative when you have multiple major employers in an industry successfully sued for it.

Yes, I was at Apple when that happened and remember being told not to approach people from Google. Here's the thing though: Facebook and many other companies here will still hiring. In fact, they were aggressively poaching from Google. So, while what they did was clearly wrong, I don't believe it was a conspiracy to depress wages (Also, Google pays very well and has amazing benefits). Once again, in the media, the simplistic narrative wins.

Interestingly, I quit Apple after that and went to a company that declined the no-hire deal with Apple: http://gizmodo.com/5978223/the-no-hire-emails-that-that-invo....

1) I didn't say it was a conspiracy.

2) An agreement between multiple major employers does depress wages. It is precisely why it was banned in the first place. It wasn't just Google & Apple.

3) It has nothing to do with your personal history and I am tired of citing articles from the Fed, etc basically saying there is no overall STEM shortage nationally.

4) The reality is the shortage is an illusory, regional effect largely due to pricing and isn't a US wide phenomena. The average salary is below $100k according to the BLS and in line with other engineering/technical professions.

1. Fair enough. I wasn't trying to put words in your mouth, I was speaking more to the general theme of articles and discussions on this topic. Their thesis, as I understood it is: "There is no shortage of tech workers (specifically software engineering and IT) and companies like Google are lying about it to reduce wages."

2. Similarly, my comment was on intent, not effect. But this probably won't be a productive line of debate, since intent is hard to prove.

3. I'm a data point, albeit only one. There's a problem using technology industry interchangeably with STEM, which can include things like biotech (which I understand is shrinking because of offshoring).

http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2015/article/stem-crisis-or-stem...

"At the same time that shortages exist, there are areas with surpluses of STEM talent—most notably, biomedical Ph.D.’s. "

Here's another summary of a report that shows:

http://www.usnews.com/opinion/articles/2014/09/15/the-stem-w...

"From 2000 to 2013, analyzing Bureau of Labor Statistics data and adjusting for inflation, median salaries for workers in computer and mathematical, health care practitioner, engineering, and science occupations rose 8 percent, 7 percent, 6 percent and 5 percent respectively, even as those for the average U.S. worker showed no growth."

"My recent report analyzes this phenomenon using a rich database with millions of vacancies posted on company websites compiled by Burning Glass, a labor market analytics firm. There are some 40,000 computer science bachelor’s degree earners each year but roughly 4 million job vacancies for computer workers. In all, the median duration of advertising for STEM vacancies is more than twice that of those in other fields."

4. The tech industry is heavily regional, so the fact that it isn't US wide doesn't seem relevant. Likewise, it's not clear how many professions are lumped into that average.

1+2) Yeah, the problem is I don't really judge people on their intent but rather the effect of their actions and whether it was reasonably predictable in terms of outcome. I feel in this case, it was, and therefore it is a problem they should be held responsible for regardless.

4) Yes, but its a failure to tap into the rest of the country that is the problem rather than a shortage of labor.

---

3) You are confusing an overabundance of non-STEM employment with a shortage in STEM employment. "No wage growth" is abnormal and not be the expectation with the kind of productivity gains we are seeing through technological advancement. [i.e. Technology is advancing at least as fast as it has in the past, therefore 0% wage growth is representative of a surplus]

From your first link: http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2015/article/stem-crisis-or-stem... > Looking at the STEM labor market, Salzman and colleagues concluded that, for every two students graduating with a U.S. STEM degree, only one is employed in STEM and that 32 percent of computer science graduates not employed in information technology attributed their situation to a lack of available jobs.

That right there destroyed your entire argument. Even your only credible source [No, us news commentators aren't credible when various Economists and the BLS contradicts them] agrees there isn't a shortage.

I'm sorry but, frankly, as I've told literally every other person who has tried to argue your position...its simply not reality and the only real backing you have is a single opinion article by a non-Economist who has no clue what they are talking about and that is clear from the first link you provided which basically said your first link can't be correct [unless you are arguing 32% of CS graduates are completely worthless?].

http://spectrum.ieee.org/at-work/education/the-stem-crisis-i...

