> free time
What makes you think those people have free time after 12.5 hour days and a commute out to the middle of nowhere?
What makes you think those people have free time after 12.5 hour days and a commute out to the middle of nowhere?
I think that's what the OP called the "privilege". Those that have it, don't see why others can't do the same. It comes from having a completely different world view and priorities. That's why it is common to hear "how come they don't sit down learn to code and become full stack developers, that would be so easy."
Plenty of people I know had access to the same thing (most of them actually), they just didn't pursue it. It's frustrating to hear people make assumptions about myself and others in the industry. I had someone talk about how "disgusting" it was that there were so many white males in tech. Of course, she said this to my face, and I'm a white dude. Believe it or not, it didn't feel great.
It's as though a bunch of people who had zero interest in tech for the last 20 years suddenly think they should have all of the same skills and opportunities as us that have spent our childhoods buried in it.
You probably have a better paying job and more free time than than most people (and as a nice side effect than people who bullied you probably).
The privilege mentality is thinking that you made the decision to go into tech consciously because you knew it was going to be hot in 20 years and will end up with a well paying job. But it sounds like you didn't, just like me, you were poor, and was really passionate about computers. Being bullied (I was too) also had a side effect of isolating you for longer periods of time.
Looking back, I'd like to think of myself as having great insight and a keen sense of predicting the future, knowing that computers and internet will be big and I'd have a way to crawl out of poverty. Then I methodically executed that vision over the next 20 years. But, that would be dishonest, because it is not how it happened. Maybe it did for you...
In general, yeah, it would be great if more people would start coding and things would be more diverse. But sometimes we make it too simple and we re-write memories and history as to how we started coding and think -- why can't coal miners just start writing single page apps in React.js over a few weekends, why can't this part time middle aged mom from Walmart who was laid off as an HR person just write Android apps and make more money.
> why can't coal miners just start writing single page apps in React.js over a few weekends, why can't this part time middle aged mom from Walmart who was laid off as an HR person just write Android apps and make more money
Absolutely, I don't think they can. They don't have the free time, and they're worn out after a long day of work. That's not the same thing as privilege though.
> privilege - a special right, advantage, or immunity granted or available only to a particular person or group of people
My point is that we didn't grow up in some special group that gave us more access than others.
> The privilege mentality is thinking that you made the decision to go into tech consciously because you knew it was going to be hot in 20 years and will end up with a well paying job.
I'm not sure what the "privilege mentality" means (genuinely -- not trying to be salty), but of course I didn't have some master plan to make money in 20 years. I got into computers because they were the most amazing and powerful thing I had ever seen in my life. Does that make me less or more privileged?
I guess my point is: if a person wants to say I got lucky by being interested in something that ended up being world-changing, absolutely, and I recognize that. If a person wants to claim my background is privileged and that's what enabled it all and stake claim to what I have as a result -- well, they don't know anything about me, and there's a good chance they're wrong.
> If a person wants to claim my background is privileged and that's what enabled it all and stake claim to what I have as a result
Which literally nobody does. That's the price of using jargon and expecting everybody to already understand you, and it's what drives me batshit. Privilege is not referring to the genesis of your accomplishments. Privilege is referring to the difficulty slider. And very, very few people in tech are at 'normal', to say nothing of 'easy' or 'very easy'. And it is generally considered gauche to roll one's eyes (and while I don't think you necessarily mean to, I kind of get that vibe a little? not maliciously) at somebody who's cranked up to 'holy shit impossible'.
I am at 'very easy' on that slider, even though I've had things that (to me) feel really shitty: my mom left town when I was ten, my brain doesn't quite work right all the time, and I am punishingly introverted. But the sum of the things working for me that were an accident of birth--I'm white, I'm male, I was born in America--is so huge by comparison that I have it on easy street. And it doesn't diminish me to acknowledge that. It does behoove me to recognize it and to help people who aren't so very fortunate, though, which is why I get real salty around here when the cryptoracist and outright racist contingents start pontificating at length about "the black mentality" or other garbage thoughts. (Which I am emphatically not saying you are doing, but happens all-too-often around here.)
