New genetic map of Britain shows waves of immigration going back 10,000 years
independent.co.uk
independent.co.uk
Don't we share a ludicrous amount (>50%) of DNA with bananas? What's the more precise (and less false) statement hiding behind this?
Damage control due to the recently increasing friction caused by massive immigration.
Funnily, as a casual observer I would agree that the English language is 40% French (vocabulary) and 26% German (structure).
Really, the best thing is to remember we're all just human beings, and should try our best to try and look after one another as best as possible.
No doublethink involved, as long as you see history as a continuum, rather than believing in a fixed set of norms (typically your own, no offense) as an absolute ideal "best" transcending space and time.
The same with immigration, then. Psychologically is even worse maybe, because instead of an overtly foreign power coming to conquer your land it's your own very government selling your society.
> it's your own very government selling your society.
It's as much "your" government as it is mine, and I don't feel like they're selling anything, in this particular case.
If you think freedom of movement is bad, do you think capital should also be controlled? If not, why should money be free to flow, but not people? To artificially create "salary jails" to exploit? If you assume that money should move to maximize its potential, then the same should be allowed for people, surely?
Freedom of movement and freedom of enterprise are amongst the highest achievements of human civilization, which we paid for with millions of deaths in the XX and XIX century.
History hasn't ended up yet. I think we're going to see how far the string can be tensed, and whether that multi-culti "solution" isn't the genesis of new strife. Things aren't looking bright.
> If you think freedom of movement is bad, do you think capital should also be controlled?
Actually yes, in moderation. I used to lean libertarian, but not anymore. But that's another talk.
> then the same should be allowed for people, surely?
Why? Capital at least doesn't behead you, people do.
This is off topic, but what is up with the Roman numerals when referring to centuries?
I tried googling it but came up empty. I can't find any authoritative source for this being a thing in any particular dialect of English and at least one person I've seen using this was a native Russian speaker. Google results only indicate that this is common in Spanish and maybe Polish.
Am I missing something? Is this a thing in American or British academia? Is it part of some popular newspaper's house styles? As a non-native speaker I find this incredibly peculiar.
For instance, my country only started existing in 1991. But we have written records of people speaking our language and thinking of themselves as us going back to 800 AD. Germany can trace its origins straight back to The Holy Roman Empire, the ruling classes of which spoke German, thought of themselves as Germanic, had the same crest as Germany uses now, and started existing as a state in 962 AD.
And so on.
It's less about genetics and more about language.
So you get situations where 'low skilled' jobs pay peanuts, but end up being taken by people who send the money back abroad where the amount is more valuable than in the UK. It can sometimes lead to people from poorer backgrounds not getting these basic jobs because the employers know they'll want a wage they can actually live on.
That said, that's not really an issue with immigration specifically; anyone who immigrates to the area and knows about the minimum wage and decent working conditions will also find it more difficult to get a job.
With price a consequence of demand, <all> Britons on average salary (about $38K pa) have given up any hope whatsoever of buying their own home thanks to demand exacerbated by an influx of immigrants unprecedented in any of the last two centuries. Indeed even professionals earning around $150K are very hard pushed. Of course planning permission & other factors have played a role in this but unquestionably, Britain is overcrowded and folk-in-the-street looking for jobs and accommodation are suffering thanks largely to a smug rich elite who accumulate moral brownie points opining on the value of immigration. I would have thought that enough is enough.
All this is redolent of vitamins: "If Y mg of vitamin X is good for you then Y*10 mg is ten times as good for you!". Really?
Britain is not "overcrowded". If you don't want to live in expensive London, then move.
The main reason we need working age immigration is our ageing population. Our retiree population is set to massively inflate over the next few decades. Unless our otherwise shrinking working age population wants to be financially buried under the costs of supporting them, we need to support our working age population size and the only way to do that is through immigration.
[1] http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v519/n7543/full/nature1...
[2] https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2055577/nature14230.pdf
Here's a similar map for all of Europe that isn't as fine-grained as OP's: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2735096/figure/F...
Do you think these kids will "integrate": http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3362342/Babes-arms-I...
?
..Of course we are all humans, but that doesn't say anything about what you have been taught since birth, what you believe to be true, your values, etc.
This is not "immigration". It's invasion by 80% military age young men with unknown past, and very questionable beliefs.