> Even in the computer and IT industry, the sector that employs the most STEM workers and is expected to grow the most over the next 5 to 10 years, not everyone who wants a job can find one. A recent study by the Economic Policy Institute (EPI), a liberal-leaning think tank in Washington, D.C., found that more than a third of recent computer science graduates aren’t working in their chosen major; of that group, almost a third say the reason is that there are no jobs available.

> And yet, alongside such dire projections, you’ll also find reports suggesting just the opposite—that there are more STEM workers than suitable jobs. One study found, for example, that wages for U.S. workers in computer and math fields have largely stagnated since 2000.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/2014/10/12/silicon-valley...

> SAN FRANCISCO – Top universities turn out black and Hispanic computer science and computer engineering graduates at twice the rate that leading technology companies hire them, a USA TODAY analysis shows.

http://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2014/03/the-myt...

> A compelling body of research is now available, from many leading academic researchers and from respected research organizations such as the National Bureau of Economic Research, the RAND Corporation, and the Urban Institute. No one has been able to find any evidence indicating current widespread labor market shortages or hiring difficulties in science and engineering occupations that require bachelors degrees or higher, although some are forecasting high growth in occupations that require post-high school training but not a bachelors degree.

http://www.bls.gov/ooh/architecture-and-engineering/civil-en... > $82,050 per year

http://www.bls.gov/ooh/architecture-and-engineering/electric... > $93,260 per year

http://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/c... > $77,550 per year

http://www.bls.gov/ooh/architecture-and-engineering/chemical... > $96,940 per year

http://www.bls.gov/ooh/architecture-and-engineering/biomedic... > $86,950 per year

All you've really shown is CS has matured to the point where a good software engineer is on par with other engineering fields in terms of business value and their salary is starting to reflect that. That isn't a sign of a shortage but rather an indication the quality of engineer is more important than the quantity of engineer.

"us news commentators aren't credible when various Economists and the BLS contradicts them"

Jonathan Rothwell is an analyst at the Brookings Institution. The US News article is a summary of a research report he published based on an empirical study of job openings. His research is also cited in the BLS report I linked to, so I don't believe there is contention. I believe his methodology is more pertinent on this topic, since he looked at how long it took to fill positions rather than second order metrics like salaries.

"and that 32 percent of computer science graduates not employed in information technology attributed their situation to a lack of available jobs." "unless you are arguing 32% of CS graduates are completely worthless?"

I didn't read that as 32% of CS graduates couldn't find jobs. It was 32% of CS graduates who couldn't find jobs attributed it to lack of open positions. More below:

"All you've really shown is CS has matured to the point where a good software engineer is on par with other engineering fields in terms of business value and their salary is starting to reflect that. That isn't a sign of a shortage but rather an indication the quality of engineer is more important than the quantity of engineer."

I don't think the maturing of CS is a recent phenomenon. Fred Brooks wrote about quality and output of software engineers 40 years ago. What has changed recently is a rapid growth in the number of CS positions:

http://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/s...

Since it takes time for people to build skills, I'd assert this naturally results in a shortage of more senior engineers. Every company has a distribution of new hires (that require training and mentoring) and experienced engineers. I see this as an argument to increase H1Bs to bring in experienced engineers.

Although we have seen an uptick in the number of CS graduates in the US, it has historically been low, and dropped after the last downturn:

http://www.itworld.com/article/2833432/it-management/america...

On the other hand, other countries like China and India have been churning out significantly more CS graduates for years (Table 1.1):

http://www.engineeringuk.com/_resources/documents/Engineerin...

Which would create natural pressure for CS engineers to move to the US.

[edit: clarified a sentence that didn't make much sense]

> I didn't read that as 32% of CS graduates couldn't find jobs. It was 32% of CS graduates who couldn't find jobs attributed it to lack of open positions. More below:

Yeah, I suppose I was up late and wasn't thinking clearly. Your interpretation might be correct, its more like 6-12%. That isn't full employment of CS grads in CS regardless.

Anyway:

http://www.usnews.com/news/blogs/data-mine/2014/07/16/beyond...

> Only 1 in 4 students graduating with a degree in science, technology, engineering or math find a job in a one of those fields, according to a report recently released by the Census Bureau.

(I'm just using US News so I don't have to go find the Census link again since it moved)

http://www.epi.org/publication/pm195-stem-labor-shortages-mi...

