Amazon Invades India | Hacker News Reader

Amazon Invades India

fortune.com

104 pointstokenadult52 comments

Amazon's service is head and shoulders above any other ecommerce player in India. Despite its late entry, it has largely replaced Flipkart as the provider of choice. This is almost exclusively due to the stellar service and customer support from Amazon. I've had to deal with customer support multiple times due to rescheduling delivery or returns, and have had a 100% pleasant experience. Compared to Flipkart, where the customer support people have very little to zero idea about every non trivial problem, it's amazing how Amazon has been functioning.

Indeed! Amazon does top-notch customer service at scale like nobody else. Everyone else just assumes that it is impossible to scale up something like this and they let the a previously great experience slip as they grow into a faceless organization. Good business is all about getting these hard things to scale.

Actually I've had 1 unpleasant experience out of 3 so far. I wanted to buy an item at a lower cost(because it was a lot cheaper on other sites) and asked an exec about the same. He could've said something like "Just monitor the prices, they might come down" and I would've done it, instead he said "I'll personally keep a tab on the prices for you and will intimate you in case the price falls to your expectations". While it definitely looked like a false promise, I assumed from all the online reviews that he actually would follow up. But what alerted me was a BuyHatke monitor when the prices fell down. The prices stayed low for two days and I waited to see if the customer exec would really follow-through, but he didn't.

There was no real loss to me, but it was just an unpleasant experience. I am pretty sure that wouldn't happen if it was a refund/return.

Some CS reps might not actually do whatever is promised, and that's a cause of frustration on top of the customer loosing trust in Amazon, which is not acceptable at all.

You should consider writing to them cis@amazon.in, and if you know the name of customer associate that interacted you with, the better. You could also, alternatively, utilize Amazon's chat-based customer service, as you can actually "keep a record" of things they said and things you said. If what was promised isn't delivered, you can sure make enough noise by directing the query to cis@amazon.in, and/or jeff@ and amit@

That has not been my experience. I think snapdeal rules and yes amazon is better than flipkart (in deliveries).

For anyone wondering why ecommerce is so bad in India, I'll share my experiences from living in the UAE which has a similar tech culture to India (as there are a lot of Indian migrants).

There is one main ecommerce website, but it sells very little (if any) of the products itself - it's more like the marketplace of Amazon for independant sellers. The problem with that is that you really have no idea who you are buying something from, and if it looks too good to be true it probably is (there are lots of scams). Online payments aren't really trusted in the country so you are expected to pay cash on delivery, which if you are lucky will take less than a week.

The weird thing is that there are some decent physical shops, I bought a Dell monitor when I was there for ~€180 and everywhere else I looked (even abroad) had it for €200+. Most things were usually at least 20% more expensive than the EU, which is weird as they have no tax there :-)

I bought a Roomba while I was there from Amazon DE, even including international express delivery and import taxes it was about €150 cheaper than buying it locally.

A few months ago, Amazon's competitor Flipkart started asking users to order via the app rather than through the browser. That's when a lot of my friends and I switched to Amazon. I never really understood the reason for insisting on ordering via the app.

Apps don't have a good way to convey that they are using HTTPS, so I don't like the idea of entering my credit card details in an app. Most internet banking gateways in India aren't yet mobile optimized, so that's inconvenient too. (Internet banking is a popular alternative to debit cards in India; merchants re-direct users to their bank's website where users can login and agree to paying the merchant. It's actually a lot more convenient than credit cards because you only have to remember your bank account's username and password.)

That is the most brain damaged idea I have seen from an e-commerce player yet.

I've stopped using Flipkart on mobile because of that. Only use it from my laptop now.

Yes, Flipkart's force-pushing of the app is the final (and weighty) straw the pretty much stopped me from using them at all. Pretty stupid decision at a time when competition is only getting fiercer.

same reason I switched. I let them know, too.

True... I'm still still trying to figure out in what scenario push towards App-only strategy makes sense.

The only reason to switch from flipkart to Amazon was that flipkart is pushing the app in users throat. I dont know what the use of the pushing a user witj "Open in App" Ad when i am on desktop and shopping experience is bad on mobile device. I want to read reviews on internet on side while I shop. Also most offers are on App . I dont know if the flipkart wants sell app or goods. But recently amazon is also starting to push that path as well here is what i started doing. Read reviews and note the the price on PC and go to local reatiler ask him to give at that price or 50 bugs extra as it is immediate delivery it is ok to add 50 bugs and take it. But till now i amazon did not disappoint but shopping in app, no way.....Because apart from small screen ad unable to see product pic clearly. Every app in mobile is able to intercept communication and keystroke etc... an no way of know if bank transaction is secure like gold padlock on PC. And i dont if there is a issue like cross site scripting on mobile as cross app because after i finish banking transaction that session statys and flipkart comes on top.