Chew on this: http://danilocampos.com/2013/02/unpacking-my-knapsack-the-pr... - Danilo is an HN poster (one of my favorites) and this is a tremendous thing that's worth reading. Because he hits on something that's important, and I wish was more the focus of these discussions than "pfft, you have privilege," when he says: "Any pride I take in that hard work is dwarfed by the anxiety that I don’t yet know how to help others get to the point where they can work as hard as I have." (A lot of what defensive people see as "shut up" when the concept of privilege is invoked is really "think about what you should be grateful for, and extend graciousness to others." But that requires an understanding of the concepts involved, and...argh.)
Yes, this is a problem. If you push back on it, some people will say "this is Social Justice 101", completely missing the fact that an intro course spends a lot of its time teaching jargon.
> Which literally nobody does ... > A lot of what defensive people see as "shut up" when the concept of privilege is invoked is really
Well, having been in many of these conversations, I can say that yes, there are people who use the word privilege to mean "shut up". There are people who genuinely exhibit more of an interest in clawing people down than in spreading understanding.
Understanding how privilege operates and recognizing ones own is still super-important. It is particularly important when trying design solutions (like hackerspaces, bootcamps, tutorials, etc) to social problems.
But it is also important to recognize that sometimes people just use social justice discourse as a way to feel righteous while carelessly insulting people they just don't like. It is important to be able to recognize when someone has no interest in problem solving and to disengage from conversations with those people.
Thanks for the link by the way.
And there are definitely assholes who use the concept as a bat--one can be an asshole and still be on the right side of history, of course. "Literally nobody does" was referring to the strange bugbear of "you are privileged and thus deserve nothing you have earned," which is generally a (defensively or politically motivated) misreading of "you've been really lucky, you should pay it forward."
Except that I have met many people who hold exactly this belief.
> And there are definitely assholes who use the concept as a bat--one can be an asshole and still be on the right side of history, of course.
How can they be on the right side of history if they hurt the cause they claim to fight for by being an asshole? If you've moved the needle in the wrong direction, you're worse than the people who sit idly by and do nothing, IMO.
> Trying to maybe teach a few people a few things is most of why I hang out around here
Ugh.. gross. You're here for the wrong reasons.
Think about it from the accused's point of view. Yes they were lucky in many ways, but they also worked hard to get to where they are. Then someone belittles their efforts, claiming it's simply because they are privileged. Privileged? Even an average person has to overcome a ridiculous amount of adversity to be successful. Calling someone privileged immediately makes the conversation antagonistic.
Instead, I think it's much more effective to use "lucky" or "fortunate". People won't shy away from those adjectives. If anything, they'll readily accept them. This starts the conversation on a much friendlier note and makes people more likely to work with you.
Edit: Looking up Danilo, I see he perfectly fits my example of ruining discourse by being overly antagonistic. When Y Combinator posted about their efforts to improve diversity in startups[1], he chastised them and misconstrued Sam Altman's words.[2] When Altman asked him for advice and help, Danilo just got angry and accused Altman of trying to get him to work for free.[3] This sort of behavior is extremely counterproductive. It polarizes the conversation and alienates large swaths of potential helpers.
1. http://blog.ycombinator.com/diversity-and-startups
"I am incredibly privileged" is not a statement that offends me, because I actually know what it means.
As per your edit: I don't necessarily agree with the level of vitriol, because I have had good interactions with Altman, but I'm not in Danilo's head and I am not part of the groups who YC was (not so much anymore, to their credit) and HN is (routinely even today, despite the very good efforts of people like dang) marginalizing and attacking. HN is a business asset for YC, and if you want somebody's help to improve your business asset, you pay them. Especially when you screwed up in the first place.
Privilege is a loaded word so I should have used another one perhaps. Privilege is strategic position of advantage. You have or have access to time, money, wealth, power, super-power etc that other don't have. And it is relative.