> The Microsoft report projects a labor shortage over the next eight years by incorrectly assuming that only individuals with a bachelor’s degree in computer science can fill jobs in computer-related occupations. Data analyzed for this memorandum as well as other studies show that less than one-fourth to less than one-half of workers in computing occupations have a computer science degree.

I get you have your opinions that the CS degree is a relevant indicator but 75% of STEM graduates work in non-STEM fields the majority of CS developers have non-CS degrees.

https://cew.georgetown.edu/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/Unempl...

> Unemployment in majors related to computers and mathematics vary widely depending on the technical and scientific content of the major. Employers are still hiring technical computer specialists who can write software and invent new applications. But for information specialists who use software to manipulate, mine, and disseminate information, hiring slows down in recessions. We can see the difference in unemployment between people who invent computer technology as opposed to people who use computer technology. The unemployment rate for recent college graduates in Information Systems has spiked to 11.7 percent, while the rates for majors in Computer Science and Mathematics are 7.8 percent and 6.0 percent, respectively.

-----

> Since it takes time for people to build skills, I'd assert this naturally results in a shortage of more senior engineers. Every company has a distribution of new hires (that require training and mentoring) and experienced engineers. I see this as an argument to increase H1Bs to bring in experienced engineers.

Well, that is a completely different argument. However:

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/04/us/last-task-after-layoff-...

> Instead, about 250 Disney employees were told in late October that they would be laid off. Many of their jobs were transferred to immigrants on temporary visas for highly skilled technical workers, who were brought in by an outsourcing firm based in India. Over the next three months, some Disney employees were required to train their replacements to do the jobs they had lost.

http://www.scpr.org/news/2015/06/12/52379/feds-investigating...

> The federal Department of Labor has opened an investigation into alleged work visa abuse involving two outsourcing companies used by the Southern California Edison Company.

http://www.computerworld.com/article/2879083/southern-califo...

> SCE said the transition to Infosys and Tata "will lead to enhancements that deliver faster and more efficient tools and applications for services that customers rely on. Through outsourcing, SCE's information technology organization will adopt a proven business strategy commonly and successfully used by top U.S. companies that SCE benchmarks against."

> The employees say that some of SCE's U.S. workers have been training their replacements, either in person in SCE's IT offices or over Web sessions with workers in India. The IT workers say the Indian tech workers do not have the skill levels of the people they are replacing.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/30/us/toys-r-us-brings-tempor...

> Since New York Life is not a technology company, said Mr. Werfelman, the spokesman, it turned to outside contractors for the upgrade. The company plans to cut about 300 positions, including up to one-fifth of its 1,400 technology workers, as well as some financial accountants. With 9,000 staff employees and 12,000 agents nationwide, New York Life is the largest mutual life insurer in the United States.

Do I really need to go on? Its labor cost arbitrage in the mind of at least three major companies that are employing it on a large scale.

At $DayJob, we can hire good US devs for about ~$60k. That isn't the sign of a shortage just because you can't do it in SV.

This is are talking about h2 which is unskilled field workers not h1b visas

>I've been a hiring manager for over a decade in Silicon Valley and my experience is that the market is very competitive now. Most candidates I've spoken with are talking to multiple companies and many have offers pending. Compensation seems to be steadily rising.

The market is always competitive for the top 15%. But that's not usually the case for the rest of the labor pool.

What the H-1 program means for companies is they never have to train anyone, they never have to hire anyone over 40, and they never have to make offers that include moving expenses.

I don't understand how this could be news to anyone. The US has the lowest labor force participation since before women entered the workforce. The H-2 program, like the H-1 program, is just a way to flood the labor market so employees will never enjoy the sorts of labor shortages that are the only way to raise real wages.

In many cases, landowners are upset that their serfs have deserted the land, and have called for the feds to arrest and return them.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB100014241278873239163045784049...

I'm having trouble wrapping my head around why the H-2 program exists at all.

The H-1B program I can understand: You need talent now, and can't just wait four years for someone to complete the relevant degree.

But for unskilled labor? You're telling me that you can't find the workers you need anywhere in the country? As long as there are people collecting unemployment in the US, you have no business bringing more people in.