The article doesn't mention anything about imports so I'm wondering what is the situation in India.

Here in Brazil, I don't have a lot to complain about the e-commerce websites, they do a good job. The import taxes on the other hand are ridiculous.

Amazon.in seems to have very competitive prices compared to Amazon.com. A LG Nexus 5X sells for $348 vs. $329 in the US. In Brazil, the same phone costs around $580 USD. That would've been around $775 in the beginning of the year (BRL depreciated quickly this year due to internal turmoil).

I initially hoped Amazon would disrupt the Brazilian market but it seems the taxes are the biggest problem and they can't do much to fix that. In the retail area, they will get fierce competition since that are many entrenched players already. That might be a reason they have limited themselves to selling books and Kindles for now.

Electronic items are India's third largest import (after crude oil and gold). The duties are generally around 30%, and generally electronic products, like smartphones, tablets, computers and others, do cost a lot more in India when compared to the U.S. There are some exceptions, like hard drives, that cost almost the same. Maybe it's also a matter of how the manufacturers price things in different markets.

Amazon has deep pockets and they are doling out incredible offers on top of great customer service. Once they establish dominance or once the smaller players run out of wall street sponsored discounts, the Amazon offers will also disappear. Then it'll be a fair comparison.

There's a grim side to the booming multi-billion dollar e-commerce - the delivery guys. They are carrying huge, heavy bags on motorcycles [0][1], rushing to meet their delivery targets, braving the elements, earning a measly salary with little or no health benefits. There should be laws to regulate how much weight/size of bags they can carry. They are delivering smiles to millions of homes, but they can hardly feed a family.

[0] http://media2.intoday.in/btmt/images/stories/jabong_660_1222...

[1] http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-vZh5ZbMGlpU/U8qEZ9eN4wI/AAAAAAAAAX...

P.S. Some more articles on the state of delivery guys :

http://www.wsj.com/articles/why-e-commerce-can-be-a-big-pain...

http://tech.economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/internet/how-j...

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/tech/tech-news/We-have-no...

> Once they establish dominance or once the smaller players run out of wall street sponsored discounts, the Amazon offers will also disappear.

My experience as an Amazon customer in the US has been contrary. Amazon is actually one of the rare companies that values loyalty and rewards existing customers. Most other startups (even ones outside e-commerce, like Uber/Ola etc. have offers that aggressively target new customers, but rarely offer anything for existing customers) Compare that to the experience of an Amazon Prime account holder. What started as free 2 day shipping now covers free 2 hour shipping, access to lots of media etc. at no added charge. A majority of the offers and discounts are also made available to all customers, not just new ones. Is this not the case in India?

The economist podcast covered similar issues, and noted that there is ~4% credit card penetration in India - that the local delivery services had had to work out how to take cash on delivery as the main means on income - I shudder to think of Amazons CFO shuddering to think of that.

I will be surprised if Amazon can do more than maintain a token presence outside of major cities, but I am sure they have plans.

They already do. I live(rather work from home) in a remote village in Southern India. Ordered a Nikon camera recently which the local stores said will take atleast 7 days to procure, and Amazon delivered in 3 days. The item was shipped all the way from Northern India(Nagpur) and guess what, it was 500INR cheaper on Amazon.

While on one hand I was more than happy to get it in three days and a little cheaper, I also realized that this won't last forever. Amazon's capital has gotta run out at some point in time and the cheap/fast service will stop there.

Nagpur is close to the center of India, not the north.

You have my apologies. We often joke that anything northern than Bangalore is North India!

Well then Chennai is North India!! A lot of people don't realize that Bangalore is actually south of Chennai.

Perhaps the poster meant cultural North India, which (in my experience) is only contrasted with cultural South India, which is comprised of the states in which Dravidian languages are spoken by a majority, namely: Kerala, Tamil Nadu, Karnataka, AP, and Telangana.

I think when people say "North India" what they typically mean is the areas that speak Indo-Aryan languages (as opposed to Dravidian ones).