I'd say tech people have that power compared to workers in an Amazon warehouse. We can work from home, can demand our own salaries, jump to cool exciting companies. Don't have to break our backs. Instead of thinking about what to feed the children with we think what type of Apple watch to buy etc.
So far we haven't talked how each individual or cohort as a whole reached that level. Some worked hard, some didn't. Some got lucky by picking the right field to go on. Some were just passionate about a hobby (me). Some were bullied and got to spend more time inside (me) and apparently OP.
> Privileged? Even an average person has to overcome a ridiculous amount of adversity to be successful.
And now if they live in a Western country, with a great healthcare, good weather, police protection. They are privileged compared to those that are being bombed, raped, or are starving in many parts of the world.
And my point is, looking back those people will say "I am here because I worked hard and everyone one else who is complaining is kind of lazy and should have worked hard as ". I say "it's complicating" and people will often attribute too much to their hard work and discount luck, and other factors -- family connections, good neighborhood, safe area, a good health insurance, maybe a specific literacy program promoted by their government, or other factors (even negative ones like "I was bullied nerd so I was in the house more and that gave a me a chance to focus more on study").
> Instead, I think it's much more effective to use "lucky" or "fortunate".
Those are good to describe how they got to the position of privilege. Which often has a mix of things like luck, hard work, and others. That is why used the word. Using something like "strategic life advantage" sounds a bit odd though.
That's a ridiculous straw man. I don't think anyone in this thread would agree with that statement.
> Those are good to describe how they got to the position of privilege. Which often has a mix of things like luck, hard work, and others. That is why used the word. Using something like "strategic life advantage" sounds a bit odd though.
Of course we all rely on a bit of luck and help from others. But the problem with telling someone you've never met before that they need to "check their privilege" is that you don't know a thing about them. It's offensive in exactly the same way that accusing the poor of being lazy is. If you don't take the time to get to know someone and learn about what they've been through and why they are where they are then you don't get to say things like "you're lazy" or "you're privileged". If you'll pardon my French, "you don't fucking know me".
Nobody here does but it is a common attitude, I have heard it many times from conservative acquaintances and family. This phenomenon was epitomized by the "welfare queen" PR term in US in the 90s and early 2000s, and to some extend I believe "unwed single mother" in UK. It as a figure put up a prototype of how poor people are just waiting for handouts, are lazy and if they just work harder would be successful business owners.
> to "check their privilege"
I didn't say that. Is that a strawman I see ;-) ?
> If you don't take the time to get to know someone and learn about what they've been through
I didn't direct my comments at anyone in particular. I responded to a comment because they brought an interesting point my mind but I didn't accuse or insult them.
What I said in general is that there is a tendency for people who have made it to ascribe their results to their hard work and willpower even if in reality it was a complicated mix of country they were born, parents, good networking (friends), etc.
> If you'll pardon my French, "you don't fucking know me".
Alrighty then...
They don't need to know you to point out that the hand you are dealt becomes the hand you play--and that, statistically and sociologically speaking, the hand of a white man is overwhelmingly superior, almost without exception, to that of a black woman in the United States. It is not, to borrow a phrase, about you. It's about systems, and it is largely accepted that the rush to personalize situations is done by people in a position of relative privilege. Because you want it to be about you, so you diminish that privilege. It's a natural reaction; I've done it too. But it's wrong, and you are punching downward at people who have it worse than you, and you should stop.
> It's about systems, and it is largely accepted that the rush to personalize situations is done by people in a position of relative privilege.
It's about systems and it's about individuals. People who fight for social justice personalize situations all the time. When statistics come out that don't favor their agenda, they shift the focus to the personal level as well. And they should, because we need to all remember that it is about the individual. As much as sociologist and statisticians would like to believe, we do not all fit neatly into well defined groups. It's insulting to insinuate that we do.
Or how about a Roman general picking apart less nimble Greek phalanxes with a manipular legion? Would you apply the word there?