(Also, three months' experience required, seriously? What is so urgent that it can't wait three months and so esoteric that it requires exactly three months' training to do? You can damn well hire someone now, and magically, three months from now, they will have three months' experience!)

> You're telling me that you can't find the workers you need anywhere in the country?

Do you expect someone to move from Michigan to Louisiana to perform unskilled labor? Do you have any idea how expensive it is to move, and all for a McDonald's job or equivalent?

>Do you expect someone to move from Michigan to Louisiana to perform unskilled labor?

If it doesn't make sense to move from Michigan, how does it make sense to move from Guatemala?

Because the increase in wages vs Guatemala wages makes it worthwhile.

An unemployed guy in Michigan isn't making any more than an unemployed guy in Guatemala.

Picking lettuce is a skill believe it or not. I know because I've worked in the industry. I don't agree with shady tactics (newspaper ads in other cities etc, I've seen those too). I also know many big farms are often one step away from slavers and abuse laborers for a small profit.

That being said, it's sad but true that foreign laborers do have the skills and desire to do things Americans for the most part don't and won't. You can argue this and claim it isn't so.. it very much is so and I've seen it over and over and I know for certain that it's the case. I wish it wasn't. I don't know what the answer is. I'm not for slave wages. I'm not for importing lots of cheap foreign labor. But I don't want to pay $6 for a head of lettuce either. Maybe you and I don't mind... but for many people that kind of raise in food prices would be catastrophic. Hopefully robotics solves some of the problem shortly. Which of course introduces a whole new set of problems.

>When American workers showed up to apply for a job at Pro Landscape, in Hillsboro, Oregon, they were told they would have to dig a trench four feet long, a foot and a half wide, and a foot and a half deep within five minutes to be considered for the position, according to Labor Department records.

WTF? With a shovel? You could move that much loose soil, but in many types of soil you could not do that without a backhoe at that speed.

That's the point: set people an unpassable test if they don't want to hire them.

> "said Derrick Green, 32, a father of six who said he was fired by Hamilton Growers in 2012 after only three weeks picking squash"

I always wondered, what makes people that have a low paying job want to have so many children, I am making pretty good money but I am still having trouble keeping up with expenses (pre-school, clothes, food) with my only child, I always wondered how do those people survive with 6 kids.

They live a fundamentally different lifestyle than you do.

Work smarter, not harder. I have 5 kids and it's been financially taxing, but I work hard to learn the skills that will pay the most.

Overall I'd say I spend 3-4 hours a day reading up on my field, and it took a lot of practice but now it's just a habit. I learn tons of things though,and it enables me to move from job to job and increase my pay as I implement the things I learn ( and practice on my own for a bit before trying it with a client )

I think you have not read my comment. I am not asking how to make more money, I am wondering how people with low paying jobs can keep up with financial expenses of having 6 kids

And the answer is that having one or two kids isn't much less expensive than having six. Clothes are handed down, as are bedroom furniture, toys, bikes, athletic equipment, etc. And people with low paying jobs usually don't send all those kids to college.

> And people with low paying jobs usually don't send all those kids to college.

Or if they do, they'll qualify for lots of assistance.

There are many potential reasons I can think of. Some are completely off the wall random or wrong:

Poor decision making. You'd be surprised but many don't quite know how contraception works and just believe God will take care of it. Some don't mind because they think they'll get more govt. assistance if they have another kid. There is a status perception in the community. Some think they'll fix their relationship with their partner if they have another child.

One a higher level (subconscious perhaps), you can think people who have not much going on for themselves, and see themselves basically stuck, will give up on reaching whatever goals they might have had and instead choose to procreate, hoping at least on of their children will reach those goals.

At least back in the day I heard families were large, but child mortality and mortality was high too. It was expected many would not make it, so it (again perhaps subconscious) a hedging strategy -- have more children.

More kids don't really cost all that much more than 1 kid.

Especially if you live in a good community: You hardly have to buy anything (clothing, furniture, etc), you just borrow and lend from/to neighbors and family.

Pretty much the only extra expense is food, and food in the US is not very expensive unless you eat out. And once you reach the stage where you buy in bulk prices really go down.

For example: That crib you bought for one kid - you can use it for 10 kids for the exact same price, the same is true for almost all child expenses.