> Amazon's capital has gotta run out at some point in time

They're famous for being willing to push competitors into the ground on margins, at whatever loss is necessary in the relative near-term. It's very likely they're going to seek to squeeze Flipkart on margins until they're struggling to operate due to a very high cash burn (with venture capitalists eventually unwilling to keep pouring red ink down the drain).

I'd bet that Amazon views India as a truly massive future market. They really can't crack China properly, and likely never will. India however, they can crack. They'll pour vast resources into it to build out a dominant position. If you told Amazon they can own a dominant position in India for the next 30 years by spending $10 billion today, they'd write that check immediately.

They're the world's largest retailer by market valuation, and carry $14.4 billion in cash (with the ability to raise whatever sum they need at any time they need it). Further, AWS has become a cash generating monster, that will fund any adventures Amazon wants to undertake over at least the next decade.

No chance they run out of capital.

Makes sense once they are able to setup kiosks in villages and have employees there to order on behalf of customer with COD, you have largest profit making reailer in the world. If they can work ith few FMCG like Godreg,Uniliver, P & G and Nestle etc.. along with Indian Postal and local couriers.. you have great monster. Indians does not care about anything other than price (durability/quality) so 1 rupee less than local guy on kiosk then people will buy from kiosk guy. I wish i had some capital to try this out..

EDIT: Also Indians still share in village so even if amazon says they will give only 10 Hamam soaps but at 10% less or 10 Horlicks with 15% less, people will pool and buy.

>Indians does not care about anything other than price (durability/quality)

"do not care"

That's a solid point :-) and largely true, though a generalization. Changing some at least among the younger generation in cities, though.

Amazon's threat is Jack Ma. And Jack Ma is bigger than Amazon.

Jack Ma , will be supplier for Amazon, i dont see them having skills to be front end retailer

Indian here. For people from my class (middle to upper-middle), Amazon has largely replaced Flipkart (the market leader), and eCommerce has largely replaced local commerce.

Payment is a massive pain in the ass though. Getting credit cards is a nightmare if you don't have a traditional job. You need 2-factor authentication for all transactions, which is just a ton of work.

I often end up using 'cash on delivery' just because I'm too lazy to enter my debit card details and do the 2-factor authentication

Flipkart still has a better presence outside of the big cities, but Amazon is catching up, fast.

Why don't use PayPal then?

Because PayPal doesn't support the two step authentication that Indian banks require.

I use 2FA on my Paypal account.. ?

You're close: Paypal is a bit hamstrung by regulations in India, but the domestic mobile wallet industry has been growing. My prediction is that China & India will (continue to) leapfrog credit cards in favor of mobile payments. (P.S. not linking here because it's a bit off-topic but I've added links to my article & slide deck about this in my HN profile.)

Paypal doesn't allow you to hold balances in Indian Rupees. You can only use dollars.

My guess is that India will likely leapfrog from cash to mobile payments - so in the long run that shouldn't pose as much of a problem to Amazon or any other vendor. There is already a lot of startups and established companies offering mobile wallets, and I believe many of then are setting good traction too.

> I shudder to think of Amazons CFO shuddering to think of that.

Care to elaborate? Cash-on-delivery is a common payment method in Japan, and Amazon Japan and many other online marketplaces have been using it for years. It can be problematic operationally, but how is it worse than credit card settlement for the finance department?

Payment at the convenience store is another common method here, and it's arguably more problematic than COD as the marketplace/merchant has to wait for the payment to go thru before shipping.

Control I guess - how to be sure what was due was collected, passing it back up the chain, vulnerable to fraud and violence, and of course no nice customers fronting you billions in free cash each day.

Credit cards aren't the only way to pay on the internet, and also not the best way, as long as you have a working banking system.

In Germany for instance credit card ownership rates are fairly low, still Amazon is doing really well using direct debit.

> obligatory two-step authentication

That sounds like a good thing to me.

It sounds good. Except as was the case today for me where you enter an OTP pin and its expired (HDFC Bank) because each bank has its own OTP system.

Keep in mind this is something that any bank can use (3D secure). It is up to the merchant on whether they want this or not. There is an additional discount on the transaction fees if you use this.

Problem is of course, every bank has their own interface that doesn't always work. Customers give up on their transactions. You can't have subscriptions. You have no choice on whether you can disable OTP, even though you are the customer. You can also not save your card (keep in mind you can have direct debits anyway for subscriptions via a bank debit agreement)

It also sucks when you want to buy something and your phone is dead. It also makes integration quite tedious as you have to support dozens of payment methods.

