Gujarati Capitalism: Going Global | Hacker News Reader

Gujarati Capitalism: Going Global

economist.com

81 pointsomarkassim38 comments

Since we are generalizing, its worth mentioning the tendency of Gujratis (or most Indians) to be extremely insular and selfish:

"Trust and honesty remain essential to Gujarati-dominated industries. Mr Mehta, himself a Jain from Palanpur, whose diamond company has a turnover of $1.8 billion and offices from Antwerp to Tokyo, says that, despite the size of the business, it is still “all based on handshakes and words, with no contracts”. "

These people have traveled from Antwerp to Tokyo for 200 years...yet Palanpur is a shithole just like every other town in India. They have seen all the benefits of a free and modern society, but have not lifted a finger to bring 1% of those ideas to the town where they live.

Surat which processes 90% of the worlds diamonds is also a shithole. Its just yet another massive Indian city with no modern infrastructure, garbage and sewers everywhere, and had a plague outbreak about a decade ago!

While these globe trotters make millions which they stash, how much money do you think the rank and file of diamond polishers make? Do they have adequate health benefits and protection against problems like this: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16201206

“We don’t have to deal with government too much, and mostly not with the banks, as most money comes from families,” says Dinesh Navadiya, the head of the Surat Diamond Association. “So there is little scope for corruption.”

No corruption...except massive tax avoidance. It is impossible to run the smallest business in India without running into corruption.

Some might argue these people have no obligation to improve society and that's Ok. But any article writing about the pros, should also write about the cons.

Indian Gujarati here. OP is correct. Gujaratis are good at making money in a host society. But the original towns etc. in Gujarat are shite-holes, and they've not cross-pollinated all the progress of their host societies into their source society. Also, as far as helping non-Gujaratis is concerned, fuhgeddedaboutit. To me, the implication is that they essentially lack societal vision, altruism and out-group empathy. (I'm considered an outcaste, a "wannabe sell-out" because I question why no Gujarati billionaires do more for Gujarat -- or India or Africa -- than Bill Gates.)

As another person of Indian origin, I'd have to say that unfortunately this is true of the vast majority of Indians and not just Gujaratis.

You could not have put it better!

Another article along a similar vein: http://qz.com/459422/how-indian-families-took-over-the-antwe...

Its disgusting to hear all these people come for is business opportunities, refusing to speak the local language, adopt local customs, assimilate, or give back to the community at large, while the host society sees jobs shipped to India and tax revenues decline.

You quoted economist and mentioned Surat as a dump. It might help if you read an article Economist published about Surat, in 2012 http://www.economist.com/node/21563412 (last 4 paragraphs )

Excerpt: What it takes A far more encouraging example can be found farther up the coast. Surat, a city in Gujarat of 4.5m people, is a flourishing trading hub that not long ago was a wretched dump like Gorakhpur. In 1994, after a reported (but never confirmed) outbreak of pneumonic plague, it became famous for squalor, gridlock, slums and rotten management. Since then it has been transformed. Effective managers cleaned up. Rubbish was collected and transport improved, streets were swept and public services delivered. Miraculously, the improvements were sustained. Some 96% of residents pay their municipal taxes on time. Manoj Kumar Das, who now runs the city, says that over the past decade the growth in Surat’s population averaged 5% a year, among the fastest of any city in the world. According to his planners, by 2031 it could have 9.3m people, overtaking London.

You complain about "positive generalizations" and yet you resort to generalizations yourself without checking facts ?

As for Palanpur - I don't know much - but fund this: http://www.tripadvisor.com/Hotel_Review-g1156005-d302375-Rev....

I have the feeling it might take another generation of Indians growing up in a global economy for them to realize the advantages of an uncorrupt and morally just society.

Theres still so much backwards cultural stigma thats prevalent in India that I think its just going to take a lot of time for Indians to realize what needs to be done.

This doesn't apply to Bhuj though. From what I hear, the town has unparalleled facilities not found anywhere else in the country all courtesy of its expats and business people.

The confidence with which the author generalizes various groups of people in the article makes me quite uneasy.

We know that this is not permitted if we are attributing negative qualities to a group of people. Why is it then permissible to generalize when we are praising the same groups? In doing so the author is sort of admitting that it is at times logical to generalize groups of people and that there is no risk of prejudice in doing so.

I agree with you that this article makes too many sweeping generalizations but nevertheless it struck a chord with me. I am a Gujarati programmer and have never fit in with any of my family or community members in the realm of career or goals. I have no problems with nurturing personal relationships with other Gujaratis but I just can't connect with them on any STEM topics (except medicine). I closely know probably 100+ Gujaratis but I can't think of even one person with whom I can discuss non-arithmetic math or non-business-related software. On the other hand, I can easily think of a dozen who would love to discuss derivatives (stock market not calculus), marginal utility, or EHR/EMRs.