I can't believe this has to be said on HN. When you find a bug in one of your app's features, you don't remove the feature, you fix the bug.
Edit: As a sidenote, linking to the daily mail as a source for immigration-related matters is akin to linking to timecube as a source for physics papers.
Edit 2: Someone replied to my edit, but deleted their post and I didn't reply in time, so posting my reply below:
The Daily Mail doesn't so much reflect "the feelings of a large portion of the country", as much as "the feelings of a large portion of the country" happen to be easily manipulated by outrage-driven media. As for integration failures, one of the main drivers is islamophobia. Removing that really does come down to treating each other as human beings instead of being afraid of "The Different Ones".
As for the quality of the daily mail, I don't know, but those photos have been posted on various news sites around the net. They are not disputed at all.
Are those kids actually coming to europe in waves of immigration? If not, why do they matter in talks of immigration?
And let's imagine for a moment they are - is denying them entry the right approach? Leave them in whatever neighbouring country they happen to be in at the time? These kids can be fixed. They're not wielding weapons because they're inherently evil. They were raised in a terrible environment and need to be treated like other, non-immigrant kids raised in terrible environments. We don't give up on people just because they're from somewhere else.
We are all humans. This doesn't merely mean that we should treat each individual as a human being - it also means that we should treat our neighbouring countries as we would want our own country to be.
I didn't say they are "inherently evil". I say they are being taught since birth to be evil, and they naturally internalize it. "Being from somewhere else" being a problem, is totally irrelevant, I didn't say or believe that, and you are distracting from the real issue of what are their learnt since birth values and beliefs.
"We are all humans." Well, my VM is running Linux. Maybe I should try win 3.11. After all, "they are all OSes". Maybe I should try to "improve" and "integrate" it. Or maybe I will continue running Linux.
I would actually like to think that I'm having a discussion with someone who is above such ridiculous analogies. I wouldn't even say "racist" but you did just compare "immigrants" to "a primitive operating system nobody wants to use".
To address your other point: I'm french, and my sister lost somebody in the Paris attacks. This doesn't mean we have to close ourselves down in a bubble.
I'll elaborate on this another time (maybe when you come up with better arguments) - but the mentality of closing borders for fear of what might come through is akin to never going out for fear of hitting a car. And car accidents happen a fuckton more than terrorist attacks.
a) you need to have the seed of having an open mind, that can help you later on. If you learnt to have a closed mind, then it's a fortress new ideas can't come in.
b) There is a upper limit of mixing proportions, above which the incoming mass of people is just too high, they stick together, and don't change / mix up with the existing population. This invasion is too big, too fast, for possible integration.
What do you think will happen when "too many muslims" cross the border? Sharia law? Even in Turkey, a country nearly 99% muslim, only 12% favour Sharia law. (source: http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/12/07/muslims-and-...)
You're there trying to imply that the paris attacks are a result of immigration (which they were not), as if you knew anything about my country. Exactly the same thing you do to muslims, you do it to me.
I've lived in romania, so I definitely recognize your mentality there. Looking at your comment history, you seem to almost exclusively attack other people, and most of them are on matters of ethnicity. I don't need any further proof that you are not, overall, a good person in terms of culture and acceptance.
If after all this -- all those comments, those attacks, those outrageous claims... if after all this you still yourself think you're in the right? There's nothing I can do to convince you you're not.
"Turkey - Child Marriage" (PDF)
http://eeca.unfpa.org/sites/default/files/pub-pdf/unfpa%20tu...
And turkey is not a good country, I never claimed it was (hoooly hell did I not claim that). So your numbers are absolutely meaningless.
And why is that our responsibility?
This is outrageous. I were forced to emigrate due to war, poverty or prosecution and happened to be accepted in a country that is not my own, I would have to be 1) extremely thankful of my hosts for saving my life and 2) morally obligated to obey their laws and customs. This is basic morality.
> come down to treating each other as human beings instead of being afraid of "The Different Ones".
This is naive to the point of irrationality. The social unrest that is spreading through Europe is not _caused_ by yellow journalism (they just profit from it), it's driven by actual contact with radically different, incompatible cultures.
Because humans are humans, regardless of where they originated from. It's our responsibility to take care of people, period. I'm not american but remember "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free"?