Because for some, children are a wealth far greater than money. Survival with 6 kids not that hard with a different lifestyle, lots of re-use of stuff, sharing, and valuing the important things in life (hint: not karate lessons).

I am shocked at the amount of H-2 visas in California. We have perfectly good illegal immigrants here and always have going all the way back to the missionaries. There is absolutely no reason any company should be denying these people jobs just to import nice fancy government selected employees.

Firing a group of people makes the remaining people have some fear they will get fired too. This might be a tactic to get even more labor out of the remaining employees.

> “We want to go to work and work all day,” said Derrick Green, 32, a father of six who said he was fired by Hamilton Growers in 2012 after only three weeks picking squash.

Holy cow. What kind of agricultural working thinks he'll have the means to support six kids? Sometimes the poor are poor because they are oppressed and sometimes they are poor because they make incredibly bad decisions.

the underlying problem here is not surprising... that foreign workers are more productive. if that wasn't the case the incentive for this behaviour would disappear.

regulating employment to encourage employing natives is not the solution to this problem. it quite obviously hurts the economy and makes that same problem /worse/.

no idea how to fix it though... its a tough one.

> that foreign workers are more productive.

Yeah but we still have to explain why. Home come they are more productive?

Do they have different, more powerful genes. Did they go to cherry picking academy as children? Have longer arms?

They seem to be more productive even living in school buses and pretty terrible conditions!

Of course I am being sarcastic here to illustrate a point. They are productive because they are scared. Put a gun to anyone's head, and they'll be very productive. Threaten their children with starvation back home, and you'd be surprised how early they'll rise and bike through the snow or rain to their job.

The other side of the coin is ugly too. Are the immigrant workers more productive because somehow American workers looking for these jobs are un-productive as a group. That is a tough topic to discuss without getting into dangerous waters. The article brings those comments up from employers' perspective.

the idea that there is large scale organised bullying of migrant workers is so fantastic - i struggle to understand how people can realistically believe these things if they have much real world experience.

i'm sure it happens, but its not the common case... its certainly not organised on the scale that people make out. it would be very difficult to make that sort of thing happen whilst making it in the best interest of everyone involved to not expose it for their own gain... it would tear itself apart from the inside or get caught out very quickly.

> the idea that there is large scale organised bullying of migrant workers is so fantastic

Wait, did I say that? Did you respond to the wrong comment?

> They are productive because they are scared.

that and its context very heavily implies that this is the case, otherwise it explains nothing.

https://news.vice.com/video/immigrant-america-they-steal-our...

See this VICE piece on illegal immigrant labor. Based on interviews they imply they work harder.

I'd guess if it were true, it's because poorer people are more modest, more humble, and take less for granted than American born poor people.

> Do they have different, more powerful genes.

Suppose that were true. Would you expect anyone to get away with saying so publicly?

You're also neglecting the possibility of cultural factors.

> Threaten their children with starvation back home, and you'd be surprised how early they'll rise and bike through the snow or rain to their job.

This is also true. Many of these guest workers need the jobs more than Americans (where public assistance will at least keep them from starvation) do. But in that case isn't it more ethical that the jobs go to those who need them most?

It is hard to think of a country where the citizens are as physically shapeless as those found in the U.S. - the problem is obesity and tied in to the 'corn based' U.S. diet. By the time an American gets to the workplace they have eaten a lot of empty calories. They lack the power to weight ratio needed for hard labour (farm and factory work).

I would never tell a person that happened to be large for their size that they were fat, but I would not be honest if I were to imagine America does not have a food standards problem with consequences. Quality diet is not exclusively for the rich but then it is in certain parts of America.

The rest of the world does not have that corn-based sugar that American food is laced with. Fix the public health epidemic manifested in obesity and the elephant in the room goes.

The rest of the world does not have that corn-based sugar that American food is laced with

Oh, I don't think that's true at all. While the USA does have an increasing obesity problem, so does everywhere else in the developed world. And the UK has a similar problem, not to mention Mexico. Even countries like the Philippines, which until recently had a good diet based on fish and rice, is now experiencing public health issues because of obesity and hypertension. Last time I was in the Philippines it was unbelievable how much Coca-Cola and soft drinks I saw being consumed. Way more than back here at home. And Coke has the place covered in advertising.