Growing up in India, I was told that owning your business was the only path to success. In 1990, my dad borrowed a ZX Spectrum from a friend so I could play video games and he was genuinely confused when he found out that I spent all day typing (I was learning BASIC) instead of beating his hi-score in Jetpac. Thankfully, as I learned programming, I got a tremendous amount of support from his Gujarati friends, all of whom wanted me to write DBase III+ / FoxPro software for their businesses. But whenever I came up with non-business ideas, my people just didn't get it. I don't think anyone outright discouraged me when I wanted to write software for fun but they just didn't understand why I would write freeware when I could easily sell it. Half of my years between 15-20 were spent being lectured by successful businessmen on why/how I should market my music player or transliteration software.

This article resonated with me because I finally get just how ingrained business is to my culture. I always knew I was the odd one out and came to terms with that a decade ago but now I realize how others in my community must think of me. Time and again I have chosen to not make money even after I made a finished product. For me, once the product is built, I completely lose interest and want to make something else. For them, I already did the hard part of making the product and am bailing out at the fun part of making money from it.

To any Gujaratis reading this who love hacking for the sake of hacking, I'd say there are dozens of us! Let's keep talking business with family and friends of family during the day and quietly watch Numberphile after everyone is asleep.

Thats a great writeup. I have a followup question. It seems like Gujaratis are looking at everything from business perspective rather than "problem solving" perspective like in SV. Is this true?

If you define the problem as a lack of business or financial success, then looking at everything from business perspective is just problem solving.

I honestly cannot speak for any Gujarati in SV or even tech, but in my experience, I don't think that Gujaratis are significantly different in terms of skills, morality, or values than any other Indian or non-Indian group of people. It is very easy to say Gujaratis are shrewd or follow the old-boys-club tactics but those are just typical human traits passed on culturally and sociologically instead of genetically. The basic Gujarati values mirror the basic Indian values (be peaceful, love everyone, respect elders, help the poor, be studious, work hard) but some are emphasized a lot more than others.

For every commenter in here saying Gujarat is a backwards place, I personally know a Gujarati who has donated large amount of money to non-religious public service projects. My uncle sponsors the education of 10 kids in our village in India and feeds 100+ people on the death anniversary of my grandfather. I am not saying he is a saint, I am saying he is just one data point among the tens of thousands of successful Gujaratis. It's not fair to measure charity, benevolence, and kindness because one's native place is not Singapore or Zurich just yet.

In the past few decades, our village has progressed significantly, with wealthier Gujaratis awarding scholarships to kids in need ( http://www.balasinorcollege.com/found_trust.html ). Is that enough to wipe out poverty from Gujarat or India? Absolutely not. Gujaratis are NOT any different from other people. Few great, most decent, and a handful of bad apples (e.g. Harshad Mehta). I don't think the article was trying to highlight Gujaratis are some uber-exceptional race. It was just highlighting how ingrained business acumen is in the Gujarati ethos.

>We know that this is not permitted if we are attributing negative qualities to a group of people. Why is it then permissible to generalize when we are praising the same groups?

Actually both should be permissible, as both can be true in the statistical and cultural sense.

We're not unique snowflakes as we like to believe. Our culture shapes us in many ways, nicely in some ways, badly in others, and it does the same to others sharing it.

There's a reason why stereotypes exist, beside bigotry and arbitrariness.

I think this movie clip from _Up In the Air_ sums it up best.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_uNPpFZLelE

Indian Gujarati here, so I get a pass for what I'm about to write.

If this article was about whites or about Christians, it would not have a laudatory tone. Instead, the author would be writing about how the "old boys network" keeps others out of lucrative businesses, about how there's no diversity in the top rungs of these companies, and about how "handshakes" are circumventing government laws and taxation. But that is exactly what the Gujarati network is all about. Yes, it is a hardworking group, but also very in-group oriented, and yes, racist.

I'm a Gujarati. My ancestors established businesses in most British colonies at the time, from Ceylon to Hong Kong, from Siam to Réunion, from Australia to the Suez, from Kenya to Rangoon. Our family names are based on places where our dad worked for a living. For instance, my mother's family name is Siamwala (an indicator that my grand dad and his family were involved in international trade based in Thailand).

This article seems more like PR but isn't far from truth. I think, as a community, Jews have probably outdone any one community out there.

In fact, a great many jewish business families in British-India adopted Gujarat, and spoke Gujarati.

Here's another biased take on the topic by a Pakistani journalist:

http://www.livemint.com/Opinion/WaBCEddMLH5DaM0aD5wzbN/Why-I...

And here my answer on Quora on a related question: https://www.quora.com/Why-do-Gujarati-people-make-up-a-large...

That is a very rosy view of Gujaratis. A lot of non-Gujarati folks think of them as ruthlessly miserly and capable of going to any lengths to make money. Surely an attribute that helps in a business, but not one that endears them to the 'host' society.