Here's what I don't understand. When it's about blacks, the mentality comes down to being so scared of "being racist" that people want to stop using the word "slave" in database/hardware lingo. But when it's about muslims, it's not our responsibility to integrate them, they are all guilty of terrorism until proven innocent, they should be thankful we even accept them in our country (even though, really, we don't), etc..
The contrast is so fucked up. I just don't get it. And often enough it's the same people talking both talks.
> The social unrest that is spreading through Europe is not _caused_ by yellow journalism (they just profit from it), it's driven by actual contact with radically different, incompatible cultures.
{{cn}}. Most people who will complain about muslims have never met any, if they don't actively entirely avoid them. I'll give you that I can't prove all of the unrest is directly caused by toilet-papers, but I can show you a LOT of people who only know the term islam as a synonym of terrorism because the daily mail is the only place they actually read about islam.
I think that only westerners, with our pathological altruism, are silly enough, or brainwashed enough, to think that way. The rest of the world think of THEIR people first, as is natural. And any government has to take care of its citizens, not play world saviour.
But my point stands: if you emigrate, it is YOUR responsibility to integrate.
> because the daily mail is the only place they actually read about islam.
Surely Islamic terrorism existing in the first place is a factor to take into account. People aren't worried about Shintoist terrorism for some reason.
It's both parties' responsibility. Don't get me wrong; it's mostly your job... but the government also has to step in and make the same efforts they make towards their own citizens. Anyway, those seem to be details; I think we agree on this point more or less.
> People aren't worried about Shintoist terrorism for some reason.
And in some unnamed country, a majority of people are not worried about gun violence despite it taking far more lives than muslim terrorism. It's all a blame game on video games, mental health, etc...
The majority of people are worried about what their media makes them worried about. I'm no different - I nearly exclusively worry about what I read about. I can't worry about things I don't know about. My only choice there is to seek as much information as possible, to avoid merely mirroring the opinion of whoever wrote the piece I read.
I did give suggestions to improve integration. My edit#2 was directed to your previous (now-deleted) post. But above all you make it sound like nobody's integrating, this is not the case. A large majority of muslims are integrating fine despite how hard the xenophobia and islamophobia is making it.
What about our own citizens that aren't integrating? The poor, the unemployed, the criminals, the homeless, the mentally ill... do we kick em out too because they failed to integrate? Is it always "100% or else"?
So I guess it comes down to a question of which came first - the islamophobia or the violence justified by Islam, and you're claiming it's the islamophobia?
I somehow doubt there are many toddlers indoctrinated by ISIS among the refugees fleeing from a conflict in a large part caused by ISIS. A lot of people seem to be under the illusion that the victims of ISIS that have been driven from their homes must, because they are mainly Muslims, be ISIS supporters. But I'm afraid that's the level of coherence I've come to expect from in anti-refugee rhetoric.
I find it fascinating how readily people will act and behave based on what ISIS does. Here's a riddle for you:
Step 1: Let's assume for a second that the marginalization of muslims leads to more hostility and radicalization.
Knowing that ISIS benefits from the radicalization of muslims, what do you think happens when their actions lead to islamophobia, which in turn leads to more marginalization? (Go to step 1).
If you think they're blind to this cycle, you are a fool.
The truth is that the majority of the victims of Muslim terrorism are actually Muslims. More children and teachers were killed in an attack on a single school in Pakistan this year than were killed in Paris. Every single one of those children and teachers were Muslim. Most Muslims all over the world are perfectly aware of this. Just this week Islamists captured a bus in Kenya and ordered the Muslim occupants to separate from the Christians so the Christians could be killed. The Muslim passengers refused, shielding the Christians with their bodies and saying they would have to be killed as well. Eventually the Islamists gave up.
Ultimately we are all either part of the solution or part of the problem. We need to work together and support each other to solve this. It turns out most Muslims want to be part of the solution. How about you?
Polls and anecdotes are not as good as internet discussion fora for getting to grips with how a particular culture actually thinks.
Especially when your main source of news is the daily mail.
All an internet discussion group tells you is what those particular people on that specific discussion group thinks. Anyone who believes otherwise is beyond help.
Norway Offers Migrants a Lesson in How to Treat Women
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/20/world/europe/norway-offers...
Where multiculturalism and human rights collide...
We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10776481 and marked it off-topic.