Bear in mind that Coca-Cola is made with sugar in most of the world, unlike in the USA where it's made with HFCS.

It's the grams of sugar in Coke that makes it unhealthy. Organic cane sugar isn't much of an improvement on HFCS.

>the underlying problem here is not surprising... that foreign workers are more productive.

You should probably stop outsourcing production for the cloaks that you hide your racism under. They're getting quite thin.

i'm not racist as such, unless americans became a race recently... but i do have a relatively strong dislike of many american cultural aspects and i don't try and hide it at all.

i've met plenty of fine individual americans, but they are vastly outnumbered by people that leave me gobsmacked by various of stupidity, laziness and poor ethics.

In a theoretically ideal world, the solution would be to pay per room instead of per hour to account for the productivity difference.

Abstract: the oligarchy wants slaves to work for them. The US workers want modern wages and living standards. The foreign workers will do this because they think they're escaping at times worse conditions.

This is treason, and these oligarchs should be punished. Of course people are going to go on welfare and government aid in conditions like this. Deplorable, and disgusting. Makes me ashamed to be a citizen of this country.

I think you missed a critical point from this, its not just that foreigners have lower standards, its that they do better work as well. It even quotes a guy pointing out that you get significantly worse value for money hiring americans...

thats a serious issue all of its own and makes the whole situation less conspiracy theory and more capitalism.

The report also pointed out that many of the foreign workers lack the communication skills to defend themselves from mistreatment.

Even if US citizens are in some cases less productive, denying citizens jobs is wrong, and the big point I get from this is that neither the H-2 workers or the US workers should be paid slave wages.

Capitalism is driven by consumerism. What's the point of having it when the people don't earn enough to consume commodities. I think this is part of the reason why our country is trillions of dollars in debt. The distribution of wealth is not balanced at all. Please don't get me wrong. I don't think the nations economic capital should be divided equally among every person, but as it stands the inequality is just off. Clearly all of this explodes into many complex topics. It just hurts to see people with money and power act so poorly.

> It even quotes a guy pointing out that you get significantly worse value for money hiring americans...

Of course you can squeeze more effort out of people you can physically retaliate against (deportation).

>less conspiracy theory and more capitalism.

More like corporate welfare. The machinery of low fines and US Immigration and Customs Enforcement is a kind of subsidization. From an economic perspective, foreign labor is forced to price themselves below their real value because they are left with no choice in the matter.

thats not really the implication. it doesn't require squeezing... the implication is that even if paid and treated the same foreign workers are more productive, and this is very easy to believe.

i'm not 100% defending the companies here, but there are two sides to this, and we all should be experienced enough to know that mass organised bullying of immigrant workers isn't a thing that you can sneak under the radar these days... its always individuals overstepping their bounds - not big organised conspiracies.

it just wouldn't be anywhere near the same kind of problem if the workforce was more motivated and more competitive...

the implication is that even if paid and treated the same

But they are not paid and treated the same at all, this is the point. The foreign workers are threatened with deportation. That is a powerful motivator to work faster and harder.

yes, and even if they weren't, i'm pretty convinced that they would work faster and harder too.

>even if paid and treated the same foreign workers are more productive

>mass organised bullying of immigrant workers isn't a thing that you can sneak under the radar these days

These are assertions without any basis in reality.

>More like corporate welfare. The machinery of low fines and US Immigration and Customs Enforcement is a kind of subsidization

On the contrary, the government is artificially lowering the supply of labor to protect people who make a living selling their labor.

Fines and deportation (and generally any restrictions on immigration) are disincentives to use foreign labor, which is often cheaper and of higher quality compared to domestic labor, the producers that are enjoying a subsidy in this case are laborers, not corporations.

its that they do better work as well

You'll find that people generally do better, faster work when they have a gun pointed at their head.

SO do you think that it's okay for these employers to not pay overtime just because it's physical labor?

They do better work at that wage. You will definitely find well-performing local workers at a higher wage. Responsible and sane local workers won't work for that wage. According to the Wall Street Journal they were paying $750/month plus room and board. That's too low for even the imported workers which is the reason they are "running away." These farmers are essentially recreating serfdom.