It is more often used to try to stereotype and discriminate against someone, insisting their setting as being higher than others. And when this brought up, the general response is to then say the issue is really a bunch of different sliders, such as one for race, one of gender, one for sex, one for sexuality (and all of these are still simplified to stereotypes). It is often accompanied by an insistence that we pay extra attention to some sliders are more important than others, with the side bringing it up tending to shift focus to the sliders that minimize the view point of the one being told they are privileged.
Privilege is an attempt to simplify complex issues in a manner that benefits certain positions and it can be used as a thought terminating cliche.
For example, privilege being brought up here to detail how it is privilege for some to have turned to computer as a coping mechanism for the abuse and exclusion of their peer groups; that they had free time to focus on computers because their peers didn't want to spend time with them is a privilege.
I see a discussion ensued ;-)
The privilege mentality I define as a worldview (or call it an attitude) where those who have the privilege (it doesn't have to be money, it could be time, social status, freedom, or health, or any other significant advantage) have a hard time understanding the position of those that don't have it.
This usually happens when talking about wealth as privilege. And manifests in examples where rich people will look with disdain at poor people and will label them as lazy or "in charge of their own fate, yet deciding not to take advantage of it" etc. This often happens because they look back at their own lives, and think they got wealthy / powerful through sheer willpower and hard work. In reality it turns out a nice inheritance helped, going to an Ivy League helped, being lucky to invest at the right time in a market worked, having the right friends at the right time worked, etc.
What has happened in that case is the privileged person re-wrote or re-interpreted their own history to make it better and more agreeable story (rather than, well I got lucky and inherited a bunch of money, it ends up with, I set up a successful hedge fund with my college buddies etc).
But I was referring to "privilege" not just as wealth but as being in the tech industry, where wages and demand is much better than other industries. Good programmers can often ask for high salaries. They can work from home, etc. That is not comparing with Donald Trumps out there, but comparing to those that work for TSA, or McDonalds or Amazon.
What often comes out of it is well meaning ideas like "teach coal miners to program" and so on, because looking back it seems like programming is pretty easy and with a bit of free time on the weekend one can easily end up with a 6 figure jobs. In reality things are different and a lot more goes into what makes a person now successful.
The truth, as always, is that it's a very nuanced issue, and we both have valid points. You're right about people who inherit all their wealth. They often lack basic empathy for their fellow citizens and lack the understanding that they didn't truly earn what they have. And I'm right that there are people out there who truly do, against all odds, become successful without much help from anyone else. I think it's extremely important to recognize both of those truths and call them both what they are rather than yelling past each other to push our own political or ideological agendas.
I struggle with this on a daily basis, especially as a former liberal.
That would be pretty much be my answer.
Yeah it is nuanced issue and I agree it is hard to figure out. It is not even the divide between the two people, but even between the same person who was poor and now maybe made it (through a combination of factors: work, luck, etc).
I often have to stop and remember what it was like to ration food or stand in long lines to get bread and so on. And I find myself criticizing like I mentioned others do (why don't they learn to program it is easy or why don't they work 3 jobs, save and invest etc.) it takes a bit of introspection to catch myself not doing it.
> I struggle with this on a daily basis, especially as a former liberal.
I don't even know if am a liberal or conservative. Probably a mix depending on issues.
That a person was lucky enough to turn their coping mechanism for abuse into an above average career is not privilege at all.
For example, when I first started using computers as a kid, it was at a time when less than one in eight households had computers. That's pretty privileged.
> I'm not sure I would describe that as the height of privilege. I spent most of my childhood living in a trailer.
It's not a spectrum along a single axis. You can be privileged in some areas and not in others.
1. you were born a white male 2. magic privilege stuff happened to you 3. you got a cushy job with perks you dont deserve 4. now shut up and check your privilege 5. we need less people like you here
Nowhere in this chart is tens of thousands of hours spent thinking about numbers while non-techie people went to parties to play and drink.
Yep, that reminds me one of Phil Greenspun's smug blog posts from a while back: https://blogs.harvard.edu/philg/2011/01/26/rethinking-99-wee...
There's always a way and all this talk about "privilege" just simplifies the lives and struggles of people into some silly political game. It's just not that black and white.