Honestly, it sucks. It's nice to have that sense of security but it comes at the cost of taking care of 1/100 customers ad the expense of 99 of the others by forcing them to use 2 factor auth (or more if you look at the lost ones).

I'd trade all of those inefficiencies for secure 2FA, anyday. YMMV.

You can if you want, simply ask your bank to require 3D secure for all transactions. Can't say it'll always go through as not all websites/apps will support it.

All I'm saying is it would be good if there was a choice to it as a customer holding a cr/dedit card

Amazon has to sail through most racist people on earth http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/05/15...

Ah..the bullshit map!, read the footnote as well as the follow up. It has more shades to it and is not black and white. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2013/05/17...

The past month I realized (wish it was earlier), the arbitrage that existed between the same book between Amazon USA (I am a Amazon prime member) and India - India is cheaper but ~60%. Once I realised it I have ordered one book a day :)

Having said that Amazon India, charged me twice for an Iphone ordered and I just happen to catch it. I chalk this up to process tightening and not malice.

I have visited India a few times and one of those times I found myself in Bangalore and visited the famous Higginbotham's bookstore and bought $100 worth of math and computer textbooks that would likely would have set me back at least several hundred dollars if not over a thousand.

From the article : "The Tata Group is launching its e-commerce platform in February!"

It's probably far too late in the game. If it has Croma (the electronic store arm of Tata) like prices, which are comparatively higher than other stores, then there's absolutely no hope at all.

AMZN return policy is the best

[Long rant ahead] Amazon India's chat customer service has usually, but not always, been helpful and easily reachable. That's really a great comfort when it's needed. On the other hand, I don't know if Flipkart even has something as prompt and useful. The rest of the players hide behind email addresses (no phone numbers) for customer support. If there's one thing competitors must learn, it's the value of putting customers first and providing them assistance as quickly, as conveniently (for the customer) and as efficiently as possible.

> He (Piacentini) and Agarwal tell me Bezos has given them wide freedom to run India without his intervention, accepting that it could take years for the billions of dollars in investment to show returns. “His solicitations are never, ‘When will we make money?’ ” Piacentini says. “It’s always, ‘Are we investing enough?’ ”

I don't know what to make of this. Maybe Amazon India is investing a lot in getting more sellers on board, in improving its warehouse and fulfillment operations, and marketing. But one area where it has been severely and pathetically lacking is in the "findability" of products and refinement of searches for what someone is looking for. I find it baffling, exhausting and extremely frustrating that Amazon India cannot even get "sort by price" correctly. If you know exactly what to search for, it's possible that you might find it. If not, prepare to wade through multiple pages because a "sort price - low to high" may have some lower priced items later on or on the second or third page. It's really shameful and unbelievably terrible that a company like Amazon cannot get this right! As an example on search refinement and filtering, you want to narrow searches only to hard drives that are 1TB and larger in size? Choose that option and find 500GB and other sizes also listed in the results. Wade through the list one again and waste your time. I have repeatedly provided feedback on these for the last few years, but have not seen any improvement at all. If anyone in Amazon.in is reading this or if Jeff Bezos bumps into this comment, you really need to get your act together seriously and hire some competent people who can get this done. You people don't seem dedicated to what Amazon claims it wants to achieve. Stop wasting our time and putting us off your site! Look at Newegg if you want to see how to get product search and filtering done better.

On to other players, my recent favorite is Paytm (paytm.com). It's also a market place. It does not have an Amazon India like customer service option (just an email address). Its product descriptions and details are glaringly inadequate in many cases. Its search and refinement options are close to Amazon India, sometimes better and sometimes worse. But where Paytm excels is in cashbacks on products. Unlike cashbacks from Amazon or Flipkart where you'd get a gift card to shop from the same site, Paytm cashback can be used for paying phone bills, paying cable bills, booking Uber cabs, buying bus tickets, and several other things from other merchants. Its digital wallet comes in handy to transfer money to or request money from other people instantaneously.

After Amazon, I think Paytm is the one to watch out for in the Indian space. It has deep pockets (all those cashbacks are really mind boggling) and will trounce others very soon. In my experience, Flipkart has always been the most expensive for products, and its push for the app only shopping part is highly immature and not thought out well at all. People who do compare prices across other sellers will migrate out of Flipkart. My experience with Snapdeal is very limited, but its somewhat similar to Paytm in lacking product descriptions and details. I've also read some horror stories about product delivery, fraud, etc., online (this didn't happen in my purchase experience with Snapdeal though).

180030009009 is better

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