Are none of these farmers doing a per unit work? When I was young I was an overseer on a strawberry picking field (where you sit with your knees in the mud and have to try not to kill your back); I made minimum youth pay. I had that job because the farmer was a family friend. No Dutch people wanted to do the actual physical work, so it was only Turkish and Moroccan working at the actual picking. They got paid by the box, not by the hour; they made insane amounts of money from 5 am till noon. Enough to make me do that instead after a while. I could pay for vacations, going out, new stuff while my friends with jobs got minimum youth wage and couldn't do that. AND they didn't have off from noon; I had my whole day.

The same happened in another job at a supermarket where I packed products in the logistics center; the pay was minimum youth wage, but if you picked more than 600 articles/day, you got paid extra and working at night you got extra on top of that. I worked like crazy and made, again, a lot more than the regular adult local/white workers who worked super slow and usually didn't make close to 600. The immigrants and me worked our asses off to make more; most Dutch guys (no girls; it was too heavy to carry most boxes) refused to.

If these jobs would be per hour, I don't think anyone would want to do them well at all. We did them well because it made more money; if you get crap per hour, you wouldn't want them but poor immigrants still do and they work hard to keep them.

There are shows on UK television where these angry (usually racist / Daily Mail readers) people get offered jobs they say 'immigrants took their jooobbss' and they film them; it always ends with them getting fired as they find it too heavy (start holding their backs after 2 hours because they are out of shape) and find the breaks too short, don't have discipline etc. Is that not the same in the US in many of these cases? Like theoretically US workers want those jobs but in practice they just mess them up or don't even want them?

Another reason this exploitation works: guest worker visas can't be transferred to another place of employment. So you're paying a price to be in the country that shouldn't need to be paid.

Buzzfeed Investigation. That should be the best oxymoron of 2015.

I'm still shocked there wasn't a gif in the middle of this post showing me how to cook onion rings smothered in ranch dressing, bacon and cheese.

Buzzfeed has begun to do some serious long-form journalism and much of it is quite, quite good. It's kind of unsettling looking at the URL but it's not the first real article from them. I guess they've found a way to fund journalism -- one article per 300 clickbait ad-filled listicles.

It's crazy but Buzzfeed has actually improved some of its reporting. They have an actual "reporting team" now that do real investigative work and not just listicles. I know that's almost impossible to believe. But they've impressed me with a few articles recently and I was really surprised!

Edit- see this article about how they are hiring actual reporters:

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/columnist/rieder/2015/06...

Even so, I still would rather read someone else. Just because Huffington Post might be considered legitimate now doesn't erase the fact that they started by not paying anyone (or paying then with "exposure" instead of read money).

There always seem to be a couple such articles in Buzzfeed that are so well-written and on a credible topic, that I have to double-check the URL a couple times. I guess this is there way to redeem all the senseless click bait crap they pollute the internet with.

Buzzfeed is not a credible news source.

In this instance they appear to have done their footwork. They requested for comment on multiple items. They said what they asked and that they were not responded to. They showed a history of companies creating terrible conditions (such as the old bus houses) for their migrants. They showed people suing for lost wages after being looked over for a job (such as the horse lady).

While it's true that settling a lawsuit doesn't mean that they're guilty, with the evidence presented it appears that they probably were. It also shows a wide, possibly systemic response to such abuses on the part of the government: slaps on the wrist for violating the program.

Edited: a typo, missing "y" in sentence They showed a history...

this looks pretty well researched.

They actually have a pretty well-regarded "serious" journalism team.

Times is the only outlet with a reporter on the ground, which makes everyone happy until another editor says, “I think BuzzFeed actually has somebody there.” There is momentary silence.

- https://stratechery.com/2015/buzzfeed-important-news-organiz...

Buzzfeed is the only news source here in Australia that has a political reporter in parliament who doesn't appear captured by political interests.

Buzzfeed is a credible news source. It just so happens that they are, so far, the only news outlet to become profitable online, mainly through content for which they have been stigmatized and which you seem to be criticizing. That being said, as the only profitable online news outlet, they have started to build up a rather high-quality long-form journalism team, of which this article is a product. It seems as though clickbait and low-quality content are the unfortunate price modern news companies must pay to make money online in the 21st century. I wouldn't be surprised if Buzzfeed becomes the dominant online news source in the next 10 years, both of trash and real journalism.

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