Be careful listening to that kind of stereotype. It's often promoted by natives who are outperformed economically by immigrants. That builds resentment and can have horrific consequences.

Finding moral fault in others is often just a way to explain their own lack of accomplishment.

Not always, of course. But something to be very careful of.

This is a two way street. You can't expect with the dissemination of ethnic-based propaganda and "pride" type movements that natives or other social groups not to take notice of your endeavors and starts responding to you in kind.

It's good to celebrate success but not good to determine the worth of individuals or social groups solely on the basis of financial assets or business holdings.

This is the real slippery slope you don't wanna step on.

I'm not sure I agree that there needs to be symmetry between compliments and insults.

I think the right approach is to compliment specific groups and people and behaviors; and criticize only behaviors. The specific people/groups who are behaving well will value the personal credit and build on it; the specific people behaving badly can take impersonal criticism without feeling the need to be defensive.

Occasionally naming names is warranted in criticism, but that's the exception.

Aakar Patel is Indian

And also Gujarati.

And also a Troll. (Refer to his pre-2015 mint.com editorials on Gujaratis)

I know that this is intended to be a puff peace about the perceived entrepreneurial spirit of the Guajarati community as a whole but I would have appreciated more if the author took the time and effort to shed some light on the usual failure stories that some members of this community endured and didn't make it abroad.

The author made it sound like every and each Gujarati person is destined to entrepreneurial success and failing and losing are unexpected outcomes in their cases.

Nothing against Gujaratis or Indians in general. I really like entrepreneurial and trailblazing people provided they earned their wealth through legitimate means not questionable or unethical ones but I preferred to read a more impartial analysis or critique of this anthropological topic than this nauseating self-congratulatory Economist article.

I feel there is definitely an element of generalization and survival bias in this article. There has been a recent Patidar reservation agitation [1] in Gujarat, India. The Patidar community, people with the surname Patel (Patels are one of the communities that is mentioned in the article extensively), are losing opportunities in education and government jobs due to the reservations in Gujarat and are calling for reforms with reservations. One of the reasons being the survival bias of the Patel community, that everyone generalizes the community to be very entrepreneurial and successful while ones that are not so fortunate in the community are marginalized with lack of opportunity.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patidar_reservation_agitation

Totally agree with this. We would like to know how much of this is survivorship bias? I have heard enough stories about Gujaratis committing suicide when stock markets or gold market in India go down.

I am reading this sipping dunkin donuts coffee made by gujarati lady.

Here's the problem: once you allow ascribing a particular laudatory quality to a certain group, you HAVE to concede that certain groups have bad qualities. That is, unless group qualities are only good, a claim for which there is no evidence whatsoever.

So... Gujaratis have an ethic of capitalistic success. Are you also comfortable saying Blacks have an ethic of failure, Jews have an ethic of in-group morality, Gypsies have an ethic of stealing, and so on? If you are not, then you are arbitrarily imposing a limit that qualities assigned to a group must only be good. If you are, congratulations! You are now racist.

Of course cultures have attributes - that's what defines them as a separate culture. Not everybody around the world is the same. That would be PC blather. Folks are different, and we can celebrate that.

Your argument is basically slippery slope.

The article merely documents the entrepreneurial genius of the Gujarati community which is worth lauding. Gujarati is not a race.

The article itself contains formulations like "Like the Jews, Chinese, English, Scots and Lebanese, they have come to form an impressive global commercial network.", suggesting that this about more than just the community. At the very least, it must be the values that matter. And once you acknowledge that some sets of values are preferable to others, and that different religions come with different values, you are already very close to sliding down the slippery slope from the original comment.

Of course some cultural values are better than others. Some cultures are highly sexist/racist/xenophobic/homophobic. Would you say these values are no better or worse than any other?

> "Like the Jews, Chinese, English, Scots and Lebanese, they have come to form an impressive global commercial network."

English people as merchants or commercial folks on an individual level, I haven't heard of that. Maybe from Europe the Italians or Greeks to some extent, that's true but English people, I don't think that his/her observation is correct.

The article is referring to these diasporas forming 'global commercial networks', so I think your interpretation is slightly off. Interesting article. Gujarati's are also responsible for some of the finest 'Indian' cuisine around too!

I was arguing that on an individual level English people don't rank higher when it comes to entrepreneurship. I was not arguing that the British Empire wasn't commercially successful or that it didn't manage to accumulate wealth from their colonies if that what you were alluding to in your reply.

English people didn't make it commercially « on their own » but with the help of their state or empire globally and this is a historical fact and thus the comparison to the Chinese, Levantines or Jews who mostly acted on personal initiatives is not apt one.

The English were known as a "nation of shopkeepers"[0].

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation_of_shopkeepers

Gujaratis are not a race or religion, it's you who are taking things to racial level

They're an ethnicity, yes. But you get my point. Native Americans are an ethnicity, but criticizing them as a group is looked down upon pretty heavily.

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